Klikkitaks vs. GEG

[E-Mines Hurt]

Now, to start with a few definitions as I see them

Weapon System - A kind of weapon with a specific name (e.g. "Heavy Pulse Cannon")
Weapon - A specific weapon with a line on the ships info card (e.g. "Heavy Pulse Cannon 12 F 8 TL")


From the discussion about the Gaim the Klikkitaks don't get the scout bonus because they are not a weapon system.

Now the rules for GEG "...deducted from the ship by each separate weapon attacking is reduced....".

We know the Klikkitak is not a Weapon System. I do not know if the Klikkitak is a weapon. Is it?

They already ignore interceptors, do they ignore GEG as well?


greetings from my group of rules lawyers.... :lol:

 

[Da Boss]

Off hand I would say GEG and Shields work but happy to be corrected by more august contributors?

 

[AdrianH]

The fluff about the Klikkitak says "Once the Klikkita overloads its reactor, it becomes a deadly weapon..." It rolls an AD with weapon-like traits (DD, P, SAP). So do asteroids - do they ignore GEG as well?

The definition of Shields is interesting if we're going to this level of nitpicking. "While a ship's Shields are still intact deduct the number of hits dealt from the Shields. Each Hit from Double, Triple or Quad Damage weapons will reduce the shields by two, three or four points respectively." If asteroids and Klikkitaks aren't weapons, does that mean Shields can ignore their TD and DD traits and just lose one point per hit? I've never thought about that before and always assumed that, weapon or not, asteroids do knock three points off shields. Since my Shadows have never faced Gaim, the question of Klikkitaks versus shields has never arisen, but I'd assume that they knock two points off as well. A professional rules lawyer might disagree.

Back to the original question of Klikkitaks and GEG then, and based on the above, I'd agree with Da Boss - Klikkitaks (and asteroids) are affected by GEG.

 

[E-Mines Hurt]

Are ramming ships weapons?

 

[Greg Smith]

Definitions go something like this:

Weapon/weapon system: the line on a ship record. Weapons can benefit from scouting. Anti-fighter isn't a weapon.

Attack: a number of AD, rolled, with modifiers affecting the target number. Explosions, suicide fighters, jump point bombs, asteroids are all attacks but are not weapons.

Hits: succesful rolls in an attack. These are then rolled on the attack table.

Damage: the result of succesful attacks. Or from other sources.

Two extraordinary weapons are the Shadow jump point disruptor and multiple Brakiri gravitic shifters - both inflict damage without attacking or inflicting hits.


Defences:

Shields work on hits.
Dodge works on hits.
Interceptors work against hits.
Adaptive armour works against damage per weapon.
GEG reduces damage. *


*GEG reduces damage from weapons, according to the rules. This can probably be considered wrong. In the spirit of the description - GEG should reduce damage from external attacks such as weapons, asteroids, suicide attacks but not boarding.

Non of this is official, just the way I see it.

 

[H]

is it me, or are people begining to read too much into the rules again, surely a common sense approach would work, shields and geg are there to prevent a ship taking damage, arguing over the semantics just seems excessively picky, whether it's listed as a weapon or not, a ship traveling right at you at high speed is surely a weapon whether it is listed as so or not,

 

[E-Mines Hurt]

Greg,

According to that interceptors work against asteroids and ramming ships; since both cause hits.

Interceptors specifically can't be used against "weapons with the Beam, Mini-Beam or Energy Mine traits. In addition, they may not be used against exploding ships or opening Jump Points." Klikkitaks specifically avoid interceptors as per definition, but asteroids and exploding ships all cause hits. So do klikkitaks for that matter.

But then again, if you want to argue common sense, shouldn't the scout get to give the klikkitaks re-rolls on suicide missions? Surely the scout can beam meatball data to the klikkitak; rather than just not allow it because the klikkitak doesn't have a weapon system.

 

[Greg Smith]

I didn't mention all the specific exceptions, mostly excluding large objects or area effects from being dodged/intercepted.

However scouting is obviously more than simple up/down left/right targeting, or why would attacking ships only be able to use one weapon with the benefit of scout?

 

[AdrianH]

Interceptors
Asteroids and ramming ships are specifically prevented from being affected by interceptors by the rules for asteroids and ramming.

Scouting
It depends on exactly what scouting actually does. If it's the 23rd century equivalent of spotting fall of shot then it should really only work for one weapon system in the entire fleet. If it's relaying more precise targetting data then every weapon system in the fleet, including twin-linked and beams, should benefit. Game balance, not "real" universe considerations, probably dictates that only one weapon system not including beams or twin-linked can benefit.

Maybe there's some sort of hardware or software limitation which means only one weapon system can be plugged into each feed from a scout, although there can be multiple feeds from different scouts. Fire control for beams and twin-linked weapons is incompatible with scout feeds. All the younger races use the same operating system so they all have the same problems. Shadows use organic computers but only have one weapon per ship anyway, and Vorlons still haven't figured out how to build a scout in the first place.

And suicide fighters can't be redirected because there's nobody there to receive the redirection. A missed roll doesn't mean the fighter failed to fly into the side of a ship several hundred metres long; it means the fighter rammed the ship but didn't do anything to its armour. The fighter is still destroyed. (Especially Klikkitaks, which explode their reactors, so even if they do miss entirely they're still destroyed.)

 

[E-Mines Hurt]

Sticking to fluff, how is a suicide fighter (that can't benefit from a scout) different from a missile (that can benefit from a scout)?

Sticking to RAW, how is it that a suicide fighter receive a malus for not having a weapon (not being able to use a scout) and not get the bonus for not having a weapon (GEG stopping damage from weapons).

Interceptors have specifically been defined as not having any affect on hits from beams, mini-beams, energy mines, asteroids, ramming and klikkitaks.

I have found no similar ruling on GEG.

They are different; Interceptors work on hits excluding certain sources of those hits, GEG reduces damage per weapon. Which suggests that GEG does not work on damage that is not from a weapon.

 

[M1ndr1d3rs]

Sticking to fluff, how is a suicide fighter (that can't benefit from a scout) different from a missile (that can benefit from a scout)?

The scout relays its feed to the computer of the ships firing the missiles, which may be sophisticated (or big) enough to make good use of it. klikitaks are small, cheap and expendable with small, simple cheapo computers..

Sticking to RAW, how is it that a suicide fighter receive a malus for not having a weapon (not being able to use a scout) and not get the bonus for not having a weapon (GEG stopping damage from weapons).

It does not have a weapon, but gets stopped by GEG because it is itself a weapon? Otherwise, you've got me there.. :lol:

 

[E-Mines Hurt]

Still no official reply. I probably should have posted this to the Rulemasters thread.

 

[Da Boss]

I would think opinion is the best you will get - the ACTA game is no longer offically available / supported.

Nearest to official response is likely to be from Greg, Katadder or Triggy who were the Playtesters.

the prevailing opinion seems to be that GEG works against suicide fighters but if your group agrees and are all happy - play that it doesn't .

 

[E-Mines Hurt]

I would think opinion is the best you will get - the ACTA game is no longer offically available / supported.

Nearest to official response is likely to be from Greg, Katadder or Triggy who were the Playtesters.

the prevailing opinion seems to be that GEG works against suicide fighters but if your group agrees and are all happy - play that it doesn't .

It's my game I can play it any way I like, but official rulings keep rules arguments (while often entertaining) to manageable levels. GEG is not actually the issue at hand, but rather the scouting for klikkitaks. The GEG issue is pure blowback.

 

[locarno24]

My observation would be that the Stak scout is pretty much redundant if they can't - fighters don't need to break stealth, photon bombs don't need to break stealth and can't be redirected, and gatling lasers can't be redirected.

Take away the ability to redirect the klikkitak, and what the hell is the scout for?

And suicide fighters can't be redirected because there's nobody there to receive the redirection. A missed roll doesn't mean the fighter failed to fly into the side of a ship several hundred metres long; it means the fighter rammed the ship but didn't do anything to its armour. The fighter is still destroyed. (Especially Klikkitaks, which explode their reactors, so even if they do miss entirely they're still destroyed.)

Depends if you see the redirect being "be more accurate" or "have another go" - I personally don't see missiles looping round for another try, either.

 

[Burger]

Staks can be used in mixed league fleets
They can redirect fire for unconverted klikkila's
They can reduce stealth for sataaka, skrunnka's and sluuka's beams

Not exactly the most useful ship ever, but not completely useless. Certainly more use than an Eyehawk!!

 

[Greg Smith]

Stak is essential for unconverted Klikkitas. Given the limit on suicide attacks, swarms of Klikkitas are better used attacking ships. And at 1AD with no traits, a reroll is very handy.

 

[E-Mines Hurt]

The best use I can think for the Stak, that since the Gaim only need three or four FAP to win at raid level they can show up with 8 Stak scouts which then fly around the edges scouting the ships most likely to see those one or two klikkita's that weren't converted attack. Then when the battle is over take it's two or three XP it got for winning a battle and roll them on duties hoping to get a "5" (buy a ship for half price) or a "7" (get a free duty/refit on another ship).

Twin linking the Klikkita seems pointless. Though, if you keep up with the Stak duty leveraging you'll get a raider or a league ship with a weapon you can twin link.

Thought that only works in the campaign.

 

[Greg Smith]

Twin linking the Klikkita seems pointless.

Why?

Often you get significantly more fighters than you can ram with in a single turn. Swarming a dozen Klikkitas around a single WS, while 3 suicide attack isn't pointless.

Against some races (Drakh, Vorlons), unconverted fighters arguably work better.

 

[E-Mines Hurt]

Twin linking the Klikkita seems pointless.

Why?

Often you get significantly more fighters than you can ram with in a single turn. Swarming a dozen Klikkitas around a single WS, while 3 suicide attack isn't pointless.

Against some races (Drakh, Vorlons), unconverted fighters arguably work better.

Dozens? You get 3 on the stem of the WS. Have I been playing some rule wrong?