Don't forget the strategic and tactical considerations of the existence of Jump gates. Such gates would be primary targets in times of war. Any military would love to control both sides of a gate because of the traffic control it provides, making it both a high priority target and a stationary point for the posting of serious defenses. The Honor Harrington series by David Weber has some excellent ideas for such situations.
Jump Gates - Your Thoughts
- Thread starter Solomani666
- Start date
jasongee0656
Mongoose
SSWarlock said:
I have never read the Honor Harrington series by David Weber; however, you know I am going to now... Thank you for the aurthor drop.
SSWarlock provides a great example for an adventure or mission hook. I have done similar missions/adventures in the past. Another good source for jump-gates would be the Wing Commander / Privateer series and Eve-online. It has been years since I played Battletech\Mechwarrior Pen n' Paper rpg, but that game system might have had jump-gates, again I can't remember.
Weber also did a lot of work around the Starfire universe, that had jump points in it. It's slightly different than the wormhole terminus ideas from Honor Harrington, but similar enough.
I would suspect that any fleet attacking a jump gate would try to board and control, and that the defending player would rarely, if ever, blow one up. They would be too valuable for either side to own and control.
I would suspect that any fleet attacking a jump gate would try to board and control, and that the defending player would rarely, if ever, blow one up. They would be too valuable for either side to own and control.
Solomani666
Mongoose
SSWarlock said:
IMTU jump gates are simply used to create a bubble for ships without them needing to use their own fuel or jump engines. In all other respects they follow the Traveller rules. Only one jump gate is needed for a one way trip.
Solomani666
Mongoose
phavoc said:
IMTU you would be welcome to try to board and capture one, just be prepared to fight 500-1000+ Aslan females in power armor who are willing to blow up the ship should they fear it will be lost.
If it's 'in' only, and not part of a two-way pair, then if it's in enemy territory, during a war I'd be more than happy to blow it up.
I suspect they're talking about something more resembling a two-way wormhole gate; hence the reference to the manticore junction in Honor Harrington.
I suspect they're talking about something more resembling a two-way wormhole gate; hence the reference to the manticore junction in Honor Harrington.
jasongee0656
Mongoose
This has been a really good thread about jump-gates. I had to dig out Cowboy Bebop (series) to how they handled the jump gates.
On another note – I am still learning the Traveller rules, since I only got my Handbook at Christmas; however, I like the idea that Solomani666 pointed out that jump-gate “in all other respects they follow the Traveller rules,” which makes jump-gates very easy to govern in game. Thank Solomani666 for the latter, because I never thought of doing that – using the jump rule machines to govern jump-gates.
On another note – I am still learning the Traveller rules, since I only got my Handbook at Christmas; however, I like the idea that Solomani666 pointed out that jump-gate “in all other respects they follow the Traveller rules,” which makes jump-gates very easy to govern in game. Thank Solomani666 for the latter, because I never thought of doing that – using the jump rule machines to govern jump-gates.
jasongee0656
Mongoose
What series did the Starfire universe come from?phavoc said:
Dave Chase
Mongoose
Some old musing on the subject
IMO, Jump Gates
Jump Portals, IMO are fixed jump engines that allow ships with out Jump Drive to travel between stars.
At first, gates only work one way and are limited to a ship size up to 1000 tons. A gate must be focused/aligned to a particle star/coordinate or the ship gets lost. Each gate is preset to a set jump distance (1-6).
After a few years, gates get variable jump between 1-6.
Original gate stats:
Gate----Mass----Fuel----JDrive----Comp
G1------3000----600-----120--------4
G2------4000----1200----400--------5
G3------5000----1800----800--------6
G4------6000----2400----1320-------7
G5------7500----3000----2100-------8
G6------9000----3600----3060-------9
Fuel usage is the same no matter size of ship jumping through. So sending either a 100 ton or 2000 ton ship through a G4 gate will take 24000 tons of fuel.
2000 tons of the mass is space for the ship to enter.
Jump Drives must be figured using total JumpGate mass or else the gate will fail (bright enough explosion to be seen through out the star system.)
Ships need a jump net build into the ship but does not need jump engines. This cost 75% and takes 50% of the tonnage of a J1 Drive for a ship of the same size.
ie. 200 ton ship would normally require 20 tons of J1 Drive but a jump ship set up to use only Jump Gates would only need 10 tons.
If a ship that has a jump drive it can not have it running or turn it on during the use of the jump gate. The jump gate must be 100 dia from a planetary mass.
G2 is available 3 years after G1. G3 is available 2 years after G2. G4 is available 1 year after G3 and G5&G6 are both available 1 year after G4 (or G5&G6 are available 7 years after G1 comes on line.
After G4 comes available R&D starts developing 2 way gates. These gates allow twice the distance of the gate capacity initiating the Jump. Ie. G1 can now send up to a 1000ton ship Jump2 as long as there is a receiving gate at the location.
These gates are designated with a D after the number.
Double Distant Gates:
Gate----Mass----Fuel----JDrive----Comp
G1D-----3000----600-----120--------8
G2D-----4000----1200----400--------9
G3D-----5000----1800----800--------9+9
G4D-----6000----2400----1320-------9+9
G5D-----7500----3000----2100-------9+9
G6D-----9000----3600----3060-------9+9
9+9: Requires 2 model 9 computers working in conjunction
One issue that was a concern in the beginning about Gate to Gate jumping was ships exiting while a ship was trying to enter that same gate. For some unexplained reason it never happened.
Gate operators did discover the following from trial and ERRORS:
1. Never attempt to send more than 1 ship at a time even if the total weight is less than 1000 tons.
2. Always allow minimum of 15 minutes between sendings so that any ships exiting the gate have time to enter space and leave the corridor.
3. Reccomend that max speed entering gate be kept to 3G's. Scrapping the side of a Jump Gate has made ships entering never appear again. In 2 cases the jump gate exploded (and ship was never seen/heard from again.
4. Make sure that ships entering gate actually have a jump net or functioning Jump drive hull before allowing them to enter. Ships have never been seen again that do not have one.
5. Never engage the gate when there is any damage to the gate structure. Gates have disappeared (no explosions).
Using gates will allow even space ships (non-starships)to travel between the stars as long as they have a jump net.
Using a G4D or bigger gate will allow greater distances to be covered in the same amount of time. Example a G6D Gate to Gate jump can cover a distance of 12 in one week where a normal J6 would take a min of 3 weeks to make the same trip. (2 weeks jump with 1 week travel+refuelling).
Of course this is all unofficial and just one character's dream.
Dave Chase
IMO, Jump Gates
Jump Portals, IMO are fixed jump engines that allow ships with out Jump Drive to travel between stars.
At first, gates only work one way and are limited to a ship size up to 1000 tons. A gate must be focused/aligned to a particle star/coordinate or the ship gets lost. Each gate is preset to a set jump distance (1-6).
After a few years, gates get variable jump between 1-6.
Original gate stats:
Gate----Mass----Fuel----JDrive----Comp
G1------3000----600-----120--------4
G2------4000----1200----400--------5
G3------5000----1800----800--------6
G4------6000----2400----1320-------7
G5------7500----3000----2100-------8
G6------9000----3600----3060-------9
Fuel usage is the same no matter size of ship jumping through. So sending either a 100 ton or 2000 ton ship through a G4 gate will take 24000 tons of fuel.
2000 tons of the mass is space for the ship to enter.
Jump Drives must be figured using total JumpGate mass or else the gate will fail (bright enough explosion to be seen through out the star system.)
Ships need a jump net build into the ship but does not need jump engines. This cost 75% and takes 50% of the tonnage of a J1 Drive for a ship of the same size.
ie. 200 ton ship would normally require 20 tons of J1 Drive but a jump ship set up to use only Jump Gates would only need 10 tons.
If a ship that has a jump drive it can not have it running or turn it on during the use of the jump gate. The jump gate must be 100 dia from a planetary mass.
G2 is available 3 years after G1. G3 is available 2 years after G2. G4 is available 1 year after G3 and G5&G6 are both available 1 year after G4 (or G5&G6 are available 7 years after G1 comes on line.
After G4 comes available R&D starts developing 2 way gates. These gates allow twice the distance of the gate capacity initiating the Jump. Ie. G1 can now send up to a 1000ton ship Jump2 as long as there is a receiving gate at the location.
These gates are designated with a D after the number.
Double Distant Gates:
Gate----Mass----Fuel----JDrive----Comp
G1D-----3000----600-----120--------8
G2D-----4000----1200----400--------9
G3D-----5000----1800----800--------9+9
G4D-----6000----2400----1320-------9+9
G5D-----7500----3000----2100-------9+9
G6D-----9000----3600----3060-------9+9
9+9: Requires 2 model 9 computers working in conjunction
One issue that was a concern in the beginning about Gate to Gate jumping was ships exiting while a ship was trying to enter that same gate. For some unexplained reason it never happened.
Gate operators did discover the following from trial and ERRORS:
1. Never attempt to send more than 1 ship at a time even if the total weight is less than 1000 tons.
2. Always allow minimum of 15 minutes between sendings so that any ships exiting the gate have time to enter space and leave the corridor.
3. Reccomend that max speed entering gate be kept to 3G's. Scrapping the side of a Jump Gate has made ships entering never appear again. In 2 cases the jump gate exploded (and ship was never seen/heard from again.
4. Make sure that ships entering gate actually have a jump net or functioning Jump drive hull before allowing them to enter. Ships have never been seen again that do not have one.
5. Never engage the gate when there is any damage to the gate structure. Gates have disappeared (no explosions).
Using gates will allow even space ships (non-starships)to travel between the stars as long as they have a jump net.
Using a G4D or bigger gate will allow greater distances to be covered in the same amount of time. Example a G6D Gate to Gate jump can cover a distance of 12 in one week where a normal J6 would take a min of 3 weeks to make the same trip. (2 weeks jump with 1 week travel+refuelling).
Of course this is all unofficial and just one character's dream.
Dave Chase
Liam Devlin
Mongoose
Solomani666 said:
Fascinating!
So, does YTU's JG's have the multi-parsec capability (e;g. Jump-1 through Jump-6)?
What fees does YTU assess for the trip to non-jump ships?
interested,
Liam Devlin
Liam Devlin
Mongoose
Mr. Chase,
same questions sir.
Also (for you & Mr. Solomani666), what is YTU/ Ideal time of travel/ parsec via the JG's?
interested,
Liam Devlin
same questions sir.
Also (for you & Mr. Solomani666), what is YTU/ Ideal time of travel/ parsec via the JG's?
interested,
Liam Devlin
Dave Chase
Mongoose
Liam Devlin said:
Dave Chase said:
Already covered
The idea is that in the beginning, the Jump Gate/Portal technology is so new that the initial gates are preset in distance. Over time, say 3 to 5 years after the new technology is been in place, and the longer distance gates have been built, they will discover how to vary the Jump distance.
Of course that is assuming that the Gate was built to specs to the longer Jump capability.
Ie. A model G1 Jump Gate will never be able to send a ship farther than Jump 1, but a Model G4 could send a ship Jump 1, 2, 3 or 4.
Those older shorter gates will still be of some value as they could handle side traffic for shorter runs. Also there would the desire to retro fit some of the older gates to the D type (gate to gate traffic) which would cost as much but take less time than building a new Gate of the D type.
As for length of time in Jump, no change. That would be messing with the OTU way to much. As it is, now that you could (with my proposal) send non-jump capable ships the same distance as Jump capable ones, it will change many small things, specially for the merchants and cargo. All that extra space from not having a Jump Drive will make some runs more profitable for the new Gate Ships, whether that be passengers, or cargo.
Also, now that you can send military ships into an empty hex via the Jump Gate/Portal with out burning up any Jump Fuel, you have added a whole new level of military strategy and tactics.
When the Jump 4 - 6 gates come on line, you could out manuver your enemy with a first strike from a direction that they never thought of. That empty rift that you could not cross before with out major expense and long time, will become profitable for the MegaCorp that can build a working Jump Gate there first. Specially if they make it a Type D gate on both sides, 12 Parsecs anyone
Of course I have some back history and some other details that make it a chore for any Mega Corp or the Imperium to build these things. But that is IMTU.
Dave Chase
Liam Devlin
Mongoose
Thank you verymuch Mr. Chase!
I very much like the idea of the Double JG's (paired, and x2 the parsecs) especially. Keeping the Jump time OTU length (6days +/- 12hours) as a constant seems fair enough. I would ask how much (yes the crunchy details) do they (the system owners of the Jump Gate(s) )charge for the passage to nonjump vessels?
I would imagine a flat rate since the gates handle 1-ship at time, interspersed 15 minutes apart, and each gate has a maximum tonnage capacity, or like MGT's Starports, do you have a rate for small vessels, and larger vessels?
Intrigued still,
Liam Devlin
I very much like the idea of the Double JG's (paired, and x2 the parsecs) especially. Keeping the Jump time OTU length (6days +/- 12hours) as a constant seems fair enough. I would ask how much (yes the crunchy details) do they (the system owners of the Jump Gate(s) )charge for the passage to nonjump vessels?
I would imagine a flat rate since the gates handle 1-ship at time, interspersed 15 minutes apart, and each gate has a maximum tonnage capacity, or like MGT's Starports, do you have a rate for small vessels, and larger vessels?
Intrigued still,
Liam Devlin
Liam Devlin
Mongoose
I admit, my interest stems from having a Player-character with a 30dton Ship's Boat as his inheritance, and working his passage across the stars as a passenger and freight ferryman, and "working a system" until he had passage or opportunity to move with his vessel along the subsector's trade routes.
In the GM's setting and with few players, this was not as onerous as it seems, and a starjack with skills could make an honest living--especially with systems with downport E & D-class ports in need of ferrying folks to and from orbit to ships that could not land.
Having a gate-system in an ATU would allow even such characters to wind their way along JG-trade routes and speculate a few small cargoes themselves, with a stateroom added to their space craft, or two....
Hmmm!
Liam Devlin
In the GM's setting and with few players, this was not as onerous as it seems, and a starjack with skills could make an honest living--especially with systems with downport E & D-class ports in need of ferrying folks to and from orbit to ships that could not land.
Having a gate-system in an ATU would allow even such characters to wind their way along JG-trade routes and speculate a few small cargoes themselves, with a stateroom added to their space craft, or two....
Hmmm!
Liam Devlin
jasongee0656
Mongoose
Dave Chase said:Liam Devlin said:
Dave Chase said:
Already covered
The idea is that in the beginning, the Jump Gate/Portal technology is so new that the initial gates are preset in distance. Over time, say 3 to 5 years after the new technology is been in place, and the longer distance gates have been built, they will discover how to vary the Jump distance.
Of course that is assuming that the Gate was built to specs to the longer Jump capability.
Ie. A model G1 Jump Gate will never be able to send a ship farther than Jump 1, but a Model G4 could send a ship Jump 1, 2, 3 or 4.
Those older shorter gates will still be of some value as they could handle side traffic for shorter runs. Also there would the desire to retro fit some of the older gates to the D type (gate to gate traffic) which would cost as much but take less time than building a new Gate of the D type.
As for length of time in Jump, no change. That would be messing with the OTU way to much. As it is, now that you could (with my proposal) send non-jump capable ships the same distance as Jump capable ones, it will change many small things, specially for the merchants and cargo. All that extra space from not having a Jump Drive will make some runs more profitable for the new Gate Ships, whether that be passengers, or cargo.
Also, now that you can send military ships into an empty hex via the Jump Gate/Portal with out burning up any Jump Fuel, you have added a whole new level of military strategy and tactics.
When the Jump 4 - 6 gates come on line, you could out manuver your enemy with a first strike from a direction that they never thought of. That empty rift that you could not cross before with out major expense and long time, will become profitable for the MegaCorp that can build a working Jump Gate there first. Specially if they make it a Type D gate on both sides, 12 Parsecs anyone
Of course I have some back history and some other details that make it a chore for any Mega Corp or the Imperium to build these things. But that is IMTU.
Dave Chase
Very nice back ground info. I did something similar and associated a Jump Distance with my Jump Gate back when I was trying to run a campaign with GURPS; however, I never really used too much detail, just winged it as I went, since I was always overwhelmed with GURPS.
Dave Chase
Mongoose
Liam Devlin said:
Well in the Beginning the cost for jump gate use would be at the min the same as the cost of Jumping a ship of 2000 tons +10% for overhead.
Some Mega Corp gates charged more to non-alliance companies or freelancers.
The Imperium Charges a bit less but they reserve the right to inspect any ship before it enters the que for the Jump Gate. (some claim that they scan each ship just before it enters the Gate/Portal)
After a few years (or decades) the gates will probably balance out and become cheaper per jump passage after the new wears off and other gates are being built.
Also, since more non-jump ships are probably being built and the usage goes up, the profits go up and with more gates, the more competition (over time) the prices will have to drop some.
Another possible price increase or difference would be that non-Jump capable ships would receive a lower cost of usage compared to a Jump capable ship. Why, to help encourage more traffic of the kind that requires the Jump gate to make a profit.
For example in MTU the price for Jump Gate
In the Beginning 125KCr per use (no matter what size Jump Gate)
After about 5 years or so, 80KCr per use
After about 10 years or so, 25KCr per use (Double this for Type D gates)
For a Portal which will come available 5-7 years after the first Jump Gates are online
In the Beginning 110KCR per use (Double prices for Type D portals)
After about 5 years or so, 100 KCr per use
After about 10 years or so, 30 KCr per use
Oh, and the difference between a Gate and Portal?
A Gate fires up its Jump capacity each time it is going to be used
A Portal stays open all the time (except during maintenance)
A Gate works well for places were the Jump Gate is not used hourly/daily
A Portal works well where the use is hourly
Portals do not cost any more to make than a Gate (as the technology advances the prices for the equipment drop enough to make them the same cost) but they do cost more to maintain (1.5 times more maintanence and annual service costs)
A Gate requires its needed fuel for each Jump use
A Portal requires its needed fuel for each Hour of use
Oh, and in the beginning, there are rumors about what being stationed on a Jump Gate/Portal does to crew. For some unknown after about 3 years of Jump Gates being used in the universe, No Company or the Imperium, station any crew on Jump Gates/Portals any more. They all claim that the technology to operate them has improved and the Gates/Portals can be operated more efficiently, remotely.
Once in a while you will get a wild story or 5 from the manned refueling crews or service crews, but everyone just puts that down as Bar room ghost stories.
I have been working on this concept for for the last few years in detail. It's been a ongoing thought project for over 3 decades.
Dave Chase
