Legend Preview/RQII Changes

[gran_orco]

**In a charge: is the charge attack included in the movement action or separate from it?
E.g. character with 2 CAs wishes to charge an opponent 5m away. Does this cost him 1 action with 1 action left or 2 actions (1 for the move, 1 for the charge attack.)? The example of combat seems to imply that the charge attack is part of a move action.

***One irony here is that someone who runs faster and attacks at the end of the move does less damage than someone who runs more slowly and makes charging noises.

I think that you can move ever your "basic moving score" before attacking in a CA, ie 8 (-armour penalty), unless you had exceeded your maximum move rating.

Besides that, you can ignore the example as it was errated, or you can charge (not sprint) to add more damage modifier, or not attacking at all when you declare that you are going to sprint.

 

[Stainless]

Hmmm, looks like the finessing of MRQII into Legend still hasn't solved the ambiguities and lack of clarity. Another opportunity lost?

 

[Xemides]

Hi there,

I am new in the flock, and am totally confused with sprinting and charging:

•Charging (see page XX): The character moves a total of 3x his normal Movement and
attacks along the way. During the round, all the character’s Combat Actions but one must
be spent on Move, but in each action he moves up to 2x his normal Movement.

In the first line there is written 3x his movement rate, and later 2x in each CA. That is more then the movement x3 in the fiorst row.

• Sprinting (see page XX): The character moves up to 5x his normal Movement. During
the round, all the character’s Combat Actions but one must be spent on Move, but in each
action he moves up to 3x his normal Movement.

And again, 3x per CA is more than 5x.


Can soneone declare is for me ?

 

[Greg Smith]

Hmmm, looks like the finessing of MRQII into Legend still hasn't solved the ambiguities and lack of clarity. Another opportunity lost?

I tend to agree.

Nothing has changed to clarify combat styles, additional weapons and additional combat actions, etc, etc.

 

[PhilHibbs]

Nothing has changed to clarify combat styles, additional weapons and additional combat actions, etc, etc.

The rules for additional weapons and bonus actions have always been clear, you get a bonus action, that's it. The fact that many people choose to restrict that action to the item doesn't make the rules unclear. Also combat styles aren't really unclear either. There is room for flexibility, that isn't the same as unclear.

 

[PhilHibbs]

There was a contradiction in the MRQII rules about either casting time or MP costs for sorcery, and this was not in the errata - ha this been found and fixed? I can't remember where it was though.

 

[Piperdog]

As to combat styles, I have to agree that they are a bit vague. What I mean by this is that if someone compares sword and shield style vs single sword style, clearly with the rules as written, no one in their right mind would pick single sword style. If you pick sword and shield, you are just as good with the sword when you are without a shield as you are with one. In essence, pairing two different weapons or weapon and shield gives a free skill. These are the things that irritate me. In my game, someone trained with sword and shield style for example, suffer without their shield when it comes to parrying. The rationale behind this is that someone who rarely parries with their blade, and instead parries with the shield all of the time, would not be as proficient at parrying with their sword blade, so they suffer a -10% in parries (they would be fighting their muscle memory to raise the shield to block). A single sword style, while not gaining the benefit of the shield, suffer no penalty on parries. This is just an example of some of my house rules to clarify the concept of styles.

 

[Greg Smith]

Nothing has changed to clarify combat styles, additional weapons and additional combat actions, etc, etc.

The rules for additional weapons and bonus actions have always been clear, you get a bonus action, that's it.

When do you get a bonus action? When you draw it? Do lose the bonus action if you drop it? Can I start a combat round with 2 CAs but get an extra one when I pick up an additional weapon? Does fist count as an additional weapon? Do I have to have a combat style with that additional item? Can it be a pen knife?

Also combat styles aren't really unclear either. There is room for flexibility, that isn't the same as unclear.

Why would I pick 'sword and shield' over 'sword'? I know the answer is that is cultural, but Legend is supposed to be generic. And there is a whole S&P article about professional styles that isn't even mentioned in Legend.

The rules aren't unclear, but both rules could have done with some expansion, IMHO.

 

[gran_orco]

Hi there,

I am new in the flock, and am totally confused with sprinting and charging:

•Charging (see page XX): The character moves a total of 3x his normal Movement and
attacks along the way. During the round, all the character’s Combat Actions but one must
be spent on Move, but in each action he moves up to 2x his normal Movement.

In the first line there is written 3x his movement rate, and later 2x in each CA. That is more then the movement x3 in the fiorst row.

• Sprinting (see page XX): The character moves up to 5x his normal Movement. During
the round, all the character’s Combat Actions but one must be spent on Move, but in each
action he moves up to 3x his normal Movement.

And again, 3x per CA is more than 5x.


Can soneone declare is for me ?

:?: :?: :?: 3X is more than 5X ????
An example: a normal human has a move rating of 8. He can move a total of 8x3=24 metres per round while he is charging, but he can move each combat action a maximum of 8x2=16 metres. Ie, you could move:

• First action: He moves 6 metres
  second action: 16 metres (he can't move more than this because it is his maximum per CA)
  Third action: he cannot move 16 metres because it would exceed his maximum per round, so he can move only 2 metres for a total of 24.

 

[Xemides]

:?: :?: :?: 3X is more than 5X ????

I men in each CA 3x is more than 5x in the whole round. If you have 4 CA, 3x2x8 m would be 48 m, more than 40 m.

If of course the 5x8 m is the maximum Distance per Round, it makes sense.

But that makes is difficult to understand what is the sense in x3 per CA if the charakter cannot move it in a typical Round.

 

[PhilHibbs]

:?: :?: :?: 3X is more than 5X ????

I men in each CA 3x is more than 5x in the whole round. If you have 4 CA, 3x2x8 m would be 48 m, more than 40 m.

If of course the 5x8 m is the maximum Distance per Round, it makes sense.

But that makes is difficult to understand what is the sense in x3 per CA if the charakter cannot move it in a typical Round.

Seems obvious to me. Each action can be up to 3x, but the total in the entire round cannot be more than 5x.

 

[duncan_disorderly]

Dual Wielding: A player may claim an additional CA for a second weapon, shield or “useful” item in his or her off hand, but the extra CA must involve that weapon, shield or item.

Except that this is neither the rule, nor logical. If I have (and can use) a weapon in each hand then I have an advantage over you even if, in a round I never actually attack with it. It's mere presence is a threat which you need to consider, and gives me a potential to use it for parrying which may/will limit the attacks you can sensibly make.

 

[duncan_disorderly]

You can attack only if you charge, not if you are sprinting. Read carefully.

Charging (see page XX): The character moves a total of 3x his normal Movement and
attacks along the way; sprinting does not give you this option. In the exemple, although it says that Alaric is sprinting, he is moving 8x2=16m per action, not 24 as he could do with a sprint manoeuvre.

Note: There is a difference between moving and attacking and, moving and attacking along the way.

If you are 12m away I can declare a charge, attack you and carry on to end 4m beyond you (based on 16m charge action), or I can Sprint 12m then attack - I can not continue the move beyond the attack, even though I could move further if I hadn't attacked.

 

[duncan_disorderly]

Ok, for the clueless of us out here, what were the previous rules for charging? What's the thinking behind using all but one of your CAs in a charge attack? Wouldn't it be dependent on the distance closed?

Honestly curious, as the rule seems kinda odd from my perspective.

Tom

The previous rules, although they didn't say so in so many words were based on the assumption that a "Charge" was something like a mounted knight striking a target as they galloped past, rather than a berserk axeman running full pelt trying to breach a shield wall...

When used in this style the charge makes sense - a character moves their full charge distance in the course of a round, and both the charger and defender only get the chance to take one action as they pass...

 

[duncan_disorderly]

:?: :?: :?: 3X is more than 5X ????

I men in each CA 3x is more than 5x in the whole round. If you have 4 CA, 3x2x8 m would be 48 m, more than 40 m.

If of course the 5x8 m is the maximum Distance per Round, it makes sense.

But that makes is difficult to understand what is the sense in x3 per CA if the charakter cannot move it in a typical Round.

The important thing to remember is that in RQ/Legend Movement is Per Round, not Per Action. If you have a Move of 8m and 3 Combat Actions you can move 8m in the first action, and then not move at all in actions 2 and 3, or move 3m in the first action, a further 3m in the second then the remaining 2m in the third - or any other combination of moves you choose, providing you don't exceed 8m per round.

The same approach applies to Charging and Sprinting - there is a maximum distance you can move in a round - you can split this up amongst your actions as you like, but now you are additionally constrained by the "per action" limit. So if I can sprint 40m in a round, (5 x move) but can't go more than 24m in an action (3 x move) then moving the full 40m will take up at least two of my actions (I could sprint 20m in each, or 24m in the first and the remaining 16 in the second etc).

I'd suggest the following movement rules.

Standard Move - Maximum distance per round = MOV, Maximum distance per CA = MOV
- A character can combine a standard move of up to 1/2 MOV with an Attack

Sprint Move - Maximum Distance per round = 5x MOV, Maximum distance per CA = 3x MOV
- A character who is Sprinting can not do anything else in a CA in which they move
- If a character Sprints in a round, all subsequent movement must be a Sprint
- A sprinting character who stops moving can not start again until next round

Charge Move - Maximum Distance per round = 3x Mov, Maximum distance per CA = 2x Mov
- A character who is charging can make 1 attack in the round as part of the charge
- Minimum Distance per action = 1/2 Mov

This means you don't have to declare Sprints or Charges at the start of the round, but can't
keep starting and stopping sprinting through a round.

 

[Deleriad]

You can attack only if you charge, not if you are sprinting. Read carefully.

Charging (see page XX): The character moves a total of 3x his normal Movement and
attacks along the way; sprinting does not give you this option. In the exemple, although it says that Alaric is sprinting, he is moving 8x2=16m per action, not 24 as he could do with a sprint manoeuvre.

Note: There is a difference between moving and attacking and, moving and attacking along the way.

If you are 12m away I can declare a charge, attack you and carry on to end 4m beyond you (based on 16m charge action), or I can Sprint 12m then attack - I can not continue the move beyond the attack, even though I could move further if I hadn't attacked.

I think that's correct. I believe the charge description is mean to imply that the actual attack does not require an extra combat action. On the other hand, if you are sprinting you have to wait until your next action before you can attack.

As both charging and sprinting requires you to spend all your CAs bar one on moving then:
a character with 2 CAs can charge on their first CA. This meets the criteria for charging so they can do whatever they want on the second CA (e.g. attack, parry, move and attack etc)

Some other questions:

Can the 'other' action be spent on charging? Seems reasonable.
E.g. human with 2 CAs. move 8m. Opponent is 20m away. Can human charge 16m on the first action then continue the charge and move the rest of the distance to charge and attack.

When do you have to take the 'other' action? rules say that full round manoeuvres must be declared on the first action but don't seem to restrict when the non-move action has to be taken. Could someone with 3 CAs say "I'll charge the pict but my other action will be used first to draw my sword."

 

[duncan_disorderly]

Some other questions:

Can the 'other' action be spent on charging? Seems reasonable.
E.g. human with 2 CAs. move 8m. Opponent is 20m away. Can human charge 16m on the first action then continue the charge and move the rest of the distance to charge and attack.

Providing you don't exceed the maximum charge move for the round, I'd say this is fine

When do you have to take the 'other' action? rules say that full round manoeuvres must be declared on the first action but don't seem to restrict when the non-move action has to be taken. Could someone with 3 CAs say "I'll charge the pict but my other action will be used first to draw my sword."

Again this sounds reasonable to me - It would seem perverse for him to have to say "I'll draw my sword, then wait until the end of the round before I charge". I'm not keen on the "must be declared on the first round" and "Use all but 1 CA" part of the rules myself - hence my suggestions above.

 

[gran_orco]

Dual Wielding: A player may claim an additional CA for a second weapon, shield or “useful” item in his or her off hand, but the extra CA must involve that weapon, shield or item.

Except that this is neither the rule, nor logical. If I have (and can use) a weapon in each hand then I have an advantage over you even if, in a round I never actually attack with it. It's mere presence is a threat which you need to consider, and gives me a potential to use it for parrying which may/will limit the attacks you can sensibly make.

Yo do ONE attack, and I do ONE attack or evade. If you wield two weapons and I have one 2H sword, I will attack before you -surely, because it has a higher range-, and I will add your damage modifier with a bonus for charging. So, ehem... who has the advantage? No, two weapons is not better than one bigger weapon allways.

 

[Deleriad]

Dual Wielding: A player may claim an additional CA for a second weapon, shield or “useful” item in his or her off hand, but the extra CA must involve that weapon, shield or item.

Except that this is neither the rule, nor logical. If I have (and can use) a weapon in each hand then I have an advantage over you even if, in a round I never actually attack with it. It's mere presence is a threat which you need to consider, and gives me a potential to use it for parrying which may/will limit the attacks you can sensibly make.

Yo do ONE attack, and I do ONE attack or evade. If you wield two weapons and I have one 2H sword, I will attack before you -surely, because it has a higher range-, and I will add your damage modifier with a bonus for charging. So, ehem... who has the advantage? No, two weapons is not better than one bigger weapon allways.

Well most 2H weapons are either Long or Very Long while most 1H weapons are short or medium. There are some exceptions, notably the longsword. If using the optional reach rules then you need a weapon that is 2 steps longer (e.g. Very Long vs Medium) in order to hold an opponent at bay. This is one of the reasons why Longsword and shield is such a stunningly good weapon combination.

However it's definitely the case when charging that longer weapon acts first and, as far as I can see from the changes document, you still cannot parry a charge. So if a person is running at you with a 2h axe and you have a shield and shortsword you cannot parry with your shield. You can only counter-attack with your shortsword or evade. This does seem to be nonsensical but that's the rules as written and presumably, seeing as this was a well known issue with the charging rules in RQII, this is what Mongoose intend. Clearly, this is why Rome fell.

 

[Da Boss]

Dual Wielding: A player may claim an additional CA for a second weapon, shield or “useful” item in his or her off hand, but the extra CA must involve that weapon, shield or item.

Except that this is neither the rule, nor logical. If I have (and can use) a weapon in each hand then I have an advantage over you even if, in a round I never actually attack with it. It's mere presence is a threat which you need to consider, and gives me a potential to use it for parrying which may/will limit the attacks you can sensibly make.

Its not the rule - its what a number of people play as they have problems with the RAW

Its just as logical as saying that I get to perform an additional action - say casting a spell - just be having a penknife in my hand. There is nothing IIRC in the rules that defines what does or does not generate the extra CA and it encourages everyone wanting an extra CA (which is a HUGE advantage) just to have that penknife, toothpick or cocktail stick in their hand.

We play this in Clockwork and Chivalry and it has worked well AND eoncouraged players to come up with ways of using that off hand item be it an unloaded pistol, vase or whatever.

The other issues include but are not limited to those Greg mentioned earlier:

When do you get a bonus action? When you draw it? Do lose the bonus action if you drop it? Can I start a combat round with 2 CAs but get an extra one when I pick up an additional weapon? Does fist count as an additional weapon? Do I have to have a combat style with that additional item? Can it be a pen knife?

None of these are addressed in the current, or apparently the new rule set.

Charging is also apparently still a mess only covering a very specific instance with the issues raised above. It might be easiest just to drop the charging option......