Keeping up with Armor

[Shayd3000]

So....

My players came up with this:

Fireproof suit
TL10 Cloth
TL12 Cloth
Boarding Vacc Suit

For total protection of 25 - doable?

The argument is, TL10 cloth is worn like clothing, thus the Fireproof suit and TL12 cloth can go under it, then the Vacc suit goes over the top of all that since a Vacc suit can be worn over clothing.

Hard to argue with it based on descriptions alone and little to no guidance in the mechanics. My concern is with situations like this, it gets to be a challenge to challenge characters that can get to such high protection levels. Most flora/fauna can't penetrate that, and my derelict ship with the yellow-musk zombies was not even a nuisance, though it was still fun.

I just thought I would bounce this off of folks and see what fell out.

George

 

[AndrewW]

So....

My players came up with this:

Fireproof suit
TL10 Cloth
TL12 Cloth
Boarding Vacc Suit

For total protection of 25 - doable?

The argument is, TL10 cloth is worn like clothing, thus the Fireproof suit and TL12 cloth can go under it, then the Vacc suit goes over the top of all that since a Vacc suit can be worn over clothing.

Hard to argue with it based on descriptions alone and little to no guidance in the mechanics. My concern is with situations like this, it gets to be a challenge to challenge characters that can get to such high protection levels. Most flora/fauna can't penetrate that, and my derelict ship with the yellow-musk zombies was not even a nuisance, though it was still fun.

Unless otherwise noted, only one type of armour can be worn
at a time. Resolve damage from the outside in – damage
that gets through the outer layer of armour is next applied to
the inner layer.

Even if that is bypassed, there's still apply to each individually so not really a 25.

 

[paltrysum]

I'm not a big fan of the TL10 cloth underarmor. Because it can be worn underneath, it becomes the thing that everyone has to have. So we house-ruled it gives you a DM-1 to physical actions if you combine it with other armors.

But yes, that looks about right. Their opponents are going to have to invest in AP ammo or heavy weapons if they want to damage them, thus dispelling any notions they might have about being invulnerable.

 

[Arkathan]

Boarding vacc suits are for hostile actions.
Cause them to generate unwanted attention on even mid-low law level planets/ports.
Set some adventures in hot, remote areas.
All those layers are hot, and the vacc suit batteries will drain faster under continued use of the AC. Apply fatigue rules for insisting on wearing hot clothing while doing mildly arduous tasks, like walking through rough terrain, and then apply penalties for carrying that gear when they are forced to take it off.
These sorts of things will either cause them to restrict their activities to low law level, temperate climates or cure them of their Min-Maxxing on armor.

 

[Condottiere]

Cloth implies gambeson, or as some may fondly recall, padded armour.

I always thought of it as a jumpsuit with advanced ballistic cloth, rather than ceramic plates, which I guess would be splint armour.

In theory, thin ballistic cloth should ensure that the bullet doesn't penetrate, but would still impart the impact to your otherwise unprotected body, so some padding to bulk up should be considered.

 

[Saladman]

Fireproof suit
TL10 Cloth
TL12 Cloth
Boarding Vacc Suit

In my game they would get the highest relevant value against any given attack. A fractional bonus for adding layers would also be reasonable, but would be the GM's purview not the players'.

If 2e has clarified they stack, that's a strike against 2e. If the problem is only that the rules don't explicitly come out and say they don't all stack additively, that's a player good faith problem not a rules problem.

 

[ShawnDriscoll]

Since I'm a role-player, my character would never have all the items to try on all at once.

 

[Condottiere]

Composite armour.

I'm surprised reflec didn't make the cut.

If you have it layered by an armourer, bespoke, then fit should be optimum; if not, movement should be somewhat more hindered.

 

[MonsterX]

What would happen if you went around always wearing four layers of winter coat? Physically, it is possible, but there would be consequences...

I would assume that armor types that players can buy are generally going to be designed to be reasonably comfortable, or at least not overly uncomfortable, if not stacked. They should allow players to move freely, not get too hot, and not be too heavy - if they are used by themselves and not stacked. If it were easy to stack them in a useful way, there would probably be composite armors for sale which stack their armor ratings, more or less.

If a player wants to do it anyways, depending the specific case, if I were referee I would either rule that the armors in question can't be stacked - because they don't fit - or, depending on the specific situation, apply significant movement penalties and negative modifies to physical actions (and perhaps mental actions as well once the heat stroke sets in). The character might get tired more quickly if they are engaged in physical exertion, and depending on how warm the environment is will start overheating and taking damage from that. There might be special situations where it is still useful to dress up like Tweedle Dum and Tweedle Dee, but you're not going to, for example, attend a dinner party in a Vacc Suit with 3 layers of armor under it.

 

[DickTurpin]

There are a few problems with excessive layering, most of them have already been mentioned. In my opinion, TL 12 cloth as a base layer is fine, any other armor on top should be acceptable. TL 10 cloth is obvious armor and would have more bulk to it, unless the boarding vacc suit was tailored to fit over it I do not think it would work well. The fireproof suit would need to be the outer layer to utilize its ability to "shed burning chemicals" and it would not fit over the vacc suit.

While the players' get points for creative gaming of the rules, I believe that limiting armor stacking to TL 12 cloth plus one additional layer would be a reasonable ruling, anything more should come at the cost of dex or end penalties.

It is also interesting to note that the 2022 update does not include TL 12 cloth, so Mongoose may be moving towards a restriction on armor layering.

 

[Geir]

I think stacking anything with a vacc suit - or other environment suit - would be problematic.
On the inside, there would be attachments for 'bodily functions' and sensors.
On the outside, there would radiators, sensors, fasteners, PLSS, etc.

There's room for more customization of the suits themselves... something I wish to explore further if Matthew gives me enough rope, but stacking with things meant to keep you alive in a hostile environment ought not to be done haphazardly.
Adding a thin cloth layer under something like polycarbonate armor is probably fine, though. Like 'padding', but I can see putting a DM-1 per layer as a reasonable adjustment as the Traveller begins to look more and more like the Michelin man.

 

[Condottiere]

I forget the name, but there's supposed to be a form of reactive armour, currently thought to be liquid gel, that hardens instantly on impact.

 

[adzling]

I forget the name, but there's supposed to be a form of reactive armour, currently thought to be liquid gel, that hardens instantly on impact.

oobleck!

 

[Garran]

The TL12 cloth armor is the only one that can be stacked because it explicitly says so.

Leaving the rules limitations aside, a fireproof suit over a boarding suit probably won't work conceptually for the reasons stated above (and putting it underneath means that something has already penetrated your environmental protection, so...), but I could see adding additional fireproofing to a standard suit design to have the same effect. It'd cost more than +50cr to do it though (maybe +2000cr?), and come at the cost of slightly reduced protection against everything else (-1 Armor, perhaps only 40/60 rad). Worth it if you know that you're going up against enemies who favor energy weapons, less so otherwise.

 

[Arkathan]

I forget the name, but there's supposed to be a form of reactive armour, currently thought to be liquid gel, that hardens instantly on impact.

Niven's Impact Suit?

 

[Bill Sheil]

By general principal what is sold over the counter or available to militaries should give the best available protection for the given limitations of the particular set. The value shouldn't be trivially improved just by chucking on extra layers without some significant practical disadvantages. Otherwise what would stop another vendor from simply selling a superior composite. Always assume the "standard" is somewhere on an optimal intersection of price, protection and practicality curves.

In principal I would only allow small (logarithmic) improvements in armour values for multiplying up armour and add a lot more encumbrance and agility penalties.

 

[Annatar Giftbringer]

I forget the name, but there's supposed to be a form of reactive armour, currently thought to be liquid gel, that hardens instantly on impact.

First time I heard about something like that was in the first Halo novel. Shortly afterwards, I learned that it was a real (or at least probable) thing. Can’t remember the name either though.

 

[Bill Sheil]

Out of interest the MgT2 personal armour values are broadly comparable with the values from the CT Striker ruleset so there is a good argument to use that system's logarithmic formula for armour which was +8 for every doubling of the thickness (at higher values). The combination of TL12 Cloth (4=1cm hard steel), TL10 Cloth (8=2cm) and boarding vacc suit (13=3.25cm) would actually give you an armour value of about 20 (6.25cm) under that system; although I would still nerf it.

 

[Condottiere]

In theory (and somewhat in practice, for some reason I think a Venezuelan tailor was featured, or was it Columbian?), you can sew in ballistic bullet proof cloth into a business suit.

I'm going to guess that wearing cloth armour as underwear is effective, in the sense that a bullet would be slowed down by the over armour and can't penetrate it; it still could transfer energy to your body, and knock you down, somewhat like chainmail gloves and overcoat would prevent a blade cutting, but not the transferred force.

 

[adzling]

I forget the name, but there's supposed to be a form of reactive armour, currently thought to be liquid gel, that hardens instantly on impact.

First time I heard about something like that was in the first Halo novel. Shortly afterwards, I learned that it was a real (or at least probable) thing. Can’t remember the name either though.

oobleck