JoT

[Dave Chase]

Jack of All Trades: The individual is proven capable of handling a wide variety of situations, and is resourceful in finding solutions and remedies. The well-rounded individual (the renaissance man, so to speak) is uncommon in all societies, but is naturally proficient when he or she occurs.
This skill is a general ability which may be applied to nearly any endeavor at the discretion of the referee. The jack of all trades can attempt activity which is not normally possible due to the absence of skills or expertise. Unskilled people have no idea how to even start many projects; jack of all trades can apply this skill to such a project as if he or she has the skill. Jack of all trades can be considered to confer skill level-0 in every other skill (but never level-1).
For example, one of a group of adventurers arrives at an aging crisis while on an expedition into the wilds of an unsettled planet. No one has medical expertise. Jack of all trades can be applied as a substitute for medical skill in this situation; the referee should assume that the person has studied independently at some time or has seen such a crisis previously and knows something of what to do. When using jack of all trades skill, the referee should also consider appropriate personal characteristics (intelligence, education), availability of equipment (drugs, medical instruments), and other factors (weather, shelter, or the specific situation).

So, is (or should it be) JoT truly a skill or lifestyle.
Does there truly exist in the real world someone who has the basic understanding and abilities to make an attempt to try or do any action, knowledge or ability?

Please no flame wars over this question. Just opinions and reason for those opinoins.



To start, I say yes there are some indivdiuals who have made a life out of doing odd jobs, reading lots and have a natural appitude toward any and all skills. But I also say that it should be more of a life style or career than a skill.

Possibly the reason for the skill was to represent those individuals in the initial Traveller but not give them a career of sorts (that is until the career Other came out.)

Dave Chase

 

[rust]

In my view the Jack of All Trades skill was a viable concept when it was
introduced in Classic Traveller, because the skill list of Classic Traveller
was rather short and concentrated on those skills the people from a ra-
ther narrow part of the society could have.

However, in my view the Jack of All Trades skill became implausible the
moment the original skill list was expanded to include more skills, espe-
cially the sciences - while I can imagine a person who has a basic know-
ledge in all of the Classic Traveller skills, I find it absolutely impossible to
imagine a person with a basic knowledge in all sciences and technologies.

The most obvious example would probably be the Language skills. I have
met someone who was fluent in about 20 languages - most impressive.
But I doubt that anyone could know even a single word of all the langua-
ges spoken, or a single letter of all the alphabets written, in a universe of
11,000 inhabited planets.

Whether it is possible to have even a nodding aquaintance with all scien-
ces and technologies ... I very, very much doubt it, because this would
be the equivalent of the entire content of a normal encyclopedia, if not
more.

Therefore I think that the Jack of All Trades skill as it is written makes no
sense. It should at least be restricted to a much narrower field of skills,
or limited to a maximum number of skills the player can choose for his
character - a dozen or so perhaps.

 

[rinku]

It really represents general resourcefulness. It's not REALLY a skill, and the fact that it doesn't use the normal skill rules shows this. You can't even improve it after initial generation. In GURPS terms, it would be an Advantage.

 

[Jacqual]

I think JoT should be broken up to serve different purposes.
Like "JoT: Physical" the character is very adept at physical activities and has an ability to try things not known picks up physical skills faster.

or "JoT: Languages" the character can learn and pick up languages faster then others.

things along those lines where it does indicate more of an aspect of the character instead of an actual skill, all of this would have to be balanced by the Ref of the game of course. But I feel with the vastly expanded skill selection available now in Traveller regardles of which version. That having it broken down into a section of skills instead of every skill would be closer to what would make more game sense.

 

[Dave Chase]

...

However, in my view the Jack of All Trades skill became implausible the
moment the original skill list was expanded to include more skills, espe-
cially the sciences - while I can imagine a person who has a basic know-
ledge in all of the Classic Traveller skills, I find it absolutely impossible to
imagine a person with a basic knowledge in all sciences and technologies.

I guess this depends on what one would consider basic. I do like your example of calling such a person an encyclopedia of knowledge but at the same time, the JoT goes beyond that in it gives the individual the ability to preform such also.

To me basic knowledge of all skills would be similar to someone who went to elementary, middle and high school plus attending college for 2 years and attended a tech college (hands on skills like mechanic) for 2 years.
Plus they have an editic memory (remember everything that they have been told and did.)

The most obvious example would probably be the Language skills. I have
met someone who was fluent in about 20 languages - most impressive.
But I doubt that anyone could know even a single word of all the langua-
ges spoken, or a single letter of all the alphabets written, in a universe of
11,000 inhabited planets.

I would agree that no one could know all languages to that extreme but I also know of individuals who don't even speak a single word of a language who are able to communicate very well with others.

I guess I would clarify subgroups of skills like language, science, knowledge, engineering, etc as the Jack of All Trades. With a larger negative modifier the deeper or more expert the skill attempted by the character with JoT.

Whether it is possible to have even a nodding aquaintance with all scien-
ces and technologies ... I very, very much doubt it, because this would
be the equivalent of the entire content of a normal encyclopedia, if not
more.

I have met one of those. No appitude for doing much but he read it in a book once. (I think there was a movie about someone like that. Quest for the Light Spear or something.)

Therefore I think that the Jack of All Trades skill as it is written makes no
sense. It should at least be restricted to a much narrower field of skills,
or limited to a maximum number of skills the player can choose for his
character - a dozen or so perhaps.

One of the better suggestions that I have heard about JoT in a long time.

Dave Chase

 

[Dave Chase]

Over all it sounds more like JoT is a lifestyle or even a career path (similar to CT's Other).

GURP's advantage buy would be a good example of how it could be played.

Jacqual, :lol:

You wrote and posted some of my thoughts before I did.

Dave Chase

 

[captainjack23]

I like the idea of JoT as a lifestyle, yes I do.

IMTU, I let it allow either a free reroll per game up to the JOT level, for the player, or another player if they can justify it at all; or to use an untrained skill without the -3, per game, up to the JoT level . Seems to work fine -especially when the players blow a big one. It's the MacGyver/Jim Rockford effect.....

 

[AndrewW]

Jacqual, :lol:

You wrote and posted some of my thoughts before I did.

Better get your tin foil hat out, must have been reading your mind. It's those Zhodani.

 

[Emeketos]

JoT

doesn't worry me too much in general its difficult to get to begin with and getting it more than once is improbable to very unlikely. It only shows up in a couple career paths to begin with.

Drifter/Citizen your chance of getting it is
16% once getting 2 levels of it is roughly 2% and near unlikely at all.

At best I would see 1 level of it generally unless someone was really spending most of their training roles on "Personal Development" now dont get me wrong personal development is probably one of the best long term investments in a character. But you would get a skill with lots of good stats and no skills.


me personally as a GM I say let logic explain first if it would be possible. I would rather see less dice rolling and more thinking in my games anyways. I just don't see too may people. Also as a GM there are plenty of other DM's you can add other than just untrained to make JoT from ruining some of the campaign idea's .

I think encouraging task chains is a better technique than JoT anyways. I would make the player explain what they are attempting.

such as a player with no astrogation experience is trying to plot a jump when the navigator is shot or unconscious. They could check the computer logs for previous jump plots for reference (computers routine) for jump plot examples. Another player is applying their skills in Space Science(average) to help fill the variables in a jump calc formula's etc.

 

[CosmicGamer]

Several people have had good posts here.

Dave, where did you find that JoT description? It is nothing like the one on page 55-56 of my Core Rulebook.

Does there truly exist in the real world someone who has the basic understanding and abilities to make an attempt to try or do any action, knowledge or ability?

After studying the question and re reading it several times I'm going to answer no but I'm still not sure I understand it.

To me, this question does not properly mirror what is going on in the game with the JoT skill though.

I believe this is a role playing game. Rolling comes second to role playing.

Take a JoT 'caveman'. Should they be able to attempt to plot a jump, repair a robot? I think not. Does this mean that the JoT rules are faulty? Perhaps the gamers are at fault. I don't think that if the player properly role plays their caveman they would ever be rolling for these tasks. Nor should the GM allow them. How can a person "attempt" to do something that they don't even know or imagine is a possibility? Daves quote on JoT does include

This skill is a general ability which may be applied to nearly any endeavor at the discretion of the referee.

I've always found issue with the huge gap between a person with no skill (-3DM) and something beyond basic understanding/training (Skill level 1 = +1DM). This gap is at least covered by the JoT.

Also you need JoT level 3 before you even have basic understanding, if skill level 0 is basic understanding.

Last thought: perhaps JoT is not a skill or lifestyle. Maybe it is a 'luck' characteristic.

EDIT: Similarities with Emeketos post are purely coincidental. I started reading this entire thread before Emeketos posted and did not refresh before composing my post.

 

[rinku]

The way that MGT runs J-o-T is quite good, IMHO. For most characters, J-o-T just means they're slightly less crap at unskilled tasks... It's worth pointing out that the bonus J-o-T provides is very similar to that of a high characteristic. Joe Lucky with Dex 7 and J-o-T 2 has the same unskilled chance of bringing the cripped shuttle in to land as Mary Ninja with Dex 12 and no J-o-T. But I find no-one has a problem with the latter case.


Is J-o-T 3 really the same as skill level 0 in any case? I think not quite. J-o-T will not qualify you for a job or allow you to care for passengers at Steward 0. It will not let you progress to skill level 1 through study.

 

[Cleon the Mad]

I haven't ready every post, so my reply will reflect that. My apolgies in advance if some or all of my ideas/points have been mentioned already.

My take has always been that JoT is kind of an instinct toward doing things. Imagine someone who let's say knows 3 languages fluently. Most people if they hear a foreign tongue, even if it's somewhat related to one they know fluently might just hear gibberish. Someone with JoT one could at least milk a very basic comprehension out of that, even if their reply would consist of a lot of hand waving and pointing. They might not know let's say mechanical skill, but could get themselves hired on as a machinist apprentice and milk their JoT skill until they actually get a real skill in mechanical or whatever other skill(s) in MGT terms a machinist might have. (as an aside, I'm somewhat describing a IRL relative, his EDU trait in Traveller terms wasn't high per-se, but he could do what I described, and often sounded more educated then he actually was also. I'd give him at least JoT 1 in game terms).

Having said that, one IMO does have to look at it from a case by case basis. I'd assume the Zhodani language has no connection at all to any Terran or Vilani based language other then possibly a few borrowed words. Even JoT 3 probably won't let you comprehend Zhodani if you've had no previous exposure to it, regardless of what else you're fluent in. Likewise, a TL 0 barbarian isn't going to be able to apply JoT to repairing a TL 15 maneuver drive if said barbarian has had no exposure to anything outside of his TL 0 society. BUT, let the first fellow read some books on Zhodani culture and language, and the barbarian fellow wander about a high tech society enough that he can at least comprehend what a maneuver drive does and what all those pretty wires and circuit boards are behind an access panel, and then JoT might be of use to them in such examples.

Or to put it another way, JoT gives one the instinct to comprehend something one has no skill or training in a bit better then normal, as long as it's logical for said person to have any ability TO comprehend it. Og the Barbarian won't be able to fix a starship until he's spent a few weeks or more on one, but yes sooner or later once he does start to comprehend the technology he can start applying his JoT skill toward said technology.

 

[rust]

To me basic knowledge of all skills would be similar to someone who went to elementary, middle and high school plus attending college for 2 years and attended a tech college (hands on skills like mechanic) for 2 years.
Plus they have an editic memory (remember everything that they have been told and did.)

I think that even for such a person it would be quite exceptional to be
able to "read" an EEG printout (a basic task for a neurologist) or to see
whether a shard belonged to a Celtic or a Roman pot (a basic task for
an archaeologist) - there are just too many of these basic, but very spe-
cialised skills to know more than a few dozen of them at best.

 

[Lord High Munchkin]

There were less things to know about in the 1970's.

I view it chiefly as an anachronistic artefact, however I would replace it with either Vacc-suit, Zero-G, Language, or something computerish (as seems situationally reasonable).

 

[alex_greene]

Where did you get the description for J-o-T from? Classic Traveller?

The Mongoose writeup for the skill (p. 55, core rulebook) looks very different:-

Jack of All Trades
The Jack of All Trades skill works differently to other skills. It reduces the unskilled penalty a character receives for not having the appropriate skill by one for every level of Jack of All Trades. For example, if a character does not have the Pilot skill, he suffers a –3 DM to all Pilot checks. If that character has Jack of All Trades 2, then that penalty is reduced by 2 to a –1 DM. With Jack of All Trades 3, a character can totally negate the penalty for being unskilled.
There is no benefit for having Jack of All Trades 0 or Jack of All Trades 4 or more.

It just means that the person has had a broad range of experiences, meaning that he is less incompetent than someone who has no J-o-T skill to draw upon.
As for the benefits of this skill applying to physical tasks, they do not apply to Athletics tasks:-

Athletics
The character is a trained athlete and is physically fi t. The Athletics skill effectively augments a character’s physical characteristics: there is never an untrained penalty for not having the Athletics skill, you just use your Strength, Dexterity or Endurance DM as normal. Likewise, where a situation might call for a Strength, Dexterity or Endurance check you can always use the appropriate Athletics speciality to boost your roll.

J-o-T in the MgT core rulebook does not confer skill-0 to every untrained skill. It only reduces the untrained penalties. The J-o-T user remains an incompetent, and he would have to defer to the greater expertise of someone who actually has the skill being mimicked, even at level-0.

J-o-T thus becomes the skill of last resort. Lacking a competent person, or even a computer with some sort of expert system to talk the character through the process, J-o-T just enables the character to get by with raw talent and his characteristic DMs alone.

If those characteristic DMs are negative, welp ...

 

[rinku]

Well, as I pointed out in my last post, there are already in the rules as written cases where J-o-T 3 does NOT equate to skill 0.

J-o-T gives you a better unskilled roll than otherwise. In any situation where a particular skill *level* (including level 0) is required, it has no effect. Many tasks should be disallowed by any unskilled character, though in a game with a generalised Education characteristic, decades of prior professional experience and easy access to computers, it can be hard to disprove that a character is *totally* ignorant of a thing.

Another example from the rulebook: Vacc Suit 1 is required to use a TL8 vacc suit. J-o-T 3 boy without vacc suit skill still suffers a -4 for all tasks while using the suit, though at least he's not rolling unskilled ones at -7...

 

[locarno24]

Many tasks should be disallowed by any unskilled character, though in a game with a generalised Education characteristic, decades of prior professional experience and easy access to computers, it can be hard to disprove that a character is *totally* ignorant of a thing.

True, but there are plenty of things that it's easy to see you either know or you don't (i.e. skill level 0 required to make the attempt). The often-suggested example of languages, for starters.

If I have Jack of All Trades/4, but no actual language skills in some random planetary dialect, I still cannot speak that language - that requires Language (random planetary dialect)/0.

I will be more able than most to work through the problem of finding out where I should be going through gestures and a map than someone without the skill, but that doesn't let me know what the other guy is actually saying.

 

[Captain Brann]

HI
One of my players has JOT at 2 and I have not found it to be an abuse. In general it only comes into play when he wants to help another skilled player in a task or those odd occasions when no one has the skill at all not even at 0. He still works at -1 and as he has no basic training the task will quite often be difficult at best. rather than easy or normal.

Chris

 

[Cleon the Mad]

Many tasks should be disallowed by any unskilled character, though in a game with a generalised Education characteristic, decades of prior professional experience and easy access to computers, it can be hard to disprove that a character is *totally* ignorant of a thing.

True, but there are plenty of things that it's easy to see you either know or you don't (i.e. skill level 0 required to make the attempt). The often-suggested example of languages, for starters.

If I have Jack of All Trades/4, but no actual language skills in some random planetary dialect, I still cannot speak that language - that requires Language (random planetary dialect)/0.

I will be more able than most to work through the problem of finding out where I should be going through gestures and a map than someone without the skill, but that doesn't let me know what the other guy is actually saying.

Not to nitpick but Mongoose Traveller has JoT 3 as it's highest rating, JoT 4 doesn't exist with MGT.



To switch gears so to speak, maybe one way of looking at JoT skill is the ability to guess right more often then someone lacking the skill, thus the decreased negative DM to untrained skill checks. That does actually again feel like the relative I used as a IRL example of someone I feel had JoT skill. He didn't know anything much past his own education (both formal schooling and self taught), he just could look at something unfamiliar and be more accurate about guessing how it should work. Or if talking to someone whom was using a language he didn't know at all, could come up with a way to communicate a bit faster then someone lacking JoT skill.

 

[rinku]

Not to nitpick but Mongoose Traveller has JoT 3 as it's highest rating, JoT 4 doesn't exist with MGT.

Oh, it's quite possible to get J-o-T 4 or more... though a *kind* Referee will let a player who rolls their 4th one reroll.

It just has no extra game effect over J-o-T 3, as the skill description mentions on p.55.