Jump point bomb fixes

[Harry Lonsdale]

Unless I'm missing something (I didn't wade through the 11 pages of this "discussion" in the main thread :wink: ) wouldn't the "Each ship must come out of its own jump point" option mean that you can't keep a ship without the JP trait in hyperspace? That seems a pretty drastic change to try and fix JPB.

 

[katadder]

no the idea is that if a ship opens a JP it must use it. any other ship can come out of said JP but a ship cant open a JP then use someone elses (i mean why would you really)

 

[sidewinder]

I've been looking at all this talk about JPB's and I was just wondering. Does everone just play free form games or do you use scenerios out of the book, cause like only 2 or 3 of the basic scenerios actually allow ships to be held in hyperspace.

 

[Iain McGhee]

no the idea is that if a ship opens a JP it must use it. any other ship can come out of said JP but a ship cant open a JP then use someone elses (i mean why would you really)

And no opening JPs to jump bomb with no intention of bringing on any ships.

 

[katadder]

exactly. although i didnt vote for this option this combined with the test rules would IMO be the best way to go.

 

[Commador Q]

no the idea is that if a ship opens a JP it must use it. any other ship can come out of said JP but a ship cant open a JP then use someone elses (i mean why would you really)

since you can't bring the ship that generated the JP through untill the turn after generating, opening multiple jump points allows you to use whichever one is most advantagous when the ships finally get to emerge. Alternatively placing 2 JPs on the field and only using one prevents your oponrnt from positioning his fleet optimally for attacking whatever comes through the JP. and finally there is the posibility that in the turn before the ship can actually enter, the battle takes drasticly enough a turn for the worst that the ship in hyperspace is better off, not entering the battel at all.

 

[katadder]

true but the reverse is that you can bring all your ships out the best positioned one, which is wrong. if a ship opens a JP it shouldnt be able to pull out and suddenly go down another one. would be very hard to actually do anyway due to the JP being right in front of you then you have to full reverse engines and manouvre to go down the other persons JP.

whats wrong with ships manouvering to face your JPs? thats part of the idea, means they are probably facing away from you main fleet which is already enough of an advantage that you dont need multiple ones (as IMO thats pure cheese worse than any beam team or bat squad) and all come out of the best one.

yes you could decide not to come through at all, wouldnt have a problem with that, especially as the test rules seen limit you to one jump per ship. so you keep your JP open for 3 turns, the battle goes badly, so you close it and dont come back.

see my only gripe is the thing you actually said to do, which is open multiple JPs then choose the best one for all your ships. now we want things closer to the show, is this what happens? no and would be almost impossible to do unless they are opening JPs on top of each other in hyperspace which would probably blow up all the ships in HS.

if a ship expends all the energy needed to open a JP then sometime in the next 3 turns realistically that ship should use the JP it opened, not someone elses.

 

[Commador Q]

true but the reverse is that you can bring all your ships out the best positioned one, which is wrong. if a ship opens a JP it shouldnt be able to pull out and suddenly go down another one. would be very hard to actually do anyway due to the JP being right in front of you then you have to full reverse engines and manouvre to go down the other persons JP.

but several times in the show ships generate jump points that aren't in front of them. the Wshite Star does it when fleeing a shadow ship, the EA ships do it when retreating after first contact with the Minbari etc.

If you have ships on the table (and you must or you'd have lost last turn), they could relay the positions of the enemy to their reenforcments in hyperspace who open several jump points and then manuver to go through one based on the recomendation of the ships already in normal space. granted it takes a lot of comunication, and precise planning, but so would any of a number of other tactics commonly used (weaving White Stars so they cover each other against fighters for example).

I'm personally against any sugestion that aims to prevent jump point bombs by making it harder to use hyperspace tactically at all.

with the second eddition rule sugestion, JPBs are scenario specific, because they require ships in hyperspace reserves (something determined by scenario), they require prier planning (your fleet must have an AJP ship in hyperspace and a scout on the field), there's a chance for failyer (the CQ check), and the targte can potentally avoid the effect even if everything goes according to plan (you still have to roll the actual AD). given all that, i don't see JPbs being used except by a few fleets (Minbari and ISA come to mind) and even then only on rare ocasions when the player meant to use that tactic ahead of time (or if the enemy hapened to leave himself open to it and the other conditions are still met). And in either of those cases i think JPBs should be allowed.

forcing a ship to come through it's own jump point doesn't prevent JPBs it just means you have to use either an expendable ship, or a ship that can handle being in the midst of the enemy fleet. besides, a fair amoutn of the time i'd say the ship that used the JPB will come through anyway.

banning the tactic except in scenarios that specifically allow it is foolish because if it is ever allowed there needs to be a good rule system for it.

simply banning the tactic would be bad from, because it's an iconic manuver from the series, so what if it only hapened once? the centauri only used mass drivers once, the shadows only collabpsed jump points once, and the narn only used emines once. in short, it's something a lot of people would like to try at least once just because it's memerable and flashy, so there should be a mechanic for it even if it's almost usless in practicall play.

 

[Sulfurdown]

If the rumours are true and the Jump Point trait is moving to a One-Shot function - wouldn't that make using multiple ships to open jump points and then NOT using a jump point a fairly dedicated tactic? You reserve four ships in H/S and they all open jump points, all go through one point, none of them have any JP after that in the case were you might need to escape, they are committed to the battle.

If you only get one use for a scenario then you'd have to be very sure that you want to use it to 'mislead' the opponent because you A) don't get another chance and B) if you make a mistake and don't reserve ships that still have the energy to produce a JP, you could end up stranded.

 

[Valen is my name]

can you open a jump point onto a shp whilst in realspace, i.e open a jump point as if you wanted to exit into hyperspace where a ship is, or can you only do it from hyperspace?

 

[Burger]

You can, but it doesn't cause a shockwave (so no jump point bomb).
Well actually you can't open it on top of another ship due to the no stacking rule.

 

[Iain McGhee]

You can open one wherever you like (pretty much) , but opening a point from Realspace to Hyperspace doesn't damage any ships in it's forward arc as the "blast" effect will be in Hyperspace.

 

[Commador Q]

can you open a jump point onto a shp whilst in realspace, i.e open a jump point as if you wanted to exit into hyperspace where a ship is, or can you only do it from hyperspace?

you can but it wouln't damage the ship you opened it on top of.

If the rumours are true and the Jump Point trait is moving to a One-Shot function - wouldn't that make using multiple ships to open jump points and then NOT using a jump point a fairly dedicated tactic? You reserve four ships in H/S and they all open jump points, all go through one point, none of them have any JP after that in the case were you might need to escape, they are committed to the battle.

If you only get one use for a scenario then you'd have to be very sure that you want to use it to 'mislead' the opponent because you A) don't get another chance and B) if you make a mistake and don't reserve ships that still have the energy to produce a JP, you could end up stranded.

not nesesarily, say i have 4 ships in hyperspace with AJP (or to a lesser extent JP), i can then open 2 jump points on oposit ends of the field, forcing my oponent to either divide his forces and prepare for enemys comming through both, or to expose a weeker front to one or the other. then i can bring any combination of my ships into real space through any combination of those 2 jump points (leaving 2 of them with the ability to open an escape rout) or simply let them close, and open up to 2 later.

alternatively you could just use a jump capable ship already on the field to open the escape point.

but yes you are correct in thinking that it's commiting a scare reasourse to a tactic that could fail. That in my opinion is why it's such a good tactc (good as in shouldn't be removed in order to "fix" another issue), it's chance for sucess depends on how well planned your use of it is, and you aren't likely to get a second chance at it if it goes badly. also like many tactics the viability of it depends in part on which fleet you play, the ISA for example can do tricks like this prety easily because every one of their ships has AJP, and therefore they can afford to open a few extera jump points if it gives them a positionall advantage when they eventually come through.[/quote]

 

[Iain McGhee]

It's not a matter of removing the "decoy Jump Point" trick to prevent jump bombs, it's more that it was never done in the series and although it is allowed in the (current) rules it's not really in the spirit of the B5 universe and while banning it would limit the tactical uses of Hyperspace reinforcements it would be much more in line with the way it should work. And making ACTA more like the series is one of the apparent aims of V2 anyway.

 

[katadder]

exactly.

and as for Commador Qs comments - how can it ever go wrong? theres no variable involved apart from how your opponent reacts and however he reacts with current rules the enemy will always be behind him as they can choose which jump point to use.
which is why my idea of you have to use decoy ships - so perhaps use 2 bluestars (or hermes or whatever low choice JP you have) to open JPs where ever you want. now the opponent still has to choose what to do but at least one bluestar would be in front of him. its called sacrificing ships for tactical options and decoys. at the moment thats not a problem so its not even a tactic as such, just a basic manouvre as much full of cheese as a beam team or bat squad.

 

[Burger]

It's not a matter of removing the "decoy Jump Point" trick to prevent jump bombs, it's more that it was never done in the series

But if we were limited to doing only what was done in the series, the game would be very dull indeed. We need the freedom to use our tools as we see fit.

 

[Sulfurdown]

Caution: Concept has not been thoroughly thought through
What if the penalties for Initiate Jump Point! are extended to the round after the IJP! is performed?

EDIT: not saying it's going to solve anything, just curious about it's preceived impact on strategy.

 

[Ripple]

I have to agree with Katadder on this one.

You want the ability of to attack from either side of the enemy. Given you already have ships on the table just being able to jump in at all means you are getting a two front attack already. Do you really need to be able to do it even better?

There is a comment that it could go wrong somehow. No, the only thing that can really go wrong I suppose is a bad scatter roll, which AJP won't have, but even there it would have to be a really bad scatter roll.

And on the fluff, I absolutely agree that the 'you have to have the jp in your front arc' is bogus. We clearly see ships opening jump points and then doing the stop and pivot maneuver to enter them. A jump point should simply stay open the three turns once opened as long as you stay within range.

BUT....and yes its a big one...that does not in any way support the idea that my fleet in hyperspace should be able to freely enter any jump point facing any direction as if they did not exist before the move. They still had some formation in hyperspace and they still had to be somewhat near those jump points. Maybe whitestars could pull off the maneuvers necessary to flip from one side of the table to the other and come in from opposite their original heading, but I just have trouble seeing say an Omega pull off the stunt.

I think you should have to come through you own point largely because that jump point says you are 'here' in relation to real space. It still lets you play games with the rest of your fleet in hyper, but at least that one ship no longer has a 'quantum uncertainty' about where it is. (and yes I'm using the term wrong...sue me) If you choose to simply not enter, fine, you have expended a ship for its decoy value losing the minimium possible vps, but at least the tactic had a cost.

Oh...and for the last time, I promise, please stop talking about jbp as if you will only be able to use it offensively in 'the middle' of an enemy formation. It's absolute best use has remained the removal of otherwise unreachable ships hiding behind the formation, or ships using stealth/terrain to become effectively immune to guns. This is how corvans and vaarls survive against most fleets, but die suddenly to jbp capable fleets. Or for that matter Delphi's. Let me open a point on your scout, then jump in through the other points closer to the action. That's the kind of abuse I'm used to seeing/contemplating.

Ripple

 

[Commador Q]

first of all the argument that we never saw multiple jump points used as a distraction tactic in the series is flawed, in that virtually all of the times jump points are used to enter a battle after it has begun, are either a single ship, or an uncoordinated fleet. and usually they have enough firepower that they don't need to rely on clever distractions to defeat their enemy.

as for how things can go wrong both post countering that coment mentioned the very way it can go wrong, your oponent chooses how he will respond to the activation of the jump points, and if you haven't coordinated your use of the decoys better than he corrdinates his counter manuvers, you've wasted at least one jump point. for example, say i place 2 jump points on oposit sides of an enemy fleet, hopping it will force him to split his fleet as he can't manuver to engage both, but instead he focuses on one of the Jump points and opens his own JP for his reenforcmets, behind the other of my jump points. Now i have to choose in what way i expose my ships to his, or if i wast the jump points and stay in hyperspace. ether way, i didn't get the effect i was trying for which was to split his fleet so my ships in real space could gain a positional advantage. i don't see this as being cheese as it really does come down to how well each player manages the fleets they have, rather than simply how many jump points they can open.

as for how the jump points can be in such distant places:
as i understand it, hyperspace is basically a smaller parallel universe where every point in our universe maps directly to a point in hyperspace, but the points in hyperspace are closer together, so it would be analogus to realspace being the outer edge of a thick walled sphere while hypersoace is the inner edge (then by pocking a hole from the outer edge to the inner edge along a radial line you mimic a jump point). because hyperspace is smaller than real space, a realatively short distance in hyperspace coresponds to a larger distance in real space (because of how the angle works). thus the several kilometers between 2 jump points in hyperspace sould easily be hundres or thousands of kilometers in real space.

 

[Sulfurdown]

IIRC from comments from JMS et al, Hyperspace is far more fluid then a 1-1 relationship. You end up with weird self-overlaying points in hyperspace and some places can be equivilant of multiple realspace points or some realspace points have multiple h/s points. That's part of the reason for the drift in opening vortex. It's also why you can't open a R/S > H/S vortex to try to hunt down ships waiting in hyperspace.