Jumping into empty hexes: some thoughts.

[GamerDude]

I'm really not sure what point you're trying to make here (if you can clear it up great) and this isn't an attack but your trade presumptions are wrong (at least OTU canonically) and you seem to be comparing an apple run to an orange run (a J1 ship trading on a main and a J1 ship crossing a rift) or I'm really missing something here.

Fair question so let me see if I can clarify it.

Let me set this up. 2 different ship, identical in every way except for how much internal space is set aside for fuel and the ship's cargo capacity is reduced by that much. Both are J1 ships.

Thus ship A only sets aside 10% of it's internal space for fuel, enough for a single jump, while Ship B sets aside 30% of its internal space for fuel. The space in Ship B for the extra fuel is taken from the space that was used for cargo (as opposed to from crew quarters or some other area of the ship).

This means Ship B can carry less cargo than Ship A. Carrying a full load of any commodity (lets say Gold bars), Ship A has more.

Ship B tries to cross an open area of space to get to a star system (call it "BUGGLE"), with the system being three hexes away and the first two hexes are empty. It takes Ship B approximately 3 weeks (for three J1 jumps) with that single cargo. It gets to Buggle and sells what gold it has.

Ship A decides to take a route that goes from system to system, so all three hexes have star systems in it. So this trip also takes about 3 weeks (maybe a little longer with having to get into the system for fuel and then out to where it can jump). It probably took longer than Ship B to make the trip, but it expended pretty much the same amount of fuel but had a significantly larger shipment to sell when it got to Buggle.

So, it would be typically more profitable to jump from system to system than to carry enough fuel to jump a wide empty gap between the same systems.

Of course, my analogy sets the distance of the two trips to be basically equal, the longer the route is to go around the empty hexes, the more fuel Ship A would have to pay cutting into their profits and such.

 

[RandyT0001]

I don't know how Marc could have made it any clearer... and I'm very surprised that when after all the asking for what Marc says, he speaks up, those who don't agree still try to split hairs to claim their viewpoint is still the correct one.

First, I haven't seen Marc (or Loren) make any statement on this board, QLI's board, or Comstar's board (I don't visit SJ's board often so I can't attest to it) as to what is canon or not. All I see is your claim to what he's written you and, sorry, but knowing your reputation at disagreeing with just about everything EDG posts I wont be taking your post above as factual.

Second, this thread isn't really about what is canon or not. It's about deep space jumps (aka empty hex jumps). Using just the Classic Traveller Reprint books one can establish that in the beginning, according to the game Imperium (official, listed canon source), that interstellar jumps (outside a single hex/system) had to start and end close to a mass to function. A change occurred during the Long Night, specifically the Aslan Border Wars, as depicted in the game Dark Nebula (official, listed canon source), that the method(s) to jump from and into empty space (no mass required) was acheived. By the time of the Third Imperium jumping into and out of empty space (hexes) is so common place that it's a non-issue to ship's captains and navigators. It wasn't a problem with the technology (jump drives) but in the application of the technology.

 

[rust]

We make the rules up as we go and change them often just to frustrate those trying to learn it :twisted:

Obviously, but this time I caught you Brits doing it - this is from Webster's
Dictionary of 1913:

"\In`for*ma"tion\, n. [F., fr. L. informatio
representation, cinception. See {Inform}, v. t.]
1. The act of informing, or communicating knowledge or
intelligence.

The active informations of the intellect. --South."

I have no idea who this South guy was, but if "informations" was good
enough for him then, it is good enough for me now.

 

[far-trader]

...Fair question so let me see if I can clarify it.

Thanks. OK, I think I see where you're going now but the smallest situation would be a main of 4 systems all J1 apart with the first and last separated by a J2 gap (1 empty hex jump).

So (for simplicity) two free traders decide to transport 50tons from port A to port D. Trader 1 will go J1 through port B and port C. Trader 2 will make an empty hex jump between port A and port D.

Trader 1 has 80tons of cargo space. Trader 2 has to carry 20tons of extra fuel for the empty hex jump so it only has 60tons of cargo space.

Trader 1 has 30tons of cargo space to play with on the 2 intermediary worlds but will take 6 weeks to get to D.

Trader 2 only has 10tons of extra cargo space for trade but will only take 2 weeks to get to D with no trading stops between.

Trader 2 wins the race by a whole month saving a months worth of crew salary, mortgage, maintenance, and such. I think that will go a long ways to offsetting any (possible, not guaranteed) extra money made on the 20 additional tons of cargo that Trader 1 was able to use, especially if the intermediary worlds were less than optimal for trade.

If it is a case of a race where the winner makes money and the loser doesn't then Trader 2 making the empty hex jump wins hands down for the smallest star-to-star J1 vs empty hex J1 scenario.

 

[EDG]

All I see is your claim to what he's written you and, sorry, but knowing your reputation at disagreeing with just about everything EDG posts I wont be taking your post above as factual.

Marc doesn't even respond to licensees when they email him about vastly more important questions (usually involving things like actual money), so it's a bit odd that he'd reply to some random guy on the internet asking a question about what is canon...

But Randy's got a point, all this archaeology for digging up who said what and when is a bit beside the point. The fact is, people couldn't do DSJ's before the Aslan Border Wars, and could afterward, and there's ample canon in Classic Traveller supporting that. Regardless of anyone's personal interpretation of what they think canon is or whether X is a subset of Y, Imperium says that DSJs weren't possible back then and DN says it is. We can argue about whether one is right and the other wrong til we're blue in the face, but a much easier explanatoin is that it became possible in between.

 

[far-trader]

What if the reason DSJ was not possible was because some jump drives just couldn't do it. But something different about some race's jump drives made it possible, and that was so desirable that the others quickly copied it.

Just random idea throwing time here. Like maybe the Terran jump drive worked that way and the Vilani jump drive didn't.

I don't know. I'm not clear on all the invention and contact dates to figure out who might have broken the DSJ barrier and who then copied it from whom. It might fit too with the Aslan copying* the Terran jump drive.

* if that's the case and not just a story

 

[rust]

But Randy's got a point, all this archaeology for digging up who said what and when is a bit beside the point.

I also think that we have all the important facts, and that there are not
that many ways "to connect the dots" in a plausible way. The proposed
solution is the best I can imagine, and I doubt that more discussions
could lead to a better one.

 

[EDG]

I don't know. I'm not clear on all the invention and contact dates to figure out who might have broken the DSJ barrier and who then copied it from whom. It might fit too with the Aslan copying* the Terran jump drive.

* if that's the case and not just a story

I did rather like that idea (from the Solomani & Aslan DGP book). Unfortunately it's DGP, which means nobody else can use it in anything official...

 

[RandyT0001]

I don't know. I'm not clear on all the invention and contact dates to figure out who might have broken the DSJ barrier and who then copied it from whom. It might fit too with the Aslan copying* the Terran jump drive.

* if that's the case and not just a story

I did rather like that idea (from the Solomani & Aslan DGP book). Unfortunately it's DGP, which means nobody else can use it in anything official...

That stuff about the Aslan copying Terran jump drives is true, I just got off the phone with Mark about it. :wink: He also told me that the truth of the 3I's Scout Service getting caught smuggling Sola-Cola out of the Solomani Sphere was indeed the final straw that triggered the Solomani Rim War.
I have been vindicated!

 

[GamerDude]

LoL...

Well, guess this is a matter of what some people will believe. Oh Marc hasn't emailed someone a friend of a friend knows so he must not email to the guy who I consider to be meaningless, and let me throw in it doesn't matter what that meaningless guy says just because I disagree with him and I'm always right.


Well, I do email with Marc, and I have the reply I quoted, I did promise I wouldn't just post the entire thing on a forum, and he's even asked me to describe what the entire debate is using 35 words or less (I came close, I used 42 which is less that what the person he trusts used to explain it).

I know the truth of what I've said.

 

[AKAramis]

So anyone who sits there and tries to say something from Quicklink Interactive (T20), SJ Games (GURPS: Traveller), or even Mongoose right now are canon is saying Marc is wrong. period.

I don't know how Marc could have made it any clearer... and I'm very surprised that when after all the asking for what Marc says, he speaks up, those who don't agree still try to split hairs to claim their viewpoint is still the correct one.

Marc doesn't seem to actually read what's in his canon, either. The GDW materials are not self consistent.

 

[Border Reiver]

All I see is your claim to what he's written you and, sorry, but knowing your reputation at disagreeing with just about everything EDG posts I wont be taking your post above as factual.

Marc doesn't even respond to licensees when they email him about vastly more important questions (usually involving things like actual money), so it's a bit odd that he'd reply to some random guy on the internet asking a question about what is canon...

But Randy's got a point, all this archaeology for digging up who said what and when is a bit beside the point. The fact is, people couldn't do DSJ's before the Aslan Border Wars, and could afterward, and there's ample canon in Classic Traveller supporting that. Regardless of anyone's personal interpretation of what they think canon is or whether X is a subset of Y, Imperium says that DSJs weren't possible back then and DN says it is. We can argue about whether one is right and the other wrong til we're blue in the face, but a much easier explanatoin is that it became possible in between.

I've always found Marc to be very propmt at replying to my e-mails about all sorts of random subjects but as a further example as to what is canon here is a quote from FFE's Guide to Megatraveller which is at least a guide to where he is coming from. Quoted here under fair use.

Megatraveller books and sourcebooks published by Games Designers' Workshop are the "official" texts (the Canon) for the Megatraveller science-fiction role-playing game. The Canon includes all of the rules, adventures or sourcebooks published by Games Designers' Workshop either directly or through Challenge Magazine.

Because of the Digest Group Publications' participation in the design of Megatraveller, their designers had a deep and abiding understanding of the rules, and DGP focused much of their energy on the publication of Megatraveller materials under their license. The DGP material is classified as apocryphal: that is, authoritative, but not fully official (and thus not listed here). Apocryphal materials include the entire run of The Travellers' Digest and The Megatraveller Journal (four issues).

To me that says pretty much the same as what was originally quoted from Marc just applying in a more narrow field.

Now "authoritative" is a fairly strong word to use. Enough to say that the apocrypha is a pretty reliable source.

 

[captainjack23]

Ditto with regard to Marc returning emails -I mean, yes, he misses some, but heck I do too. Honestly, I cant imagine why he wouldn't answer you, EDG...and this isn;t sarcasm. Have you tried ? If your worried that you had some kind of blow-up four or five years ago, I'm doubt very much he would remember it , you or your email.....

And to all of us,:
Honestly, if we have reached the point where we are starting to imply that other posters are lying (and that is what is going on, regardless of the use of various weasel words) entirely based upon their comments to another poster, then this is a dead, useless and toxic issue. What's next ? Sock Puppetry ?
(again, see the recent fracas about a certain webowner & publisher's absence on the COTI boards if you doubt how this can degenerate)

Can we just stop, please ?

 

[EDG]

Ditto with regard to Marc returning emails -I mean, yes, he misses some, but heck I do too. Honestly, I cant imagine why he wouldn't answer you, EDG...and this isn;t sarcasm. Have you tried ? If your worried that you had some kind of blow-up four or five years ago, I'm doubt very much he would remember it , you or your email.....

All I said here was that actual licensees have a hell of a time getting a response from the guy, and yet he (apparently) seems to have the time to reply to random people on the internet. Call it an interesting reflection on Marc's priorities, I guess.

Can we just stop, please ?

Like I said, that's all beside the point anyway.

 

[captainjack23]

Ditto with regard to Marc returning emails -I mean, yes, he misses some, but heck I do too. Honestly, I cant imagine why he wouldn't answer you, EDG...and this isn;t sarcasm. Have you tried ? If your worried that you had some kind of blow-up four or five years ago, I'm doubt very much he would remember it , you or your email.....

All I said here was that actual licensees have a hell of a time getting a response from the guy, and yet he (apparently) seems to have the time to reply to random people on the internet. Call it an interesting reflection on Marc's priorities, I guess.

Random ? For all you know PG, rude as he can be, could be a highschool buddy of Marc's. I have to say, that if truthfulness is to be rated simply by one's social skills, there are more than a few of us whose credentials as experts would need to be called into question. And we'd be back in middleschool.

Additionally, what licensees are those you mention? Obviously, if you want to raise the point as an argument about someones honesty, you must be able to verify which of them have complained to you recently .....was it Mongoose ? Avenger ? Quicklink ? SJG ? Any names ? Any quotes ? If so, when ? currently or ten years ago ? Which one of these are you in such close touch with ? Name them. Or is the goal simply throwing around malicious gossip just to buttress your point that PG is a liar ?

No Constantine, you need to be concerned that have reached the point that you (and Randy) are willing to join in attacking the person, and not the idea, as you point out PG does. You don't like his info, perhaps, which is inconvenient (if vague), and you have reason to dislike him. But if you want to play the game by slandering your opponents over such a trivial issue, then you've pretty much jumped into the muck you claim to despise.

You've done a good job of turning this threadinto your personal discussion of canon and your newfound adherence to it; fine, perhaps that was relevent. Now you seem determined to just turn it into the mudslinging pit of evil enemies of Ganymede. Which is not.

One thing I like about COTI is that the original poster can close or delete a thread the started. And at this point, I absolutely would. And I hope to god that the moderators do so as soon as possible.

No doubt you'll ignore this post as inconvenient; perhaps you'll indulge in a thousand word essay on the subject of your qualifications entitling you to be treated differently; or perhaps a sarcasm and irony filled point by point cut and paste extravaganza illustrating your skill at inventing contradictions and sidetracking arguments; frankly, who cares. Your behavior is still grossly inappropriate for the level of discussion and community interaction here.

 

[EDG]

No Constantine, you need to be concerned that have reached the point that you (and Randy) are willing to join in attacking the person, and not the idea, as you point out PG does.

I haven't attacked PG at all, neither have I accused him of anything - despite his constant attempts at trolling and baiting me. Randy was the one accusing him of lying, not me. And PG is the one that keeps reminding us all about how much he despises me with all his petty digs and snipes after all, when it's not relevant to anything.

Like I keep saying, this is all beside the point. Instead of trying to move away from this though, you keep trying to bring it back into something personal. You are phenomenally hypocritical to lecture me about how you think my behaviour is "inappropriate for the level of discussion and community interaction here", when PG has been making the personal attacks on me all the damn time and you seem to be switching between actually discussing the topic and playing stupid mind games with me.

If you're that fed up with this topic (I sure as hell am, especially since you decided to spread it out over two other threads), ask Matt to delete or lock the thread and be done with it. But don't be accusing or blaming me for dragging it down into something personal when I'm not involved in any of that crap.

I am done with this topic. On all its threads.

 

[captainjack23]

EDG seems to have added the following after my last post (12:13)

I am done with this topic. On all its threads.
_________________


Last edited by EDG on Mon Jul 14, 2008 12:17 pm; edited 1 time in total

I guess that's an answer to my requests that he clarify his positions, and all the resolution we'll ever get. But, it'll do.

I've asked Chris to lock the thread, and hopefully he will, but in any case, it's pretty much dead in this incarnation. May I suggest that locked or not further discussion is moved to a new clean thread ?

Thanks,

 

[far-trader]

Totally aside and blatantly off topic but...

...One thing I like about COTI is that the original poster can close or delete a thread the started. And at this point, I absolutely would. And I hope to god that the moderators do so as soon as possible.

Thankfully that is no longer the case and it was a stupid option imo. The one time it was used saw a lot of good material posted by the community tossed in the trash because a (deleted) poster had a tantrum and ran around deleting all his posts out of spite.

I sincerely hope you don't get your wish and that Mongoose has the good sense to let posts stand on their own merits as long as nothing is against their rules.

If you really can't stand having your posts interacting with other posts I suggest you create a blog and cut loose there

 

[far-trader]

I've asked Chris to lock the thread, and hopefully he will, but in any case, it's pretty much dead in this incarnation. May I suggest that locked or not further discussion is moved to a new clean thread ?

Thanks,

Well, not locked yet, but I wonder how do you imagine locking this thread and moving the discussion you feel is dead is going to hold any benefit?