Jump Gates - Your Thoughts

Solomani666

Mongoose
IMTU I have TL16 race that in addition to using normal jump drives, has a network of Jump Gates.

Normally a ship creates the jump point, moves into it, then inflates the jumpspace bubble and travels about its, merry way.

In the case of a jump gate, the gate itself creates the jump point using it own jump engines, injects hydrogen into it to expand the bubble, the then ship simply moves into the jump bubble and it's off.

All the standard rules are used to determine the jump drive engine size needed as well as the fuel consumption. The drawback being that an extra 40 + 1d6 x 10% of extra fuel is required because some of the hydrogen gets lost and does not make it into the jump bubble.

My question is:
If the jumping ship does not have it's own jump drive will the ship still arrive at the navigated coordinates, or will the jump gate need to aim the ship toward a star or gas giant in order to get the ship out of jump space?
 
In MTU there are a few jump gates all of which are paired, one gate leads to one and only one. The recieving gate can only send back to the first gate. This way if you have them you control where the players can go with them. I also ruled having the 2 gate system negates the misjump roll. All the jump gates are ancient devices and knowledge of how to create them is unknown. All the jump gates in MTU also can only handle ships up to 500 dtons, a larger ship can use them but only if it is needle configuration. All the other configurations are just to wide to fit through the gate physically.
 
Interesting idea. Since MgT's jump is officially a "blow up the bubble and drift" form of jumpdrive, your system makes sense. (Older takes on j-drives have them running the whole time you're in j-space.)

I would imagine that systems would have j-gates that aim for different destinations. You might find it useful to have J-3 or longer gates (you could even make them J-4 gates, but only along drawn X-boat routes...) and rely on a ship's own J-1 or J-2 drives for the "off route" worlds.

My gut feeling is that a ship with no j-drive will not control the jump in any way, but since the jump will decay at a predictable rate, the net effect is the same - roll for jump accuracy as normal. The gate does all the hard work, and the ship is just along for the ride. In fact, there's no reason (aside from life support requirements) that you couldn't jump small craft or even barges that are essentially the cargo version of X-boats (using M- instead of J- drives).
 
Solomani666 said:
If the jumping ship does not have it's own jump drive will the ship still arrive at the navigated coordinates, or will the jump gate need to aim the ship toward a star or gas giant in order to get the ship out of jump space?
As I understand it, the jump distance would depend on the
jump gate's jump rating and the amount of hydrogen used
to create the jump bubble around the ship, so in my view
the ship should arrive at the coordinates the gate aimed for.
For example, a jump 3 gate could send the ship to any coor-
dinates 1, 2 or 3 parsecs away, depending on the amount of
hydrogen used for the jump bubble. However, different ver-
sions of Traveller have different descriptions of the jump dri-
ve's function (e.g. whether the ship needs a jump grid or not),
so there will certainly be different opinions on this - just choo-
se the one that fits your setting best.
 
Since Jump Gates aren't canon, it's easy enough to come up with your own rules.

If you are trying to somewhat stick to the rules, then you'll need the jumpgates to be BIG in order to satisfy the 100D mass issue. That means you can have different size jump gates for different sized ships, thus limiting ships to specific systems based on their size. Small ships can go just about anywhere, where larger ships would only stick to the more well-travelled paths that justify the larger gates.

Fuel usage shouldn't be an issue since you can store it externally on the gate, and hydrogen is plentiful in systems with gas giants.

One thing to determine is do you want a ship using a jump gate to have to both enter and leave jump space via the jump gate. If you do then you would have ships departures put on a schedule and the gate would activate for X system on a specific time and date to ensure ships would not collide coming and going. Also gives the referee more opportunities to find fun things to do to PC's and their starships. :)

Probably you should place the jump gates 'above' and 'below' the plane of the eliptic, and designate one area as inbound and another outbound. And use the ships travelling back and forth as your communication devices to send updated jump schedules, expected transit ships, dates, etc.

I would probably say that any jump gate can send a craft to any jump gate within range, and just adjust your fuel usage based on that. Transit fees would apply, based upon the fuel usage. You could charge an escalting cost for further jumps, but that really depends on how you design the background for your gates. If longer jumps are harder, then charge more for wear and tear. If not, its a flat rate no matter how far you jump.
 
I would be curious as to what would happen if you had the jump gates doing the equivalent of Jump 2 or something to that affect, and then activated the ships jump drive inside? :)
 
jwlovell said:
I would be curious as to what would happen if you had the jump gates doing the equivalent of Jump 2 or something to that affect, and then activated the ships jump drive inside? :)

That sounds bad... Very bad!...
 
phavoc said:
Since Jump Gates aren't canon, it's easy enough to come up with your own rules.

If you are trying to somewhat stick to the rules, then you'll need the jumpgates to be BIG in order to satisfy the 100D mass issue.
I haven't specked them out yet, but they are huge. Probably 500K or 1M dtons. Some may be smaller.

One thing to determine is do you want a ship using a jump gate to have to both enter and leave jump space via the jump gate.
No gate is required at the destination. I want to keep this as close to the Traveller rules as possible. Nothing magical going on here, just using another ships (albeit a specially designed ship) jump engines. All the other criteria as per the rules have to be met. Drive size, fuel, etc. I added the hydrogen waste rule, because it seems reasonable.

I would probably say that any jump gate can send a craft to any jump gate within range, and just adjust your fuel usage based on that.
Based on the size of the ship going through the gate and the ships destination distance, the jump gate uses a percentage of its jump drive power and injects the necessarily amount of hydrogen (taking into account the spill over) to fill the bubble.

The maximum jump distance is still limited to 6.

.
 
As I understand it, the bubble 'decays' over time - you don't need to specifically do anything to drop back into normal space, after about a week it'll happen anyway. The only question is where you'll be when you do.

I'd plunk in a negative DM on the jump check - if these gates are essentially free passage, you've (a) got a problem of not necessarily knowing the mass of the ship you're 'throwing' accurately enough, and (b) the problem of a whacking great jumpgate structure nearby at the point you jump (its 100d distance won't be very big relative to a planet, but you'll be very close!) - this will mess with the jump a bit, in the same way drop tanks make it harder for ships to jump accurately.
 
Solomani666 said:
jwlovell said:
I would be curious as to what would happen if you had the jump gates doing the equivalent of Jump 2 or something to that affect, and then activated the ships jump drive inside? :)

That sounds bad... Very bad!...

From what i recall from the Babylon V episode its actually called the "Bonehead Maneuver" with no offence intended to any Minbari as its considered a very stupid and ultimately suicidal action unless you're using a white star class ship or something better and even then it did take out a shadow battleship that was otherwise nigh on invulnerable except to large amounts of firepower backed by a psion disrupting its living mind interfaces... all very icky but it also takes out the jump gate as i recall...

Still the dm has the final say in any case!
 
Given that it was first seriously experimented with during the Minbari war, I wouldn't be too sure about the 'no offense intended' comment...

And yes, it was essentially "that's not good...not good.....runnnnnnnn!!!!!"

Unfortunately, no pre-white star ship was fast enough to avoid the (rather excessively lethal) shockwave.

Of course, the metaphysics is somewhat different - a traveller jump drive creates its own little sealed universe and floats off in it, whilst a B5 jump engine is analagous to a traveller 'hyperspace drive', punching a small hole into a seperate universe.

As to the effect, who knows? Maybe its the basis of how Grandfather makes pocket universes....
 
locarno24 said:
I'd plunk in a negative DM on the jump check - if these gates are essentially free passage, you've (a) got a problem of not necessarily knowing the mass of the ship you're 'throwing' accurately enough, and
The actual mass of the ship is measured before the jump is calculated.

I'm pretty sure that a core/10 computer can calculate all the needed variables to make a safe and accurate jump without penalty.

(b) the problem of a whacking great jumpgate structure nearby at the point you jump (its 100d distance won't be very big relative to a planet, but you'll be very close!) - this will mess with the jump a bit, in the same way drop tanks make it harder for ships to jump accurately.
Drop tanks make a jump more difficult because they are mounted outside if the ship that is actually making the jump and can distort the warp bubble.

Since even a Tigresses mass does not collapse its own bubble, there is no reason that a 500k+ jump gate (a starship actually) would effect the jump. A ship of even 1M dtons is infinitely small when compared even to a small moon. Even if a micro, micro gravity field were created, I am sure this can be calculated and compensated for with a core/10 computer.
 
Anyway, any problems caused by the nearby mass of the jump
gate would certainly disappear in the jump's "temporal error
margin" of + 6d6 hours and its "spatial error margin" of arrival
"near" the 100D line. With such error margins a few hours or
a few thousand kilometers more or less seem irrelevant.
 
see fly on the wall for my own use of jump gates...essentially you all are thinking too small. Imagine if the Ancients (here it is not only the Droyne) could utilize the natural gravatic forces of the galaxy to create almost imperceivable small devices which rip open expressways/autobahns of Jumpspace....
 
My thoughts are that if you implement jump on non jump capable ships < 1000 dTons, then you should be wary of creating a game imbalance caused by being able to fling (generally) more powerful SDB's around your sector. Also, if you jump SDB's to systems that don't have a gate, then they effectively become stranded unless you get a carrier capable of picking them up to them, etc. I would think these gates, would effectively change the makeup of a lot of the smaller subsector fleets, and would become major assets to those that owned them, or wanted them. ;)
 
Since even a Tigresses mass does not collapse its own bubble, there is no reason that a 500k+ jump gate (a starship actually) would effect the jump. A ship of even 1M dtons is infinitely small when compared even to a small moon. Even if a micro, micro gravity field were created, I am sure this can be calculated and compensated for with a core/10 computer.

Because it is (kind of by definition) inside the jump bubble. The jump gate isn't, or it'd go with it.

Drop tanks make a jump more difficult because they are mounted outside if the ship that is actually making the jump and can distort the warp bubble.

Not at the point it jumps, they aren't. They are forcibly ejected during the jump process and are lying around in space nearby, not actually inside. High Guard:

Jumping is a delicate procedure, which is greatly complicated by having big empty fuel tanks flying around in close proximity to the jump bubble.

The mass of a jump gate is lower than a planet but it's also a hell of a lot closer; the 100 diameters rule takes into account the size of the object and I'd imagine it's going to be difficult to pass through a gate without being within 100D of it.

The actual density is going to be more than a small moon - granted it's got hollow spaces but it's also going to have a shedload of exotic alloys that make iron look like cotton wool. Even the density of contemporary steels is about 40% more than the average density of the planet earth.

Admittedly, as you note, a mega-dton ship is infinitesimally small compared to a planet, and as such its 100D volume is also infinitesimally small, but you are specifically goint into that region in order to use it.

Not saying it's not possible, but it will be harder than normal and hence I suggested a negative DM on whatever autosystems run the jump calculation to take that into account. If you want to stuff the computer running the calculations full of sufficient expert programmes to counteract this, fine (they're your credits).

One other point, you'd probably want to add some arbitrary percentage to the size of the jump drive.

The jump bubble isn't something you can just 'fly into' or else when drop tanks are caught be the expanding bubble, they'd be brought with you into jumpspace rather than being destroyed. Equally, Grandfather's ship flying into a jump bubble to join yours is one of the "what teh krunk?" moments in Secrets of the Ancients.

There's nothing wrong in theory with creating the jump bubble around the target ship; we haven't seen a jump drive that does that previously but equally have seen nothing that says that's impossible.

However, I'd postulate a bigger, more convoluted jump drive required to create a bubble not centred on the drive for the same reason most unidrectional projectors - lasers, directional antennae, heat pumps etc, are more complex than the equivalent omnidirectional equivalent - light bulb, wire, radiator.



My thoughts are that if you implement jump on non jump capable ships < 1000 dTons, then you should be wary of creating a game imbalance caused by being able to fling (generally) more powerful SDB's around your sector. Also, if you jump SDB's to systems that don't have a gate, then they effectively become stranded unless you get a carrier capable of picking them up to them, etc. I would think these gates, would effectively change the makeup of a lot of the smaller subsector fleets, and would become major assets to those that owned them, or wanted them.

They would indeed, but as noted, it's a one-way trip and (unlike a battle rider carrier) a squadron doesn't all arrive together, so it has its disadvantages as well.
 
Traveller TNE's Fusion, Fire & Steel by GDW covers the creation of ATU Jump gates fairly plausibly, beginning with TL10+ (Jump-1 gates) through TL-16 (Jump-6 gates with early anti-matter power sources), their sizes (for the smount of tonnage travelling through in a single discharge/ jump transit) & Costs, and how much energy it takes to activate them, & what sort of power requirements they would need (solar, fission, fusion, antimatter, etc).

This also gave the ability to think of how often the gate would need between vessel transits to "recharge". 'Bit heavy for the average non-gearhead, number-wise in crunchiness," as one of my female gamers tells me, but its out there and available in reprint at DTRPG for the interested parties.

I can see that basing the size of your JG's will pretty much dictate the size of the non-jump vessels built-- and those larger vessels with Jump drives relegated to the larger JG's. Jump gates in B5, and even wormholes (naturally occurring jump gates, e;g. Translight Game) have keyed locations.

The next thing one must figure out is the transit times--if one is shipping goods, how does the Jump gate affect arrival at the system they are to be sold at? Is it comparable to a Jump-engined merchant ship's? Better than, or greater than?

You can alter the refueling/ berthing times of worlds using MGT's Starports for the queue to use the transit gate to suit your campaign as well.

Secondly: can more goods be shipped by say TL8 Antique System Bulk freighters cheapler than many higher tech jump-engined merchants using the Jump gates in YTU? One can say the transit time for non jump capable vessels in easy, simplistic terms as these:
Jump-1/ TT (Transit Time in Jump/ Hyper Space) = 1 day
Jump-2/ TT = 2 days
Jump-3/ TT = 3 days
Jump-4/ TT = 4 days
Jump-5/ TT = 5 days
Jump-6/ TT = 6 days

This does not include refueling waits, travel time between gates, and waiting for your transition queue to be called up... all of which add to the time it takes to get goods, or persons from system to system.


This allows even the B-class, TL8 worlds to participate in the shipbuilding side of the shipping business of interstellar trade, and can be a valid argument why they never bothered to develop Jump drives themselves, or the expense of an A-class Starport...

There remains the balance of power question of the Jump gates:

Obviously if Jump Gates were so plentiful, and Transit times shorter, NO ONE would hardly bother to build jump-capable ships. As they are inherently expensive (a pair must be built each time), this can be used as a limitation to keep smaller interstellar economic powerhouses in line, and the larger High Population worlds, and populous clusters and Jump-1 mains all in alignment.

Obviously important trade-linked worlds gather revenues from fueling and transit fees from the vessels using their gates. Working out the cost of the transit fee is much like berthing fees.

As in the B5 verse, some JG's maybe jointly funded between allied interstellar powers, others contested over a rich resource system, or strategic astrographical chokepoint. In YTU, you might even allow for ancient Jump gates (TL-17+) still standing, the owners long ago lost, but their technology has been copied and adapted to more primitive power sources (TL-10 thru TL-15).

Hope this has helped!

Liam Devlin
 
I have always found jump gates to be a nice vehicle or mechanism/device for story plots or hooks. In addition, done right – jump gates can be used to limit/restrict the environment or used to do the opposite.
 
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