Landlocked Pirate?

[Clovenhoof]

Hello folks

in my new group, one of the players has decided to play a Pirate even though we're going to play a land-based campaign. Originally she wanted to play a Thief, but so did another player and they figured it would not be ideal to have two Thieves in the party. (This required no intervention of my own, I would have let them.)

So here we have this Pirate who's unlikely to even see the ocean by a long shot. What do you think, should I alter the class special abilities to get kind of a land-based Pirate? Sort of like a Brigand?
If so, what changes could I make? Like, how could I transform the Seamanship ability to get something nice yet balanced?

Or is it altogether unnecessary, and is the largely land-based nature of Conan games already factored into the Class balance?

(I was suprised to see, by the way, that Barbarian and Pirate get Uncanny Dodge while the Thief does not.)

Thanks in advance for any input.
Happy holidays, everyone ^^

 

[slaughterj]

Suggest that she play a bandit, a class from S&P and Conan compendium, quite good I think and largely based on Pirate but with a splash of Borderer.

 

[Clovenhoof]

Sounds sweet, but where can I find it? Is it on the Mongoose website for download or something?

Note that you can't get the supplements easily here in Germany. The books you can find in some stores, but magazines are difficult to impossible.

 

[slaughterj]

Sounds sweet, but where can I find it? Is it on the Mongoose website for download or something?

Note that you can't get the supplements easily here in Germany. The books you can find in some stores, but magazines are difficult to impossible.

The Conan Compendium is a recent release that has many past magazine articles, check the products page.

 

[Krushnak]

really isnt much of a problem they'd just be river rat instead of an open main pirate.

 

[argo]

The Bandit class from S&P is not bad, but I don't like that they gave it Favored Terrian. We already have two other classes with that ability, why not just play a multiclass Thief/Borderer?

So for my own land-locked campaign I modified the class thusly:

Pirate
This campaign will feature little nautical action, therefore the Pirate class is being recast as the Bandit class.

• Replace the Seamanship ability with the following ability:
  Swashbuckling: A 1st level bandit gains a +1 circumstance bonus to all Balance, Jump and Tumble checks as well as to Attack Rolls so long as he is wielding a light or one handed weapon in one hand, nothing in his off hand and is wearing light armor or no armor. This is an extraordinary ability. These bonuses increase by +1 every five levels thereafter.

• Replace the Pirate Code ability with the following:
  Black marketer: A 2nd level bandit gains a +2 competence bonus to all checks related to buying, selling or trading in stolen or illegal goods.

• Replace the Navigation ability with the following:
  Carouser: At 10th level the bandit gains Carouser as a bonus feat. He need not meet the prerequisites for the feat. If he already has Carouser, he gains Persuasive instead.

Thus far I haven't had any major balance issues with the class, though only one player has taken it and he is multiclass so the playtest experience has been limited.

Hope that helps.

 

[Sutek]

Add "appraising" to the Black Marketeer ability, and call it Fence, and eliminate the "nothing in the other hand" for Swashbuckler and I'm sold. Light or one-handed and unarmored might be better; drop the light armor.

Nice alternatives, argo.

 

[Clovenhoof]

Thanks argo, that's exactly the type of modification I'm looking for.

Now let's have a look... (again, I don't have my book at hand b/c I'm visiting the family)

Swashbuckling: this ability will effectively get the Bandit's BAB to +19, almost as good as the full-fledged fighter types. Add to that the Ferocious Attack and everybody may crap their pants when a Swashbuckler appears.
So how about the weapon/armour limitations? On the one hand, you could imagine a light weapon in the off-hand. But balance-wise, 8 attacks per round at boni like +31/+26/+21/+16 times two sound like real bad news.
"No armour" may be too harsh a limitation, so I guess light armour should be allowed, or something special like "an Armour Penalty no greater than -1" or something. Could be argued either way. Let's do some more brainstorming on this.

Fence sounds like an excellent replacement for Pirate Code.

Navigation - now I'm missing my rule book, I'm not quite sure what the feat does. If it's about finding your way on the sea, simply replacing it with the same bonus for land orientation may also be a way to go. Otherwise, Carouser doesn't sound bad.

Damn, now I want to play a Swashbuckler. ^^

 

[Castel]

Simple and clean, i like it argo!

 

[slaughterj]

The Bandit class from S&P is not bad, but I don't like that they gave it Favored Terrian. We already have two other classes with that ability, why not just play a multiclass Thief/Borderer?

Because then you lose one of the most powerful abilities of the bandit class, namely uncanny dodge.

 

[Lord Jolly the Scribe]

Ooooh, I like argo. Kudos.

I need to get the Compendium. I got Christmas cash to burn now, so here come the books!

 

[slaughterj]

The Bandit class from S&P is not bad, but I don't like that they gave it Favored Terrian. We already have two other classes with that ability, why not just play a multiclass Thief/Borderer?

So for my own land-locked campaign I modified the class thusly:

Pirate
This campaign will feature little nautical action, therefore the Pirate class is being recast as the Bandit class.

• Replace the Seamanship ability with the following ability:
  Swashbuckling: A 1st level bandit gains a +1 circumstance bonus to all Balance, Jump and Tumble checks as well as to Attack Rolls so long as he is wielding a light or one handed weapon in one hand, nothing in his off hand and is wearing light armor or no armor. This is an extraordinary ability. These bonuses increase by +1 every five levels thereafter.

Seems like a decent setup, but I'm not sure about the Swashbuckling. Maybe it's the name, sounds a bit too Errol Flynn and not enough Conan?

Separate from the name, why a bonus to those checks? It seems to me a bandit is a person out in the wilderness who hides and ambushes wayward travelers and caravans. The skills listed above seem more applicable to a Pirate than a Bandit really. Maybe give bonuses to Hide and Move Silently.

Also, why the narrow restriction on the weapons held? Is it because of the skills you selected? I can see that, but otherwise if it structured to be something more akin to a typical bandit, then maybe the limitations should be dialed back to allowing an off-hand weapon or shield (but retain the light/no armor limitation).

 

[argo]

Seems like a decent setup, but I'm not sure about the Swashbuckling. Maybe it's the name, sounds a bit too Errol Flynn and not enough Conan?

Thank you, Errol Flynn was more or less the role model for this modification 8) (the class is, after all, a land pirate)

Separate from the name, why a bonus to those checks? It seems to me a bandit is a person out in the wilderness who hides and ambushes wayward travelers and caravans. The skills listed above seem more applicable to a Pirate than a Bandit really. Maybe give bonuses to Hide and Move Silently.

Well, they should still have decent ambush skills just from their base class skills. This is supposed to be the kind of "bandit" who leaps from a tree onto the top of a moving carriage, knocks the driver off and absconds with the gold and the lovely damsel inside.

I'll admit, this is something of a personal bias. I get almost as many thrills out of those sorts of antics as I do from muscled Brock Sampson-types heaping the corpses of their foes around their feet.

Also, why the narrow restriction on the weapons held? Is it because of the skills you selected? I can see that, but otherwise if it structured to be something more akin to a typical bandit, then maybe the limitations should be dialed back to allowing an off-hand weapon or shield (but retain the light/no armor limitation).

Well, part of the reason is flavor - you need a free hand to swing from a chandiler. :wink:

However, part of the reason is balance too. The intent of the attack bonus was to bring the Bandit's attack on par with a full-BAB class when he is engaged in his chosen style (compare with the Noble's Regional Feature ability). I fear that that, combined with TWF, combined with Sneak Attack damage would be too much. The player in my game who has levels in this class has often chosen to forgo the bonuses and TWF when he could get a flank, perfering the off-hand SA damage over the bonus to-hit. To me that says I made the right choice.

And a third reason is that the "one weapon only" fighting style is sadly underpowered compared even to the plain sword 'n borad style. The RAW give you very few advantages for having a free hand, mostly you are wasting resources. I thought this would be a good opportunity to throw some love in that direction, thus the no shields restriction. Besides, the class has a good Dodge progression anyway, a shield should not be their top priority.

Later.

 

[argo]

Add "appraising" to the Black Marketeer ability, and call it Fence,

Well, the ability gives a +2 bonus to all checks related to... so yes, that was intended to include appraise, and Knowledge, and anything else required for the character to find the "right people" :wink: and set up a transaction with them. Just so long as they are on the wrong side of the law.

Navigation - now I'm missing my rule book, I'm not quite sure what the feat does. If it's about finding your way on the sea, simply replacing it with the same bonus for land orientation may also be a way to go. Otherwise, Carouser doesn't sound bad.

Yeah, you can avoid getting lost on land with a DC 15 Survival check (or is it DC 20? don't have my books at work). So an ability that duplicates Navigation on land would be prety lame by 10th level.

But navigation is a weak ability overall, it mostly is an excuse to let the GM send the party where he wants to send them, so I wanted the substitute to be equally weak. Thus Carouser, which is a weak feat in game terms but is so much fun! :wink:

Glad that folks seem to like the class-mod.

 

[Clovenhoof]

Glad that folks seem to like the class-mod.

Yes it's really neat. =)

Navigation replacement: alright you convinced me, Carouser is fun. I checked on the Survival skill, it says "DC15 to avoid getting lost" and you always know where North is when you have at least 5 ranks in the skill.

I thought this would be a good opportunity to throw some love in that direction, thus the no shields restriction.

Agreed. ^^

 

[slaughterj]

And a third reason is that the "one weapon only" fighting style is sadly underpowered compared even to the plain sword 'n borad style. The RAW give you very few advantages for having a free hand, mostly you are wasting resources. I thought this would be a good opportunity to throw some love in that direction,

Understood. But in game mechanics, if you had Quick Draw, couldn't you take all your attacks with the sword, getting the attack bonus because your off-hand was empty, then Quick Draw an off-hand dagger and then get in all those attacks as well? It might be a perversion of your intent, but it seems viable under the rules.

 

[Clovenhoof]

Not if you house-rule that primary and off-hand attacks are dealt one by one, so first primary - first secondary - second primary - second secondary etc.

And if you don't want to make this ruling, well yeah, the Quick Draw thing might be possible, but at least the chap has to spend a feat for it. So far I've seen Quick Draw used mainly by those who use thrown weapons a lot.

 

[slaughterj]

Not if you house-rule that primary and off-hand attacks are dealt one by one, so first primary - first secondary - second primary - second secondary etc.

And if you don't want to make this ruling, well yeah, the Quick Draw thing might be possible, but at least the chap has to spend a feat for it. So far I've seen Quick Draw used mainly by those who use thrown weapons a lot.

Quick Draw is useful for that, but also when you have Reflexive Parry, you can quick draw even when flat-footed and therefore be able to parry still, which is especially use for those who rely on parry, e.g., Soldiers (and don't want to take the -4 penalty to parrying while unarmed).

Quick Draw is also useful if you are rushed by a foe and melee attacked while unarmed, because then you can draw your weapon(s) for free and get your full attacks back at them, instead of using a move action and therefore only getting one attack.

 

[Sutek]

Not if you house-rule that primary and off-hand attacks are dealt one by one, so first primary - first secondary - second primary - second secondary etc.

I think the rules specificly state that an off-hand attack is an additional attack, made at the highest BAB, after all other attacks that are allowed by level (eg. itterative attacks) and, because of dual wielding, all attacks are at -2.

Look that up to be sure, but I'm pretty certain that off-hand is one shot, because of feats like Improved 2Wpn.