Jump Precisions

Vormaerin

Emperor Mongoose
In another discussion, I was reminded that MgT2e generally makes jump drives very much less accurate that they were previously. Though there is a Mg JTAS article that retains their relative precision and The World Builder's Handbook as a third way of calculating accuracy that is somewhere in between.

In Classic Traveller, this wasn't a topic that was discussed in any of the rulebooks that I am aware of. It's not an issue raised in Bk2 or Bk5. You just arrived. In JTAS 24, Marc Miller asserted that one of the benefits of Jump drive was its controllability, claiming it was accurate to within 1 part per 10 billion. Claiming that that jumps of a parsec or so were normally accurate to within 3000 meters, though bad astrogation could increase that error tenfold.

The other CT data point I'm aware of is that both Tarsus and Beltstrike discuss jumping to the 100D limit of a large object with the intention of being as close as possible to a object orbiting the body whose limit applies. In the case of Beltstrike, this was arriving close to a moon around a gas giant and in the case of Tarsus, it was being as close as possible to the world of Tarsus, which was inside the sun's 100D limit. There it claims that commercial ships rarely make the kind of mistake that results in missing this optimum point, but it sometimes happens in private vessels. The rules there state that hitting this target (closest point at the 100D limit to the orbiting satellite) happens unless you roll 10+ on 2D6 with a -1 DM per skill level of the ship's navigator. At that point you could get pretty far off from the satellite, though not from the gas giant/sun.

I don't remember anything different being said in MegaTraveller. New Era was basically the same except with some additional complications related to accurately vectoring yourself at the destination since that edition used reaction drives instead of M-Drives, so the vector affected fuel usage.

I never bothered to learn the rules to T4. In T5, you can't fail to arrive at the 100D limit of a known celestial object (without a misjump), but if you try to emerge in open space for whatever reason, then there are scatter rules.

Which brings us to Mongoose 2e.

JTAS #3 has two articles "Jump Space Operations" and "Jump Point to Port". The first article basically uses Marc's 3000m accuracy, but makes the variance on longer jumps a little bit more than in the original article. The Jump Point to Port article does not talk about accuracy, but it does mention that Class A & B starports normally have designated emergence zones. That presumes some reasonable accuracy to jump arrivals. The exact quote being:

"Orbital space around a world with a Class A or B starport tends to be busy and subject to a strict set of traffic control guidelines. Often a busy port will post guidelines at neighbouring starports, indicating favoured emergence points for ships from that system. If pre-prepared jump solutions are available, these use standard emergence zones. A policy of giving priority to vessels emerging from jump at these points encourages traffic to behave in a manner that is easier for the starport authority to manage."

Then there is the World Builder's Handbook. It is talking about jumping to celestial objects in "empty" hexes. The variance there is 0 to 4 D6 diameters unless you make your astrogation roll exactly (0 effect), then it can be really inaccurate (up to 600D!).

Lastly, the rules in the Traveller's Companion. Again, these are mostly pretty accurate. 0-4 D6 diameters makes up a substantial majority of results. But bad results are more likely than in the World Builder's Handbook, albeit less extreme (120D is the worst variance). It also introduces a new concept "bad jumps" that doesn't previously exist.

I don't know that this makes much difference overall. But I find it interesting that jump seems to be steadily getting less accurate and more dangerous in newer editions. In CT, unless you were trying to do something funky like predict your arrival near to a satellite or jumping with some sort of malfeasance involved (in a gravity well, bad fuel, shorthanded), you jumped safely and accurately. Now you are unlikely to actually be accurate and simple bad dice can result in some pretty wildly inaccurate normal jumps.
 
For me, I can't say I've focused much on jump accuracy. If pressed, I guess I like it being somewhat accurate but not precise. Within 3 kilometers is too precise for me. I want more slop, though not some of the wild swings mentioned above. I could live with 4d6 diameters.

This isn't really part of what was mentioned, but it was discussed in some other threads. They were discussing if a ship jumped with speed and lost it at arrival, jumped and retained it, or had to stop before jump. I found this in the companion and it seems to go for option 3.

The rules do not allow spacecraft to retain momentum from one space combat round to the next. Thrust is instead abstracted as a maximum speed per combat round. In a game where ships may accelerate continuously for many hours when travelling to or from the 100-diameter jump limit or another planet in the same system – before turning around and decelerating continuously, starting at the halfway point until they reach their destination – many battles could involve ships moving at very high speeds.
 
Generally, the rules have always been that you retain any vector that you entered jump with. The policy of most commercial craft is to jump with no vector when possible, because it avoids the tiny chance of arriving on a crash course with something that you don't have time to react to because you are going super fast.

On the other hand, in New Era, jumping with a vector was normal because they used reaction drives so wasting fuel decelerating was bad. So part of astrogation was making sure you arrived pointed where you wanted to go so you could decelerate from your starting speed as you approached without wasting fuel turning. Or having spent fuel to stop and have to restart again.

Military vessels jumping often retain a vector because they do not want to be motionless if they arrive in combat, have a lot more responsiveness to emergency maneuvers than a commercial vessel (both engine, computing, and crew skill), and usually aren't jumping into a commercial zone directly.
 
Generally, the rules have always been that you retain any vector that you entered jump with. The policy of most commercial craft is to jump with no vector when possible, because it avoids the tiny chance of arriving on a crash course with something that you don't have time to react to because you are going super fast.

On the other hand, in New Era, jumping with a vector was normal because they used reaction drives so wasting fuel decelerating was bad. So part of astrogation was making sure you arrived pointed where you wanted to go so you could decelerate from your starting speed as you approached without wasting fuel turning. Or having spent fuel to stop and have to restart again.

Military vessels jumping often retain a vector because they do not want to be motionless if they arrive in combat, have a lot more responsiveness to emergency maneuvers than a commercial vessel (both engine, computing, and crew skill), and usually aren't jumping into a commercial zone directly.
I’m just quoting the book. They imply strongly that decelerating is done. Honestly, that needs to be settled at some point for good, but we can only read the tea leaves at this point.
 
You are talking about two different things.

1) Ships entering jump space leave jump space with the same vector that they entered with.

2) Ships usually CHOOSE not to do that because it has an unnecessary element of risk.

A free trader will normally slow to a stop before jumping. This is a safety issue. But if you are being chased by a raider, you can just keep your foot on the gas right up to the point you jump. When you come out of jump, you'll be moving at the same velocity you had when you entered.

Many ships don't have enough power to run the M-Drive and the J-Drive at the same time, but that only affects continued acceleration/deceleration. Just turning off the M-Drive will not change your existing velocity.
 
I don’t put much weight on rules in JTAS. If it doesn’t call that rule out in a major book, that’s just fannon in my mind. The Mongoose rules leave it unsettled except for the quote I made that only hints. Maybe that will be spelled out for sure at some point.
 
The core rulebook (and the various starter sets in my opinion are pretty generic and for baseline play as the majority of people just want the whoosh you get there and may gloss over getting to the adventure (which is generally on planet/station whatever). If you are interested then you can buy additional supplements to scratch your particular itch.

I like consistency (I am Neurodivergent so "like" isn't a strong enough word) but I am also loath to spend 20-40 quid on a book that I have only tangential interest in. I also have many other versions of Traveller to draw on so getting consistency usually mean treating each version as stand alone. Currently I am trialling MGT2 (having ported a year or two ago from Cepheus as I didn't like the way the Deluxe edition went).

Does the Starship Operators manual not cover the jump deviation? I would expect the most recent publication to be the canon view (but I am aware that sometimes supplement authors go "off-piste".

For the books in my collection the companion was the most recently updated so that is my default. I also like the additional variation as it feels more like a journey rather than a teleport (and it makes the Astrogation skill more important). If you are on a tight timeline that extra 20D could make all the difference. We can expect the 100D and closer to be as civilised as it gets in a system (if only because you are guaranteed that nothing is suddenly going to pop into space beside you), beyond that point "there be dragons".

I note that in GURPS they use the same "draw a line from where you are to where you want to go, if it crosses a 100D limit you drop out there" logic of other editions. Barring a mis-exit (mis-jump being some failure of the drive itself), arrival exactly at the destinations 100D limit is guaranteed as that is the only way to precipitate out. If you got your nav plot wrong you mis-exit and precipitate out at some other 100D limit that you failed to take into account or you missed your target and carry on until you "hit" something. The only variance is time and as distance has no bearing on the modal time of jump this is entirely due to some property of jump space.

This sounds much cleaner but it should mean that arriving at a specified point on that 100D limit would require you to wait until the target planet is in the exact rotational position that you required (since you cannot jump through to the other side of the planet). For planets with slow rotation this could be months. The implication is that you choose your departure time or your arrival point but you probably can't choose both.

In the interrupted straight line theory it should also mean that you might need to move your start position so that the straight line doesn't intercept anything en-route. Since even the 100D limits in any system are a small proportion of the volume of the system (and the chance of hitting a celestial body crossing the entire observable universe in a straight line is thousands to one against) you would need to cross the entire universe dozens of times before you hit any 100D limit (and that would almost certainly be a star). This means that you can jump from anywhere to anywhere with effectively zero chance of an unfortunate intercept which is good news for plotting. However the expectation would also be in this case that unless you hit your target planet you wouldn't hit anything else either and would continue the jump until you passed out of known space (and the game). Better luck hitting something the next universe. You could limit it by the max jump of the drive and say that you automatically precipitate out at some random point in a random hex at that distance (which would be more playable) but GURPS allows up to 6d6 parsecs regardless of the jump capability of the drive which doesn't make a lot of sense.

It would make somewhat more sense that you always precipitated out at the 100D limit of the star at the centre of the system* as at least that is "stationary" compared to the other bodies in the system and within the timeframe of a jump they would be stable with respect to the other systems you might jump from. They would also be easier to target as they are bigger and far more visible since they usually radiate and of course gravity might "bend" jump space to make it the preferred precipitation point. Each other system would lie in a definite (mostly fixed) direction and if you decided that you can only aim at the centre of the star every ship originating from a particular system would arrive in broadly the same location. You might like ships to have some momentum at arrival so they can clear the arrival point quickly.

You would need some method to determine the position of any particular body in the system you wanted to get to and trog through normal space to get there, but that could be abstracted most of the time or a simple formula could be set up if you wanted to regularise it. There would be lots of transiting though normal space with this model, but that way lies adventure :)

*Multi-star systems would use the gravitational/rotational centre of the combination instead and calculating the 100D would get crunchy - an exercise for the reader.
 
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Remember that the companion rules are variations and options, they are not setting specific in any way.
This volume contains additional and alternative rules for Traveller, allowing any campaign to be tailored to different play styles and settings. The Traveller Companion should be considered a toolkit, from which the Referee can pick and choose whichever rules seem most appropriate to the style of game being played.

All of the rules contained in this volume are, of course, optional and it is up to the Referee to decide which elements are suitable for the campaign being created.

Consider the Traveller Companion as a ‘toolkit’ for Traveller, and build your campaigns to your own requirements, supported by the rules in this book.
MWM's Jumpspace article in JTAS24 and MgTJTAS2 are setting specific to the Imperium setting.
 
The Traveller Companion is a bunch of rules options and variants, such as the Luck and Charm Stats, various alternate ways to have Jump drives work and other mechanics work, and assorted articles on topics that didn't get covered in the main books. If you want to say those articles are more official than JTAS articles or whatever, sure go ahead. The whole point of the book is to give the GM options and resources for their individual campaign.

The Starship Operator's Manual is actually a pretty heavily researched book that aligns with some of the broader trends and historical positions in Traveller better than some of the other Mongoose texts (such as the Companion). That can be good or bad depending on whether you like those things (the 1000D limit, the straight line precipitation theory of Jump, and a few other things are pretty controversial in the community).

It does not mention jump deviation, presumably because Mongoose is the only version of Traveller in which Jump deviation appears as a significant element for routine jumps, as I mentioned above. If you like those rules from the Companion, you should certainly implement them for your campaign. But it is unlikely that they would be referenced anywhere else.

Traveller is a game system designed to allow playing a wide range of styles and has always presented a range of possibilities. Charted Space should, in theory, provide a more consistent perspective than the broader, more flexible overall ruleset. But there has always been an element of confusion in the editorial division between rules and setting. Not just in Mongoose's rules.

If you like the 1000D limit, straight line precipitation jump mechanics, and such, you should absolutely use them. I don't find that they add anything to the gameplay and that they have significant unexplored impacts on what the setting would look like. As you noted in your comments about having to move your start position to jump. That ancient Traveller conceit that commercial ships visit a new system every other week that underpins the shipping cost system breaks down because you would actually have travel seasons. Part of the year you could jump straight from Earth's 100D limit to Prometheus (Alpha Centauri). Part of the time you'd have to add substantial real space travel either before or after the jump that throw off that sequence even more than the 6-8 day variance in jump time does. And, frankly, it asks more real world astrophysics than the game supports. Traveller already simplifies space by making it functionally 2D, eliminating about 80% of the stars, and having "empty" hexes. It is, imho, fundamentally not game-able. It's just a needlessly complicated explanation for "you rolled bad". YMMV

And, frankly, I like CT's jump where if you don't cut corners by jumping early, using bad fuel, skipping maintenance, or running short on crew, jump is quite safe and reliable. Something that happens millions of times a day across the Imperium without incident. But, again, different folks have different interests in how their version of the setting works. So it is good that there is varying views on that, in my opinion.
 
I got so excited about the crunch in the companion I forgot that the core rulebook takes a very different approach. It is not a simplification as I had first assumed but a different philosophy.

Hmm torn now and my neurodiverse brain is starting to boil.

Must..shut...the...can...of..worms...

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Nah it wouldn't let me.

The issue I had with the MGT2 Core Rulebook version of jump is that the Astrogation skill is pretty much useless. If you fail the skill check you can just have another go. How do you work out you failed to plot correctly? It is an easy 4+ check and so you don't even need to skill to have a pretty good chance of getting the correct answer, especially if you spend a few hours at or have some expert software (Yet a robot apparently cannot handle it for... reasons). If you are skilled It only takes 1D x 10 minutes and your margin of success liable to be very might but also completely irrelevant. The worst outcome from failure is you might waste an hour, but since your transit is going to take a couple of hours, you can have a few goes before it might adversely impact your departure time.

Jump failure is all about the Engineer.

At least with the rules in the Companion there is some point in having the Astrogation skill.
 
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If you want to qualify your experience, or that of your game's experience of jumping, you'll have to create house rules.

The official conditions for it to happen and complete are very simple, if somewhat questionable.

I look at it like I look at a Vargr.
 
One more thing.

The core rule book is not necessarily applicable to the Third Imperium setting. While the latest 2e crb is becoming more like MegaTraveller in only describing the Third Imperium, there is still at least a small attempt to say the rules are somewhat generic.

In the Third Imperium, jump travel is as common as airtravel today - I'll find the CT quote for that in a bit - and is a lot safer, since Boeing doesn't design jump ships.

As Vormaerin says above, stick to your maintenance schedule, don't use unrefined fuel, and don't jump wihin 100D and there is no roll of the dice.
 
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Jumps have never been pinpoint accurate.
Even going back to LBB 2 where it described 'Jump tapes' that could substitute for a trained navigator [astrogator in MgT2e], but were far less accurate. The section went on to say that no Jump is perfect and a variance was to be expected based on navigator skill.
And then we have Agent of the Imperium, where Jumps have variances of up to 20% and that it takes highly skilled astrogators and J-drive engineers to peel some of those percentages off.
 
These aren't the droids you are looking for..?

If it is all safe and easy why even have skills that apply to it. Just say the ships computer does all that and have done.
 
The official CT statement is 1 part per 10 billion. I'm not going to do the math on that, but Marc Miller's article claims that means "within about 3000 meters over a 1 parsec distance." Is that pinpoint or not? As I mentioned above, Tarsus & Beltstrike boxed sets from the CT era state that commercial ships almost never fail to not only arrive at the 100D limit, but do so at the closest point to a satellite within it.

Those are, to the best of my knowledge, 100% of the actual mechanics on jump drive accuracy across the CT rules set. And I couldn't find anything different in T:NE. I don't have the megatraveller rulebook anymore to confirm if that was different.

In classic traveller, an astrogator is actually optional. The calculation is done entirely by the ship's navigation computer. Your astrogator, if you have one, is basically just making sure the program didn't bug out and give nonsense results. Only ships above 200dtons required a navigator in the crew. And, even more so than now, they likely served as co-pilot more than astrogator specifically.

I'm fine with shifting more actual responsibility to the Astrogator and making their skills more relevant. But the rules as written are not good. Jumps are actually quite likely to be problematic, so there is no way that someone with Astrogation 1 would get a commercial astrogator's license. The way that chart works about 10% of jumps by someone with +2 Astrogation roll would be a "bad jump". Commercial traffic such as we assume happens in Charted Space would not be the case if the crew and passengers were getting nauseated on one 1 in 10 jumps, not to mention the risk of being off into the 100D limit (something not possible in CT).
 
Now, if you want jump travel to be more unreliable, then you need to reflect that in what a competent navigator actually looks like in the game system. As written, an Int 8, Astrogation 1 character is a qualified Astrogator. This does not match up with the actual task checks demanded by the game.

If you are going to use 4+Jump Distance for the task check and then apply that effect to your variance and chance of a bad jump, commercial navigators would absolutely be required to have Astrogation 3. And probably an Int 9+. Or you couldn't be a ship's master astrogrator. Just an understudy. And quite likely any military astrogator would also have to have a waferjack and be running skill wafer enhancements so they are rolling at +5 or +6 since task checks of Astrogation 8+ are routine for naval astrogators.

And this is just from a normal, safe, by the books jump.

That's nonsense. The game mechanics are, imho, not meant to be read that an 8+ is an average difficulty task for someone doing that job. It is meant to be read as the average difficulty of a dramatic action using that skill is 8+. "Warp factor 1, Mr. Sulu. Engage!" is not a dramatic action and doesn't merit a roll. But, afaik, that's not actually what the rules say anywhere.

I had a whole thread on 'what do astrogators actually do and how do you make it fun gameplay" that was pretty inconclusive. There's probably a reason why astrogator is not a popular fantasy job for players and why most shows basically ignore them. On Star Trek, the navigator was always the junior dude waiting to get killed or say something stupid so Kirk could exposite. Until they got Chekov,and he tended to be the weapons officer before too long :D

If you want my opinion on what the "astrogator" role on a small commercial craft is for, it's to be the copilot and sensor operator and manage the various data entry and verification tasks necessary for preparing a jump plot, the heavy work for which is done by navigation software. And in gameplay, that character does the cool sensor ops stuff. There's a lot of cool things your navigator could do like plot gravity slingshots and stuff, but we aren't playing a video game where that kind of detail and the math to go with it is actually practical for most tables.
 
Jumps have never been pinpoint accurate.
Even going back to LBB 2 where it described 'Jump tapes' that could substitute for a trained navigator [astrogator in MgT2e], but were far less accurate. The section went on to say that no Jump is perfect and a variance was to be expected based on navigator skill.
And then we have Agent of the Imperium, where Jumps have variances of up to 20% and that it takes highly skilled astrogators and J-drive engineers to peel some of those percentages off.
Please highlight where in LBB:2 it describes jump tapes? I can find a reference to jump cassettes, not the same thing. :)

In LBB:2 you needed either the generate program or a jump cassette, plus the jump program itself. A trained navigator could not replace the generate program or the pre-loaded course cassette. They couldn't. In CT navigation was only useful for writing the programs, on planet navigation, and... that's it. There are no rules for navigators plotting jumps, it's all done by the thinking machines...

There was no jump time variance based on navigation skill.

Time variance was introduced in HG79, and once again introduced another contradiction (how does a fleet jump, switch on its black globes, coast through space upon arrival and then at a pre-determined time drop the globe and open fire...)

"Suppose, for instance, that a fleet were to jump into a system with its black globes on and its velocity set upon a predetermined course. It could
drift unseen past any defending fleet and drop its screens at a pre-planned moment, to bombard a planet or to engage enemy fleets by surprise. Further tactical possibilities are left to the imaginations of the referee and players."

This is simply not possible with later fanon interpretations of the jump time variance and made canon in later versions of the game.

Agent of the Imperium is based off all the years of arguments and fanon that Marc took on board, some of it for good, some of it not so good. How much of Agent of the Imperium do you wish to make canonical for the Mongoose Third Imperium? You can find most of the rules in T5, but this being Traveller not all the rules in T5 describe the Agent of the Imperium setting :)
 
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