League-afobia
- Thread starter JTL109
- Start date
l33tpenguin
Mongoose
I think the real issue is 'Why play race X when you can play league and fill in the weaknesses race X has' No scout? Take someone elses. No command? Take someone else. No carrier? No problem. Slow moving with short range? Take some beam snipers and missile boats. Weak against fighters? Take someone who has e-mines.
I have no issue with the League. What I have an issue with is fleets that are X with single ships here and there to patch holes. I'm a firm believer that league fleets should be a good representation of multiple league races. Not a pick and pull of hole patching.
I have no issue with the League. What I have an issue with is fleets that are X with single ships here and there to patch holes. I'm a firm believer that league fleets should be a good representation of multiple league races. Not a pick and pull of hole patching.
stepan.razin
Mongoose
I know this sounds cynical, but its a plan by the man to make a brotha buy more lead.
I would agree with l335penguin, if the major races were not capable of covering virtually all roles or the various league races could cover all roles.
It would also help if you had more than one choice per PL for the main line levels, skirmish through battle... but a number of races have that issue.
I guess for me the Drazi with a Brokados is not over powered. So I'm still waiting for the over the top that doesn't include the Gaim, or that can't be done by the race in question itself anyway.
I fear that even mixing a number of races won't help because folks will just call it cherry picking...
Brokados
Xeel x3
Vaarka
Firehawk
Tiraca x 3
Lots of races... and in some ways the best available ships for their level, or at least someone will complain so...
Ripple
It would also help if you had more than one choice per PL for the main line levels, skirmish through battle... but a number of races have that issue.
I guess for me the Drazi with a Brokados is not over powered. So I'm still waiting for the over the top that doesn't include the Gaim, or that can't be done by the race in question itself anyway.
I fear that even mixing a number of races won't help because folks will just call it cherry picking...
Brokados
Xeel x3
Vaarka
Firehawk
Tiraca x 3
Lots of races... and in some ways the best available ships for their level, or at least someone will complain so...
Ripple
KennyBoy said:
well I do seem to recall Tim giving the Minbari a good kicking when they tried to raid a convoy................. :wink:
Seriously though - the League is a fun idea as it allows you to play with various ships - I would tend to agree it does tend to make some fleets at best 2nd choice - especially if they have low or non existance Iniaitive/ PL gaps/ specailist ship gaps. However at present that seems to be conscious decision to leave gaps and make these races second choice...........
Of course if each League race had more of a variety of ships - the League as a whole would probablty be seen as less cheasy (even if its probably not really)
The Brakiri fleet have pretty much evolved to the stage of being self sufficent, the Vree are not far off and the Giam likewise.
The fleets that hugely benefit from other members are the Drazi, Abbai, and Pak'mara. The Drazi as I understand them are quite capable of forging a strong Empire on their own?
A few more varient ships would nicely finish off the varied fleets - in the manner that the "new Ships" chapter has started. This would also not require new ships to be made.............
I feel at present the varied League races need each other to compete with the Big Boys - which is prob right in the context of the show. They don't work perfectly together but they are stronger together than apart.
Methos5000
Mongoose
I don't think the league should be disbanded but I think there needs to be some harsher restrictions in place.
Perfect example, I have a Brakiri fleet but in all honesty why should I play a campaign as Brakiri only (I do, but thats not the point right now) when I could take Vree as allies and play a combined fleet. What do I lose out on, Brakiri Pack rat campaign ability? It sucks now. Vree 10 RR bonus for repairs? For what they are gaining not a big loss.
The fleet goes to initiative 0, oh wait....they already were at 0.
Zorths fielded on skirmish level ships and backed up by a Raid level Fleet Carrier +4 Dogfight.....wow.
An excellent Patrol level ship from the Vree, something the Brakiri don't even have.
3 very good bomber type fighters
Devastating DD Brakiri Beams for Hull 6 heavy interceptor targets
Devastating DD Vree weapons for low hull or low interceptor targets.
What exactly is the negative here?
Perfect example, I have a Brakiri fleet but in all honesty why should I play a campaign as Brakiri only (I do, but thats not the point right now) when I could take Vree as allies and play a combined fleet. What do I lose out on, Brakiri Pack rat campaign ability? It sucks now. Vree 10 RR bonus for repairs? For what they are gaining not a big loss.
The fleet goes to initiative 0, oh wait....they already were at 0.
Zorths fielded on skirmish level ships and backed up by a Raid level Fleet Carrier +4 Dogfight.....wow.
An excellent Patrol level ship from the Vree, something the Brakiri don't even have.
3 very good bomber type fighters
Devastating DD Brakiri Beams for Hull 6 heavy interceptor targets
Devastating DD Vree weapons for low hull or low interceptor targets.
What exactly is the negative here?
Foxmeister
Mongoose
silashand said:
I don't think I've really seen anyone advocating completely dropping the league other than in the P&P playtest files. What most people seem to want is some kind of restrictions to prevent the min/maxing that *can* occur, and making similar changes to ISA allies.
Regards,
Dave
responses...
narn have no fleet carrier, but have multiple e-mines at any pls... allowing elimination of enemy fighters. Their scout is only stealth 3+, better than the no stealth on the abbai and Drazi scouts.
brakiri/vree empire in campaign - is this stronger than the narn? centauri? ea? isa? minbari? It's not is the brakiri better with or without the vree... it's are the brakiri equal to the other races on their own... are the vree?
They are closer than they've ever been... but not there yet... and you've taken two of the three best races in the mix.
Ripple
narn have no fleet carrier, but have multiple e-mines at any pls... allowing elimination of enemy fighters. Their scout is only stealth 3+, better than the no stealth on the abbai and Drazi scouts.
brakiri/vree empire in campaign - is this stronger than the narn? centauri? ea? isa? minbari? It's not is the brakiri better with or without the vree... it's are the brakiri equal to the other races on their own... are the vree?
They are closer than they've ever been... but not there yet... and you've taken two of the three best races in the mix.
Ripple
-------l33tpenguin said:
So, your point is that the League fleets are poorly designed with many
missing ship types/abilities that are needed to make a well rounded fleet.
I agree, but even with the cherry picking through the League, the
League still winds up a second rate fleet choice incapable of defeating
a first rate power, unless the League player is having a VERY good
day with the dice.
I may not have been clear.
I think the league should remain. I was just saying that one of the proposed solutions may not fix the issue. The 'have to take many races' fixes a cosmetic issue, rather than a balance issue, if there is one. So I would hate to see this put in as a rule. It will complicate the game, but not address the issue that people really worry about.
My general feeling is that the League do not have a huge advantage over the major races. Even mix league with cherry picking doesn't generally have an advantage unless we talking Gaim involvement. The Vree scout is too good, but that was true before and no league race benefits from it as much as the Vree themselves do. (Drazi and Abbai are twl or beam/Brakiri have a good scout and rely on beams as well. Pak do benefit, as they have no scout but frankly they need one and at least one ship capable of carrying fighters.)
Ripple
I think the league should remain. I was just saying that one of the proposed solutions may not fix the issue. The 'have to take many races' fixes a cosmetic issue, rather than a balance issue, if there is one. So I would hate to see this put in as a rule. It will complicate the game, but not address the issue that people really worry about.
My general feeling is that the League do not have a huge advantage over the major races. Even mix league with cherry picking doesn't generally have an advantage unless we talking Gaim involvement. The Vree scout is too good, but that was true before and no league race benefits from it as much as the Vree themselves do. (Drazi and Abbai are twl or beam/Brakiri have a good scout and rely on beams as well. Pak do benefit, as they have no scout but frankly they need one and at least one ship capable of carrying fighters.)
Ripple
