Jumping into empty hexes: some thoughts.

[EDG]

You're going to need to work harder to justify that as an easy throw away answer. I think you are mistaking conservativeness and stasis for stupidity.

The Vilani did lots of things that would be considered stupid by Terrans. Heck, the Terrans got away with sheer bloody murder when they should have easily been stomped flat. GT:IW even has a big text box (on pg 29) asking how the heck the Terrans got away with it - the Terrans simply shouldn't have survived if the Vilani reacted sensibly toward them. And that box even says explicitly that it was clear that the early Vilani were very different to the ones that the Terrans encountered.

But they didn't. The Vilani social structure, inability to work well outside of tradition, and political pressures on those who tried that (which brought down your "out of the box thinker" from the 3IW) all conspired to give the Terran the breakthroughs they needed. It's likely that had it been any other culture - one more similar to the Terrans - we'd have been annihilated.

Maybe some bright (and somewhat crazy) Vilani spark did say "hey, why don't we try a DSJ"? But he would have undoubtedly been rebuffed by his superiors for daring to think of such a ridiculous idea. For no reason other than "Because That's Just Not How It's Done". Who knows, maybe if the Vilani had tried the DSJs then someone rebellious bunch further back in the 1I would have got wind of it and tried it too. Maybe the Vilani wouldn't even consider it because it'd change the entire structure of the 1I.

The Vilani had simply never faced a foe that was as adaptable and ingenious as the Terrans and more to the point on an equal technological footing to them (with their much vaunted J2 drive that they kept to themselves). And to cap it all, the Terrans managed to surpass the Vilani in a mere 200 years of development, and at the end of the IW era were running rings around them with J3 amd blowing their ships up with meson technology unseen since the Ancient era (and maybe Sabmiqys). The sheer inertia of the Vilani meant that they just couldn't adapt to it, and couldn't get their heads around the fact that the way they'd always beaten these upstarts that they ran into just wouldn't work here.

 

[EDG]

And they hadn't had any need to even try to do a deep space jump for millennia either.

Actually that is unsupported by GTIW. They hadn't looked for a new one in centuries, and by the IW period they only rarely used them. Very different. [pg 171 -text box.]

OK, fair point. But "centuries" is still a long time. And most likely none would have been known in the Terran neck of the woods anyway because the Vilani had J2 when they found them.

The exact quote is this:

On the other hand, the Imperium has not searched for new jump points in centuries, and Imperial navigators rarely use even the ones that are known.

 

[captainjack23]

I thought I've been pretty consistent here... that said my ideas are evolving a bit as we go.

Your point seemed to be that deep space jumps should be easy to do anywhere. My point is that they're not - they're actually very difficult to do, but they are still possible.

NO NO NO NO NO. That is the point you keep arguing, but it is NOT my point.

My point is that in all of Traveller deep space jumps are allowed without any folderol of brown dwarfs or , except in IW and in the game; And that the reasons in IW give do not work with the rest of traveller.

I am not arguing they are easy ,hard or blue and yellow. Just that a solution to the issue must justify why either side never used a capacity that had to exist both before and after, without being so easy as to change the entire layout of the history or map, and not be impossible or use more supposition than what is is required to accept the mass model, flawed as it is.

If dwarfs are impossible or unique, then how to explain why they aren't mapped or mentioned..shortening a jump is of massive importance at any tech level and any jump capacity. Add in the fact that noone throws away a shi when the new jump drive comes out, and you have a damn good reason for finding them. If they are easy to locate, they should be everywhere. If they are hard to locate, they should still be mapped or at least recorded.

If towing asteroids works, then they really should be anywhere and everywhere. That solution doesn't even have the advantage of needing special technology to work. It just works if you throw enough money at it.

So, yes, I think that GTIW doesn't present a useable or consistent solution to the issue because basing it on stars create more problems than it solves. Neither does brown dwarfs or towed jumppoints mulberrys.

I can live with earth's breakout being a big mystery - or that they waited for J2, or that the Vegans provided clandestine assistance. maybe the whole brown dwarf is a Big Lie to decieive the Vilani about earth's tech level. Why ? Not sure, but it seems more plausable than that a massive bureauocratic empire misplaces every record of jump points, and then forgets that they ever existed. And even GTIW doesn't say that they had forgotten - in fact, they state that they did use them -even if rarely.

So that is my point, as I hoped I made it plain several times. I really don't care about the mechanical details of how the solutions works. it just has to work better than the mass/mass theory.

 

[EDG]

Which ISNT who we were discussing. So then the vilanii could build them as needed ?

Actually I was thinking of everyone here, not just the Vilani. I know the Geonee had to cross a few J2 gaps to make their little empire, so they'd have to be explained (and as I said, the asteroid method actually would have fit really well with the Geonee, though after figuring out the costs it may have proved too expensive for them to be able to do so many times).

The Vilani could have built those asteroid ships, sure. But given the time and effort required they probably would have been better to keep scrutinising staring and scouring the empty hexes to find a substellar object to jump to. As soon as its found, bam, they had their link and could press onward.

 

[captainjack23]

You're going to need to work harder to justify that as an easy throw away answer. I think you are mistaking conservativeness and stasis for stupidity.

The Vilani did lots of things that would be considered stupid by Terrans. Heck, the Terrans got away with sheer bloody murder when they should have easily been stomped flat. GT:IW even has a big text box (on pg 29) asking how the heck the Terrans got away with it - the Terrans simply shouldn't have survived if the Vilani reacted sensibly toward them. And that box even says explicitly that it was clear that the early Vilani were very different to the ones that the Terrans encountered.

But they didn't. The Vilani social structure, inability to work well outside of tradition, and political pressures on those who tried that (which brought down your "out of the box thinker" from the 3IW) all conspired to give the Terran the breakthroughs they needed. It's likely that had it been any other culture - one more similar to the Terrans - we'd have been annihilated.

Maybe some bright (and somewhat crazy) Vilani spark did say "hey, why don't we try a DSJ"? But he would have undoubtedly been rebuffed by his superiors for daring to think of such a ridiculous idea. For no reason other than "Because That's Just Not How It's Done". Who knows, maybe if the Vilani had tried the DSJs then someone rebellious bunch further back in the 1I would have got wind of it and tried it too. Maybe the Vilani wouldn't even consider it because it'd change the entire structure of the 1I.

The Vilani had simply never faced a foe that was as adaptable and ingenious as the Terrans and more to the point on an equal technological footing to them (with their much vaunted J2 drive that they kept to themselves). And to cap it all, the Terrans managed to surpass the Vilani in a mere 200 years of development, and at the end of the IW era were running rings around them with J3 amd blowing their ships up with meson technology unseen since the Ancient era (and maybe Sabmiqys). The sheer inertia of the Vilani meant that they just couldn't adapt to it, and couldn't get their heads around the fact that the way they'd always beaten these upstarts that they ran into just wouldn't work here.

You know, I'm going to have to bow to your superior knowlege of vilanii sociology and history. Okay. Fine The Vilanii didn't do it because they were blockeads. Really really stupid blockheads -and yes, if as your theory posits, they had all the technology needed to succeed, and then a few centuries before they really really really needed it, they forgot it or threw it all away, then they are stupid indeed. Dumb dumb dumb. . No doubt the emperor was disturbed by the concept in a dream or something.

So, then, the reasons the terrans didn't do it was - um....they were too honorable to take advantage of a bunch of tards ? Even after they nuked earth and killed millions ? Help me out here. Or were they idiots too? I mean, they not only knew of jump points, and presumably can figure out to move an asteroid...and didn't.

 

[EDG]

Linky link please ?

It's second hand (from Chris Thrash), but the best I can do at short notice:
http://forums.sjgames.com/showpost.php?p=400880&postcount=40

 

[captainjack23]

Which ISNT who we were discussing. So then the vilanii could build them as needed ?

Actually I was thinking of everyone here, not just the Vilani. I know the Geonee had to cross a few J2 gaps to make their little empire, so they'd have to be explained (and as I said, the asteroid method actually would have fit really well with the Geonee, though after figuring out the costs it may have proved too expensive for them to be able to do so many times).

The Vilani could have built those asteroid ships, sure. But given the time and effort required they probably would have been better to keep scrutinising staring and scouring the empty hexes to find a substellar object to jump to. As soon as its found, bam, they had their link and could press onward.

Okay. Fine. Yes, I agree. Its cheaper to find a stellar object than build a jump point and tow it. Cool. So, one can expect to find the jump point ? It doesn;t really seem all that hard the way you describe it.....

And, even if they are exactly as hard to find as needed, and the rocks exactly as expensive to build as neccessary, where are they ? Where are the points on the maps -in the IW period, let alone the 3I ? Do you honestly think that one found for free that shortened a jump by 50% would be ignored ?

 

[captainjack23]

I don't actually think the issue really is whether or not these jumps are possible or not though - I think the real stumbling block is that if these substellar bodies and/or towed planetoids exist and are used as jump points, then why aren't they marked on any maps? And for that we can claim that they're all top secret or something, but to be honest even this part of the issue is a bit of an annoyance to me. I would rather that the ones that are needed during peacetime to access entire new mains from the Vilani one would at least be marked as "Calibration Point" type things on a map - the ones in the middle of a warzone though can be kept quiet at least.

Is that clearer?

Yes, actually, and helpful. It seems we basically agree. I could live with a specific enough dark mass, but not given the above issue.

But the Terran failure to find another such point is also hard to swallow -I can live with the vilanni on the rim blowing it -grudgingly, but I can. But not the terrans.

So, given the above, may I suggest we stop thrashing ? You clearly have a solution that works for you, it seems; partly because you prefer the whole GTIW war to other parts of traveller and are okay with the blockheads who forgot theory -both of which cool...just not my goal or in my comfort zone for reasonable suspension of disbelief. I'm going to keep on looking.

 

[EDG]

You know, I'm going to have to bow to your superior knowlege of vilanii sociology and history. Okay. Fine The Vilanii didn't do it because they were blockeads. Really really stupid blockheads -and yes, if as your theory posits, they had all the technology needed to succeed, and then a few centuries before they really really really needed it, they forgot it or threw it all away, then they are stupid indeed. Dumb dumb dumb. . No doubt the emperor was disturbed by the concept in a dream or something.

That's hardly fair. They deliberately engineered themselves to think a certain way, because if they didn't their empire probably wouldn't have lasted anywhere near as long as it did. And frankly it worked fine for them (not so much for their subject races) until they met the Terrans.

And I do recall lots of discussions on the SJG boards when IW was being being developed about how dumb or short-sighted the Vilani seemed to be or how lucky the Terrans were. But that's how it went. If it went any other way, the Terrans would have lost. I don't think it's that hard to believe that a several thousand year old culture with that sort of level of social engineering that deliberately weeded out the boat-rockers and crazy thinkers could make decisions that to an outsider would seem "really dumb".

So, then, the reasons the terrans didn't do it was - um....they were too honorable to take advantage of a bunch of tards ? Even after they nuked earth and killed millions ? Help me out here. Or were they idiots too? I mean, they not only knew of jump points, and presumably can figure out to move an asteroid...and didn't.

Well, they did do it. They jumped to a jump point near Terra and jumped from there to Barnard. And after that they discovered J2 and didn't need that anymore and were too busy fighting and rebuilding to think of much else. I guess they could have looked for J2 jump points but there weren't that many reasons for them to do so given that strategically important J3 gaps were rarer.

And strategically speaking, on the relatively short timescale of the IWs, I don't think it would have made much sense to bother with towing an asteroid. That's money and resources that could go to building more warships or rebuilding and restocking things after all.

And to be honest I think the Terrans DID realise that they had a distinct advantage over the Vilani in how they operated and thought. And they did ultimately take advantage of that and that's what won them the wars.

 

[EDG]

But the Terran failure to find another such point is also hard to swallow -I can live with the vilanni on the rim blowing it -grudgingly, but I can. But not the terrans.

OK, but where would you decide to put another point? After the First IW the Terrans have J2 and don't need any J1 jump points to get anywhere.

For one thing, at Terra they've got the homeworld's resources to draw on. Maybe that big IR observatory built by ESA on the dark side of Luna that's been there for a few decades and cost a lot to build or whatever just happened to spot that BD. But when you're a small colony on a distant rockball with little in the way of resources to blow on such luxuries, its going to be harder to justify building it and looking for BDs in the hope that one's nearby. After all, deep space infrared detectors aren't exactly high on the list of "essential imports for a colony". Maybe if they did have the same resources they could have build more observatories around other systems, but they just couldn't?

So, given the above, may I suggest we stop thrashing ? You clearly have a solution that works for you, it seems; partly because you prefer the whole GTIW war to other parts of traveller and are okay with the blockheads who forgot theory -both of which cool...just not my goal or in my comfort zone for reasonable suspension of disbelief. I'm going to keep on looking.

*shrug* Well, that's what the Vilani have always been to me. IIRC I'd got that impression from the old DGP V&V book too. If that's how they've always been described then that's how I'll take them.

If that's not good for you, well, I can't help you. And frankly I think I do actually prefer the IW era (and the GT work on it specifically) - there's much less annoying baggage there, and more interesting things for players to do.

 

[captainjack23]

That's hardly fair. They deliberately engineered themselves to think a certain way, because if they didn't their empire probably wouldn't have lasted anywhere near as long as it did. And frankly it worked fine for them (not so much for their subject races) until they met the Terrans.

Now that's the best version of that argument that I have heard yet.

And I do recall lots of discussions on the SJG boards when IW was being being developed about how dumb or short-sighted the Vilani seemed to be or how lucky the Terrans were. But that's how it went. If it went any other way, the Terrans would have lost. I don't think it's that hard to believe that a several thousand year old culture with that sort of level of social engineering that deliberately weeded out the boat-rockers and crazy thinkers could make decisions that to an outsider would seem "really dumb".

In the interests of full disclosure, I should point out that the old"and then the enemy did something stupid" is a major pet peeve of mine in lit or gaming; as is the equation of simple or conservative or static equals stupid. It's on the level of, oh say what some random planetologist might feel about a size 1 planet with a type 7 atmosphere, for instance, hypothetically. I really really really don't believe it, like it, or think it is necessary.
Generally, if one has to invoke more than bad luck in a story, one is being lazy. Or the author subscribes to the pernicious notion that low tech means stupid, or losing means the winner was smarter, OR, worst of all, that doing things differently than (fill in culture) means stupid. Worse than that, then in my book, is attributing it as an explanation to cover up an error or flaw or such like. People act stupidly, but whole cultures ? Consistently ? Over vast amounts of time ?

Nah. One may as well say it was a dream, and move on.



However, since we seem to have reached an impasse here, as this issue is a key part of your theory, we can either scream "is" "isn't" repeatedly, or move on.
I'm prepared to accept and live with the fact that your idea is wrong and broken and stupid. :;

 

[captainjack23]

But the Terran failure to find another such point is also hard to swallow -I can live with the vilanni on the rim blowing it -grudgingly, but I can. But not the terrans.

OK, but where would you decide to put another point? After the First IW the Terrans have J2 and don't need any J1 jump points to get anywhere.

Um, here's where we are having problems, I realize. A jump point doesn't have a rating. An engine does. A jump point can be used as easily by a jump 6 and a jump 1. The key location IS finding a jump point next to Terra which could use all the same homeworld resources to locate it. It would extend the range of a J2 fleet or a mob of commerce raiders so as to be able to reach internal vilanii territory, (as would several other locations) - and if one isn't limited to adjacent hexes for detection, then one really can get just about anywhere. That 3 parsec gap is all that kept terra safe, and the vilanii smug. In fact, the dark jump point pretty much ca only be in one hex(1927), as otherwise it would allow access to agidda by bypassing Barnard (and vice versa) with J2. Which would be very very bad for Terra in the first and second wars, and not so good for the Vilanii, either. .

So, yes, they would have every reason to use it. Which is why its hard to swallow the old "they found one example of a common object, and never did again". Even though we know the Vilanii have to have found several simply for economic and curiosity reasons. But, as you like to say, if it floats your boat, go for it: it's ultimately unverifiable or unfalsifiable.

 

[rust]

I do not know whether someone mentioned it already (too much to
read ...), but there is an excellent example of an empire's stupidity
in our own history: China and its navy.

Shortly before Europe's Age of Exploration began, China had the by
far biggest and best-equipped navy in the world, and its admirals vi-
sited the coasts up to and including East Africa.

And then the imperial court decided that this seafaring thing was too
costly and that it only led to questionable contacts with barbarians -
and the Emperor first had the entire seagoing navy scrapped, and
then forbade sea voyages.

Compared to this (and some similar events in our history - think of
Japan), a Vilani decision to give up on deep space jumps entirely
still seems stupid, but also possible.

Perhaps the Vilani Emperor's brother had died in a deep space jump,
who knows ?

 

[EDG]

My point is that in all of Traveller deep space jumps are allowed without any folderol of brown dwarfs or , except in IW and in the game; And that the reasons in IW give do not work with the rest of traveller.

But... they do work with the rest of Traveller.

In and before the IW era, you can't do DSJs. After the Aslan Border Wars, you can.

How does that "not work with the rest of Traveller"? It doesn't affect the rest of Traveller at all.

If they are easy to locate, they should be everywhere. If they are hard to locate, they should still be mapped or at least recorded.

Well they're not easy to locate. But I would agree that in most cases they should be mapped where they are found. Hell, for all we know (as I mentioned before) most of them ARE mapped when they're found - they're on the map already as M8-M9 V stars (I actually retconned the Gladstone system (Solomani Rim 0240, J1 from Barsoom) as a Brown Dwarf system in the designers notes for my BD JTAS article). But some you'd want to keep secret.

But that won't explain why the links from the Vilani Main aren't on the map. And I agree that's problematic, but maybe they got just forgotten about after several thousand years of J4+ technology. It's not unheard of for things to disappear off maps over time.

If towing asteroids works, then they really should be anywhere and everywhere. That solution doesn't even have the advantage of needing special technology to work. It just works if you throw enough money at it.

*shrug* it seems like a hell of a lot of work for me. It's vastly more economical of time and money and effort to just look for substellar objects. Just because you have money to throw away on building asteroid jump points doesn't mean you will.

So that is my point, as I hoped I made it plain several times. I really don't care about the mechanical details of how the solutions works. it just has to work better than the mass/mass theory.

Well, good luck finding one. But the "mass/mass theory" is what's in the book, and what's more it's actually "Real Canon" for that era since it's in Imperium. It works for me though.

 

[captainjack23]

My point is that in all of Traveller deep space jumps are allowed without any folderol of brown dwarfs or , except in IW and in the game; And that the reasons in IW give do not work with the rest of traveller.

But... they do work with the rest of Traveller.

In and before the IW era, you can't do DSJs. After the Aslan Border Wars, you can.

How does that "not work with the rest of Traveller"? It doesn't affect the rest of Traveller at all.

It is new with GTIW, and it requires a fair bit of retconning and extra handwaving be added to the rest of the story. I understand that you like it, so that's fine with you. I'd like one that doesn't require rewrites and specific assumptions about mass psychology; and that still leaves a hole (where are the points now) and a contradiction (why weren't they used in the IW, by the terrans at least) that need more handwaves to fix (They were forgotten. It only ever worked once for them). You dislike handwaves in science, I dislike them in sociology and literature.

So that is my point, as I hoped I made it plain several times. I really don't care about the mechanical details of how the solutions works. it just has to work better than the mass/mass theory.

Well, good luck finding one. But the "mass/mass theory" is what's in the book, and what's more it's actually "Real Canon" for that era since it's in Imperium. It works for me though.

So, good. sounds like you've reached resolution; and are arguing like a good canonista .

Seriously, heres the deal...I wanted to try an discuss the whole empty hex issue, from a viewpoint of making it work without extra complications. GTIW is the source of that issue. You've decided that there are no complications, and are using GT as canon. Fine. I appreciate your input, but I really don't want this to turn into either a massive and unresolvable canon argument, or a discussion of whether there is a point to the thread, which I know isn't where you're coming from.

I may be guilty of being too casual, or unclear, but my intent for the point of the thread was how to resolve the empty jump issue with GTIW and Imperium. Take it that this is a "self evident " or "fiat" proposition -one which is accepted for the sake of the argument. If you don't see a problem, fine; if I wasn't very clear, apologies, and thanks for helping me clear up my muddled thinking.

 

[simonh]

I don't think casting about for technical obstacles to using calibration Points is going to be fruitful. No such technical obstacles have been mentioned in canon that I'm aware of.

Certainly in the 3rd Imperium era of the default setting there are significant logistical problems with effectively using CPs for long jumps since stocking them with fuel becomes a big issue. If the CP is J3 from either end of the route say, then you need 60% of the ship's volume to be fuel in order to make the journey without refueling. A refuelling ship restocking the CP needs to have 60% of it's volume to be fuel to get there and back, plus the tonnage of fuel that is the actual payload so it's very inefficient and requires many jumps to restock the CP. I reckon a tanker can max out at roughly 80% jump fuel by tonnage, so a 1000dton tanker would drop off 200dtons of fuel each trip, but it takes 300dtons to allow a 100dton ship to cross the route. Three fuelling trips allows two ships (of equivalent tonnage) to cross.

Using these economics, it's not viable to restock a J4+J4 route this way because the tanker would use all it's fuel to get to the CP and back. You'd need to have an independent source of fuel at the CP.

Now clearly in the J1 and J2 era these logistical problems are significantly smaller. For a J2+J2 CP route 40% of a refuelling ship's tonnage is used getting there and back. That's not too bad efficiency wise as it means a 1000dton tanker with 800 dtons of fuel can drop of 400 dtons each trip - enough to allow two 1000dton J2 ships to cross the route.

For J1+J1 routes refuelling simply isn't a logistical problem at all.

Personally I am not prepared to cripple the use of CPs in current games for the sake of patching a hole in some ancient board games I've never played. I understand that some people who have played these games might have a different view of their relevance to the setting, but still IMHO what's best for our games now IMHO trumps patching up holes in some historical baggage of the game. Clearly empty hex jumps must have been possible for the First Imperium to even have existed, so for me it's a done deal. The wargames are just flawed.

BTW how hard would it be to add rules for CPs to the wargames? Would they significantly alter the balance of power in the game?

Simon Hibbs

 

[far-trader]

...there are significant logistical problems with effectively using CPs for long jumps since stocking them with fuel becomes a big issue.

Two words, "drop tanks"*, will help there a lot. It doesn't look like at a glance that you were using them

* another fun canon mystery

 

[jerich01]

This has been a very cool discussion and one of the few I've seen here that's actually be worth following...

That being said there are some fallacious points being bandied about and it seems a few folks are trying to catch up...

So: Is GT:IW "canonical", "official", something for the bird's cage, or secret messages from above?

Folks, the answer is no - be reasonable here; when GT came out is was stated by MM that this was an alternate universe; therefore, until we hear different, it's all alternate. If we want clarification, ask the man who can decide. I did, we'll see if he answers.

Now that being said, EDG stated early on in one of these threads that this particular piece of fiction had a somewhat elegant response to a question about which the official material is lacking. So in essence the ideas/answers of one game fit another and work pretty well. Great, leave it there and move on to testing that elegant solution; is it official, hell no, but it is fun and is part of what's kept this thread interesting. Stop arguing about what's Canon; not one of us can truly answer that question and the one who can isn't talking here.

So, why no BD's or other stellar masses on the map... Well to answer in context of what's been said, who made the map? WE assume we have God's map and it should show everything but what if we don't... What if we have the Interstellar AAA map (AAA=America's Automobile Club)? Now my AAA map shows lines and routes from point A to point B and it shows some of the bigger stops along the way... It doesn't show every place I can stop to obtain fuel, resources, etc... Never did... Instead you knew based on the technology and range of your automobile and where you were going, where you would expect to find these things and there you went. Even now as you drive down the road you know you'll come across something and hopefully you're smart enough to refuel before it becomes an issue. This is why there are routes and "bottle-necks" on the map, akin to our highways where we have the most efficient way to get places. Now, to continue the analogy further, you can get off the roads and go overland, especially here in Texas, and you might find a place to refuel, eat, etc... but you have no idea... You could, had you the resources, decide to build a fuel stop due west of your house at the range of your vehicle, but do you have the resources and how often would you do this? My guess is once or twice (like EDG has posited) otherwise it gets too expensive and really becomes pointless and inefficient ("stick to the road you idiot" is heard often around here).

So now we suddenly give our vehicles twice the range... Suddenly some of these fuels stops are useless and they go away... Sometimes the entire infrastructure around these goes away... There's nothing there. How many of you in the US can tell me where every water stop, picnic area, and campsite from the 20's and 30's are? Not many could find even one, even though the concrete is still there, the wells, etc... We didn't need them and so we forgot them and it's been 80 years... Progress makes people forget. So I think there probably were a few routes (featuring something) along the way that we have forgotten by 3I. And they aren't on the maps becuase we don't need them anymore; again, dig out your map of any road system here and point out all the unused rest areas that used to be, find the old gas station halfway between Las Vegas and Barstow that sits empty... That's what I think happened here, just more time.

Really folks, I think EDG is on to something that answers the question, the only problem is (and I like EDG) that he gets a bit full of himself and gets pinned into arguing stupid points like Canon; again who cares, there is no answer and damn few hints in the canonical material and the solution that the group has, for the most part, hashed out fits very well - as the OP of one of these threads pointed out, this is all useless, not one of us is better for this discussion, it's just fun. Fun to find the stupid holes the author left in, fun to find the vague holes the author left in, and it's doubly fun to fill them.

So let's keep this interesting, skip the "canon" crap, skip the "your an idiot" crap (cause the only idiot could be the guy who left the hole in the first place), and let's get on with the next phase. Where would these old jump points be? Did they all go away like the old gas station or is one a converted biker (pirate) hangout? Did some crazed Kurtz (Apocalypse Now or Heart of Darkness) make one his personal military sanctuary?

Sheesh, refighting the "canon" battle again is just universally stupid...

 

[simonh]

Two words, "drop tanks"*, will help there a lot. It doesn't look like at a glance that you were using them

I must admit I don't like the idea of drop tanks, never have. I've never allowed them in a game of mine, and never played in one where they have been allowed.

Simon Hibbs

 

[rust]

Where would these old jump points be? Did they all
go away like the old gas station or is one a converted biker (pirate) hang-
out? Did some crazed Kurtz (Apocalypse Now or Heart of Darkness)
make one his personal military sanctuary?

Of course, this is where those S.C. raiders and M.U. terrorists of my setting
have their secret base - a former and now abandoned way station in
deep space, left over from the first colonization attempt 1,750 years ago !

Thank you for the idea, and excuse me, I have to make some notes ...