Jumping into empty hexes: some thoughts.

[EDG]

Well, sod it, I've asked on the SJG boards and then maybe we can get some actual confirmation or denial on the matter.

Personally based on anything that's officially been said so far, I don't think Aramis has any basis for making his claims.

But this is something that has to get straightened out once and for all for the purpose of this sort of discussion. So we'll see.

 

[Rikki Tikki Traveller]

Crossing empty hexes is not a HUGE issue if you assume Brown Dwarfs and stars without planetary systems. Even if only 1/2 of the empty hexes had something that could reasonably be detected by TL 9-11 technology, most of the "J2 gaps" would be crossable. The 4 gaps to the Newts might be a bit of a stretch, but probably not, I haven't looked at the maps that closely.

I figure the published maps are the PERMANENTLY INHABITED systems and don't show every system/star. After all, the calibration points are not shown on the published maps. Only 1 in 36 of the shown systems are not inhabited and it seems unreasonable to assume that every star has planets (even if most of them do, I doubt it is 97%) so there must be SOMETHING in at least some of those hexes.

 

[rust]

... (a) GT:Interstellar Wars specifically to be non-canon and (b) Imperium to be non-canon?

I do not see any reason why GT:IW should not be considered a part of
the OTU canon.
In fact, I also consider all of GT to be canon, although the canon of an
"OTU 1.5", which is "OTU 1.0" until the Dulinor affair, and then splits off
into its own timeline.
Frankly, while Marc Miller doubtless has the "final say" on the Traveller
universe, I am quite convinced that Loren Wiseman and his team know
the Traveller canon rather well, and can be trusted to make "canonical"
decisions.

As for Imperium, while it is by Marc Miller, I am not really sure whether
all of it is OTU canon.
I think that at least some of its rules reflect more its character as a board-
game, and less the imagined reality of the Traveller universe, which did
not even exist as we know it at the time.

 

[EDG]

Well, this is the stupid thing about canon. Existing material would be contradictory or nonsensical or lacking in some way. So a licensee comes up with a better explanation for something that fixes that in a way that contradicts what was said before as little as possible. But then the canon nuts start shrieking about how this new fix isn't canon and that everyone should use what was said originally.

Well... no. That's blinkered, short-sighted, and just plain stupid. A setting isn't going to evolve if everyone slavishly thinks to what was said 30 years ago. What the hell is the point of writing new material if all you're ever going to do is reinforce what was said originally? Has ANY setting ever done that? No. So why should Traveller? GT:IW fixes a few holes in as painless a way as possible, it's published by an official Traveller licensee, and it hasn't (as far as anyone knows) explicitly been delcared "non-canon", so just bloody well accept it and move on. As someone else said here, canon is all very well until a someone actually changes it, and then that's the new canon.

Fact is, if you could have done DSJs with impunity back in the IW era, then the whole thing goes out of the window. Why bother even going from star to star at all if you can just make your own jumps into deep space and take shortcuts around everything? You NEED restrictions to jump, otherwise you don't have chokepoints or any real strategy. And as I've pointed out repeatedly the GT:IW solution makes DSJ's available back then but in a limited, controlled way as they are needed.

 

[Klaus Kipling]

It's pretty simple really. If a later product tackles a discrepancy or inconsistency or just fills in more detail from an earlier version, then if it is 'better' or 'more plausible' lets bloody well use it. If it's crappy then just ignore it and continue to use the old stuff.

I'm not a fan of GURPS as a system but I like what I've seen of GT. Most of it is generally 'better' (in the way that it adds detail or covers anomolies) - stuff that isn't is easy to ignore.

The only important thing regarding canon is to retain continuity. Not to contradict what has gone before but to embellish it. Frankly, a lot of the old Traveller OTU stuff was distinctly lacking in much detail at all. It was very broad brush stuff. Anything that embellishes that in a groovy way is all good, in my book.

Not got GT:IW. Probably won't, given there's lots of groovy Mongoose stuff on the horizon, but the ideas it contains that have been exposited here seem pretty good, overall.

And I like this OTU scholarship side of things. If Tolkien bods can become professors in his work, why not a proper academic look at the OTU?

 

[simonh]

Fact is, if you could have done DSJs with impunity back in the IW era, then the whole thing goes out of the window. Why bother even going from star to star at all if you can just make your own jumps into deep space and take shortcuts around everything?

Ok, say I want to run a campaign set in the early history of the Ziru Sirka during the J1 era and I want the players to be able to travel across the Empire in their little J1 ship and hence travel between different mains known to have been reachable. How would you suggest handling that?.

You NEED restrictions to jump, otherwise you don't have chokepoints or any real strategy. And as I've pointed out repeatedly the GT:IW solution makes DSJ's available back then but in a limited, controlled way as they are needed.

Sorry but personally I don't need any such restrictions, or imagine any circumstances where I might need them in my games.

Simon Hibbs

 

[captainjack23]

Fact is, if you could have done DSJs with impunity back in the IW era, then the whole thing goes out of the window. Why bother even going from star to star at all if you can just make your own jumps into deep space and take shortcuts around everything?

Ok, say I want to run a campaign set in the early history of the Ziru Sirka during the J1 era and I want the players to be able to travel across the Empire in their little J1 ship and hence travel between different mains known to have been reachable. How would you suggest handling that?.

Simon, my advice would be to ignore the canon - or come up with your own way to circumvent it, or if you felt that it needed to fit into the future of the OTU use one that you felt made the setting work (oh say, players have a combo sleeper jumper ship -or an experimental drive -or an ancient artifact ), and run with it. Although its hard to see why that would matter, being so far in the past.

I've never tried to make the argument that one cannot run whatever game one wants, and quite probably improve the game from the standard OTU. Nor that canon had no contradiction or oddities, or was somewhat vaguely defined. It is an accumulated body of work, after all, with key consistency added in retrospect , as with comics.

All I was hoping to do was to generate some ideas about how the mass based jumps in IW could , in a purely academic way, be made consistent with the original line of the OTU, and explain, hopefully why the empty hex were empty; all without using some very standard gaming dodges and handwaves that infest the genre of gaming or comics. That's all. Now we have appeals to the pope, and rants, and diatribe, arguments about what is or is not admissable, and who is playing dirty pool, and who would decide. Sad, really.


The point of a seminar, which I sometimes forget, and which I unconsciously thought that this thread should be, is not to change opinions which is a debate), but to exchange ideas, and prepare them for scrutiny, and general presentation. Not to convince the seminar members, many of whom were chosen for opposing viewpoints.


Still, I think I've got a good idea of the whys and wherefores of how EHJ could work in the early OTU that seems consisent with the three main sources I was interested in -Imperium, GTIW and the classic traveller history. Didn't figure out if not where the missing starts are (later....later...) but I feel I got something other than heartburn out of it. If this was a real lit seminar, it would be time for me to write my manuscript for journal submission......not to keep arguing in class. But, instead, I feel I know have a good solid answer when my players, who are a bunch of scouts exploring the rift areas, ask about how jump works in the campaign, how empty hexes work, what they are, and ....yes....how does Imperium (which we play,also ) relate to our game, if at all.

So. Thanks to all. Keep having fun if you are having fun !

 

[EDG]

Ok, say I want to run a campaign set in the early history of the Ziru Sirka during the J1 era and I want the players to be able to travel across the Empire in their little J1 ship and hence travel between different mains known to have been reachable. How would you suggest handling that?.

They look for and find substellar objects as needed.

Sorry but personally I don't need any such restrictions, or imagine any circumstances where I might need them in my games.

OK, so the Vilani can bypass all star systems and attack Terra from a network of deep space stations that they're able to set up at will. And the Terrans (if they survive) can retaliate the same way. Now tell me that the IWs play out the same way as described.

(course, if you want to do that and have them turn out differently as a result in your own game then that's fine. But we're talking about canon here, and for the purpose of what happened in the official universe having everyone able to do DSJ's at will can change the course of events enormously).

 

[EDG]

All I was hoping to do was to generate some ideas about how the mass based jumps in IW could , in a purely academic way, be made consistent with the original line of the OTU-and explain, hopefully why the empty hex were empty without using some very standard gaming dodges and handwaves that infest the genre of gaming or comics. That's all. Now we have appeals to the pope, and rants, and diatribe, aruments about what is or is not admissable, and who is playing dirty pool, and who would decide. Sad, really.

If you want to avoid that, preface your discussions with "I don't care about canon, I'm just wanting to know what would happen if X happened instead of what is stated in the books".

That'd make it clear to everyone where you're coming from.

 

[rust]

Well, I got some very interesting insights into how others see the Travel-
ler universe, and I also got some fascinating new ideas for my setting
and campaign, from this "empty hex jump discussion" - thank you !

 

[captainjack23]

Well, I got some very interesting insights into how others see the Travel-
ler universe, and I also got some fascinating new ideas for my setting
and campaign, from this "empty hex jump discussion" - thank you !

You're welcome rust...and once they have sufficiently bamboozled your players, do please pass them on !

 

[captainjack23]

If you want to avoid that, preface your discussions with "I don't care about canon, I'm just wanting to know what would happen if X happened instead of what is stated in the books".

That'd make it clear to everyone where you're coming from.

And it would have been, in retrospect, a poorer discussion for it. So, I'm glad I didn't; so perhaps my judgement of where the thread is now was too harsh. Its the price we pay for open discussion. So, I'll back off from saying it's sad, and simply say that resolution of canon from authoriative sources wasn't my goal or my interest; and since that seems to be where the discussion has ended up, and I've pretty much solved the original issue to my satisfaction, I don't have much more to say. Except, thanks for your input, too.


And BTW, it would also have been a lie: I do care about canon - just not that way.....I like canon as...a friend, you know ? I mean, we can still hang out, and all.....look, its me, not canon......

 

[zozotroll]

I have read every post, and for me, this has been a good thread. I dont intend to play in the ISW period, even though I do have GTISW. But it may come up and I am much better prepared for it.

Plus lots of great ideas for my current game.

 

[RandyT0001]

So answer the question - has he or has he not declared (a) GT:Interstellar Wars specifically to be non-canon and (b) Imperium to be non-canon?

I know that in the introduction pages of some (didn't check all) of the Classic Traveller Reprint books the game Imperium is listed as part of Traveller canon. In fact the rules for the game Imperium are included in the Classic Games(1-6)+ reprint book (it's the first game actually), so I think that without any doubt that settles the issue of the canonicity of the game Imperium. The game Imperium is Traveller canon.

 

[Rikki Tikki Traveller]

Now that we seem to be winding down on the Canon stuff, I would like to state my personal opinion and how I run MY games.

I require mass at the destination for all Jumps. If a hex is empty, you cannot jump into it. BUT, I also map about 50% of the "empty" hexes from the Traveller maps with stars (I use a star figure on the map too). These may be stars or brown dwarfs that do not have planets.

To me, this makes the mains even more important, but still allows movement with a Jump 1 ship.

Here is how I do the rolls:

1d6:
1 - Empty (truly empty)
2 - Empty
3 - Star
4 - Star
5 - System
6 - System

I play in the Spinward Marches area (adding the stars to empty hexes on a 50% chance as I said) and in a region near the Pleiades Star Cluster (rimward of the Banners Sector in the OTU) that I try to keep attached to the OTU, but don't really worry too much about since there is no contact (yet).

I have also enjoyed reading most of these posts and hearing how others have handled this problem.

 

[JimG]

I'm not overly concerned about the OTU or canon - especially since I do not and will not own 99% of the canon material - but discussions like this definitely help me frame my own version of the TU.

<snip>
If this was a real lit seminar, it would be time for me to write my manuscript for journal submission...
<snip>

So any chance you'd be willing to write a summary post for the forums?

Make sure you include a hefty disclaimer if you wish to avoid taking flame damage...

 

[captainjack23]

I'm not overly concerned about the OTU or canon - especially since I do not and will not own 99% of the canon material - but discussions like this definitely help me frame my own version of the TU.

<snip>
If this was a real lit seminar, it would be time for me to write my manuscript for journal submission...
<snip>

So any chance you'd be willing to write a summary post for the forums?

Make sure you include a hefty disclaimer if you wish to avoid taking flame damage...

Working on both.....as requested !

 

[GamerDude]

Since you seem to so keen on what Marc declares is canon or not, has he ever declared that Imperium isn't canon?
....
You declared that that GT:IW is an alternate universe when Marc Miller has not said that it is

And has he said it IS cannon?

I'm used to people doing this "the authority didn't say it isn't, so it is. period" (or your version, either way). A version of the "is the glass half-full or half-empty" question. Lacking an official statement by Marc one way or the other, those who want "X" will say something isn't cannon, and those who want "Y" will say that same thing is cannon. Until Marc speaks who are you or anyone to say what is or isn't cannon (and I ain't gonna take the word of someone who publishes stuff that is, for a huge part, an ATU).

Well... no. That's blinkered, short-sighted, and just plain stupid. ...

Now THAT is one hell of an intellectual argument especially from someone who has called-out people who have made much more intelligent statements that folks didn't agree with. I'd love to see how well stated it would be if you didn't have a Ph.D.

Fact is, if you could have done DSJs with impunity back in the IW era, then the whole thing goes out of the window. Why bother even going from star to star at all if you can just make your own jumps into deep space and take shortcuts around everything? You NEED restrictions to jump, otherwise you don't have choke points or any real strategy. /quote]Because, as you blithely dismissed... how the heck do you make a profit if you have to turn over much larger portions of possible cargo space for fuel? If I can make much more profit doing a series of J1 hops from system to system carrying cargo from A to B, getting a new cargo from B to C, etc... and making money each week...

Say I want to cross a 3 hex gap with J1 from Hex A to Hex D:
- turn over another 20 percent of my internal volume to fuel, significantly cutting down my cargo space and taking three weeks to make the trip.
or
- II pick up a cargo in A, make a 1 hex jump from Hex A to B, sell the cargo and pick up another jumping to C, repeating and jumping to Hex D. It takes me approximately three weeks to get there but I also ran three separate cargos, all of which can be larger than the single above.

Even two competing ships in a race to be the first to get a similar cargo from A to D, the ship in the second example can carry more than the ship in the first example, making a greater profit than the ship in the first example.

Now which would make sense both from a financial as well as a safety aspect? To me the second example for both.

 

[zozotroll]

Ever read about the tea clippers? First one of the season made much more than any of the follow-ups. I read some where that it could be as much as several times the normal amount.

Much like the first copper river salmon here in the states.

So, sometimes it does make more sense to do the jump. Just depends on the exact situation you are in.

 

[GamerDude]

That's a very good point, but it's also the exception proving the rule: the cargo must be worth enough that even with the significantly reduced cargo capacity the saving of a couple of days per hex was worth it.