Jedi vs Kai

A

Anonymous

Guest
Heh, I know I know. :p But just for the heck of it...

I would say in melee combat the jedi would own...what with the lightsaber and all. (increased damage at high levels, battlemind, etc etc).

However, the kai abilitites seem to be more broad, and useful, than the force abilities of a jedi. Oh and I wonder how much defense a jedi would have against psychic attacks. More than most yes, but would it be enough?

oooh, and how about: Sith vs Kai (force lightning and all that). ;)
 

adgramaine

Mongoose
No contest - a Jedi or a Sith would more than likely own a Kai Lord. Now, if they were at higher levels, and the Kai had 4th Tier Nexus, then they might have a fighting chance... but on the whole I'd best my last Nobles on the Force masters :)
 

SableWyvern

Mongoose
I'm with Adgramaine. The Kai are tough, but they're still very human. A powerful jedi is almost more than mortal.

Looking at the results of what each does, there isn't a lot of difference; but examining the philosophies behind each, you see that the Jedi's power draws on and is one with the very quintessence of existence. A Kai can't match that.

By way of direct comparison in this context, the Kai owe their power to the moderate, indirect intervention of a god. The Force, on the other hand supersedes any god, and would in fact define the paramaters under which a god could exist in the first place.
 
A

Anonymous

Guest
does anybody else think it was incredibly retarded that Lucas EXPLAINED the force in Episode 1?!!! Thats where he killed star wars. That moment.

The force was supposed to be a mysterious almost magical force! Not some simple biological thing.

Sigh...
 

taylor

Mongoose
Using a kai weapon (assuming a kai weapon can withstand being hit by a lightsabre), a kai grand master would take a jedi out no problem. Kai ray + grand weaponmastery + divination = dead jedi.

As for the force being superior to any god by definition, a judeo-christian god is omnipotent, so can't really be second best to anything. Not that that has anything to do with topic. :)

LW is probably amongst the hardest fictional human characters ever written. I mean come on, Naar, the manisfestation of everything evil, doesn't show up when he is around!

But the real reason, is that lone wolf, at least when i play the gamebooks, doesn't fight using b grade wushu like most jedi seem to. ;) :D
 

SableWyvern

Mongoose
Sun Wolf: I don't think explaining it was as big a problem as the form the explanation took. Point in case, the Force _was_ explained in New Hope and Empire -- just not scientifically. Energy force, surrounds us, binds the galaxy together and all that. :)
 
A

Anonymous

Guest
Basically, thats what i meant. Explaining it thru science was really dumb. It was so much more amazing with a spiritual explanation.

sunwolf
 

lastbesthope

Mongoose
Personally, my money would be on Father McGruder from the Peter Jackson movie "BrainDead"

His best line when taking on the zombies, "I kick arse for The Lord!"

LBH
 
A

Anonymous

Guest
taylor said:
Using a kai weapon (assuming a kai weapon can withstand being hit by a lightsabre), a kai grand master would take a jedi out no problem. Kai ray + grand weaponmastery + divination = dead jedi.
Actually, if you look at at a lv 10 Jedi and a lv 10 Kai Lord, the power differences are vast. By lv 10, the Jedi (a Guardian specifically) can quite possibly have a very nasty point spread over force powers, and can access powers that the Kai cannot ever hope to keep up with (Force Speed, etc). Also, every Jedi has a Lightsaber, and every Kai does NOT have the Sommerswerd. Also, Since Jedi Force Powers TECHNICALLY are psychic powers, they count as Psychically active and thusly are more than likely immune or highly resistant to the Kai's Mind Blast abilitites. The Jedi's powers are also simply more wide reaching.... And what do you mean by "Kai Weapon"? Is there some bit of Kai Lore I am missing from the New Order Books? Or are you simply referring to the Sommerswerd? (if the later is the case, please refer to my point above about the number of Sommerswerds there are versus the number of Lightsabers....)

taylor said:
As for the force being superior to any god by definition, a judeo-christian god is omnipotent, so can't really be second best to anything. Not that that has anything to do with topic. :)
The gods of Magnamund are not even partially omnipotent. In the novels (and I realize not every one has read them), Ishir might remember pretty much everything that has happened during her past (with Alyss being a little grey spot in that memory), she could not forsee what was to come. If I may quote from Eclipse of the Kai
The Gods were amazed. Never before had they imagined..."
need I continue?
taylor said:
LW is probably amongst the hardest fictional human characters ever written. I mean come on, Naar, the manisfestation of everything evil, doesn't show up when he is around!
Just because the Kai are cooler doesn't mean squat. And Naar sends his manifestations to deal with the Kai. Why would a god intervene on a human's behalf? The gods in Magnamund don't care about mortals enough to even think about intervening....
taylor said:
But the real reason, is that lone wolf, at least when i play the gamebooks, doesn't fight using b grade wushu like most jedi seem to. ;) :D
I agree - the Kai are simply much cooler than the Jedi/Sith. But I hate to say it, if you compare d20 stats, the Jedi will win most every time.... I don't mean to come across spiteful or anything, I'm just trying to be as realistic within the confines of printed d20 rules as possible... and a d20 Jedi kicks way too much arse when compared to Kai....
 

taylor

Mongoose
Anonymous said:
taylor said:
Using a kai weapon (assuming a kai weapon can withstand being hit by a lightsabre), a kai grand master would take a jedi out no problem. Kai ray + grand weaponmastery + divination = dead jedi.
Actually, if you look at at a lv 10 Jedi and a lv 10 Kai Lord, the power differences are vast. By lv 10, the Jedi (a Guardian specifically) can quite possibly have a very nasty point spread over force powers, and can access powers that the Kai cannot ever hope to keep up with (Force Speed, etc). Also, every Jedi has a Lightsaber, and every Kai does NOT have the Sommerswerd. Also, Since Jedi Force Powers TECHNICALLY are psychic powers, they count as Psychically active and thusly are more than likely immune or highly resistant to the Kai's Mind Blast abilitites. The Jedi's powers are also simply more wide reaching.... And what do you mean by "Kai Weapon"? Is there some bit of Kai Lore I am missing from the New Order Books? Or are you simply referring to the Sommerswerd? (if the later is the case, please refer to my point above about the number of Sommerswerds there are versus the number of Lightsabers....)

In the NO series, Lone Wolf's new found supreme discipline Kai Weaponcraft allows him to create Kai Weapons, which give +5CS plus a bonus against a particular type of enemy depending on which weapon you choose.

taylor said:
As for the force being superior to any god by definition, a judeo-christian god is omnipotent, so can't really be second best to anything. Not that that has anything to do with topic. :)
The gods of Magnamund are not even partially omnipotent. In the novels (and I realize not every one has read them), Ishir might remember pretty much everything that has happened during her past (with Alyss being a little grey spot in that memory), she could not forsee what was to come. If I may quote from Eclipse of the Kai
The Gods were amazed. Never before had they imagined..."
need I continue?[/quote]
I personally don't consider the novels to be part of the lone wolf universe myself. IMHO, they are almost a vehicle for Alyss and Quinifer.

taylor said:
LW is probably amongst the hardest fictional human characters ever written. I mean come on, Naar, the manisfestation of everything evil, doesn't show up when he is around!
Just because the Kai are cooler doesn't mean squat. And Naar sends his manifestations to deal with the Kai. Why would a god intervene on a human's behalf? The gods in Magnamund don't care about mortals enough to even think about intervening....[/quote]
That's not what I meant. Naar is too scared to show up in his own throne room when Lone Wolf goes to free Alyss and the Moonstone.

taylor said:
But the real reason, is that lone wolf, at least when i play the gamebooks, doesn't fight using b grade wushu like most jedi seem to. ;) :D
I agree - the Kai are simply much cooler than the Jedi/Sith. But I hate to say it, if you compare d20 stats, the Jedi will win most every time.... I don't mean to come across spiteful or anything, I'm just trying to be as realistic within the confines of printed d20 rules as possible... and a d20 Jedi kicks way too much arse when compared to Kai....[/quote]
Well, I know almost nothing about D20. I'm just talking IMO. Lone Wolf with the Sommerswerd versus Luke Skywalker or Darth Maul or whoever should result in a dead jedi, IMO of course. :D
 

adgramaine

Mongoose
Not to beat the flames of debate here, but a +5 CS weapon does not stand up to a lightsabre that can sunder it pretty much instantly. I have to agree with "Guest" in most of the arguements of the Jedi vs Kai, as I was going to say pretty much the same things, but I don't feel like being called a parrot right now....
 

redlaco

Mongoose
You're right, I am the parrot usually! :lol: See below for another shining example :

Seriously - well as much as one can be when he's about to compare the combat skills of a jedi and a Kai lord - I'd have to agree that the typical jedi would make short work of a typical Kai Lord or even Lone Wolf himself unless Kai himself steps in to help the poor fellow. :)
 
A

Anonymous

Guest
redlaco said:
You're right, I am the parrot usually! :lol: See below for another shining example :

Seriously - well as much as one can be when he's about to compare the combat skills of a jedi and a Kai lord - I'd have to agree that the typical jedi would make short work of a typical Kai Lord or even Lone Wolf himself unless Kai himself steps in to help the poor fellow. :)
lol, whiney little Luke or Anakin vs Lone Wolf? No way I can see him getting beaten by these guys. At the lower levels, sure jedi have a supreme technological advantage, at the grandmaster level the sheer amount of things a kai can bring to the table start to even it up, and by supreme master level, the kai is a battle wizard as well as a psychic monster and a supernatural fighter.

As for the lightsabre issue, I'm pretty sure the SS could stand up to one, and I think the Kai weapons probably could too.
 

Silent Wolf

Mongoose
Just out of curiosity, can anyone point to a time in the actual gamebooks themselves, where a mystic weapon is broken under something other then extraordinary circumstances?

My reason for asking is I typically have always considered any decent mystic weapon, and certainly anything of legendary or artifact level, unbreakable. Now working off of the soucre material only, that is the Star Wars movies and the Lone Wolf Gamebooks, and taking the characters at the height of they're powers. I would have to say that a Kai Grandmaster with an unbreakable magical weapon would cleave a jedi in half.

A jedi's training, as presented in the movies, simply doesn't compare to the training a Kai recieves IMHO. The force/discipline psi powers, again as presented in the movies and game books, largely counter one another. Though a grandmaster with magical spells just adds in a whole new world of hurt.

Jedi also count a great deal on the ability of a lightsaber to cleave through virtually anything in battle. In any fight with an opponent whom wields another lightsaber, something immune to the cleave through effect, the battle is determined through pure skill. I feel the weapon skill of a Kai Lord of comperable time training to the jedi is superior. Mind you, it is easy to think of a Jedi as better, because we can see the amazing moves and such. But thats hardly to say that a Kai Lord can't fight the same way, we've just never seen it, only read it. Maybe we'll just have to wait for Lone Wolf the Movie to finally judge ;)
 

psyclonejack

Mongoose
Well So far, just by reading the other posts, the only reason people think the JEDI or SITH would win is due to the Lightsabers. The topic wasn't, technology vs Magic it was Jedi vs Kai.

So, take away the sommerswerd and the lightsabers. Give them both a Boken (wooden sword). Now then who would win?

IMHO, it would be a luck issue. Who won initiative, who rolled better. The powers, in my mind would balance. Of course depending on the arena, the clutter in the arena, the terrain of the arena, it would be an intresting battle. If I had to put a bet on the table, I would go with the Kai lord. Simply because I personally enjoy seeing Jedi die.

PsyJack
 

adgramaine

Mongoose
Point in Fact:
A First Level Jedi Guardian has access to the following Force Skills:
Force Lightining (Reflex Save or 3d8 Energy Damage)
Force Strike (Reflex Save of 3d4 physical damage)
Force Grip (Fort Save or 3d6 physical damage)
Enhance Ability (increase Str or Dex by 2-8 points)

A First Level Kai Lord can have either Hunting or Weaponskill, which quite frankly does not amount to much.

I just checked the numbers from both books, and it's pretty close. The Jedi have slightly better saves, better Attack Bonus (and more attacks per round), better AC (or Defense as they call it), and the ace in the whole - they can personalize their power level. Where Kai end up with pretty similiar abilities, a 1st level Jedi could simply put all their skill points in Force Lightining and eat that Kai for breakfast before they can close the distance....

But alas, we might be beating a dead horse. So here is what I propose: We shall have a bit of a Last Man Standing (whaddya say?)

Since I am the instigator and a highly vocal individual for the Jedi, I shall construct a Level 3 Jedi, to be compaired with a Level 3 Kai Lord. To put aside all doubt of cheating, we shall assume MAXIMUM STATS for both parties. We'll post our characters and let one of our more vocal and expert-ish board members make the final call. (Personally, I'd vote for Paido to do this as he has proven to be very studious and careful when cross-compairing facts. But hey, that's just my opinion)

So, do we have any takers on this? I'd love to be proven wrong. I mean, the Kai ARE so much cooler.... :twisted:
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Come On! Bet Me! You KNOW you wanna.....
 

taylor

Mongoose
Well, since I've never played an RPG in my life I can't do it. I'm going off hazy logic and personal opinion, not how the game mechanics compare. :)

I'd say Naar is vastly more powerful than any jedi ever, yet he was scared of LW.
 

Silent Wolf

Mongoose
I'd be ammused at the outcome, but despite how well the character class of Kai Lord has been rendered in the RPG, it still was composed with an eye for balance to other classes and such in the book. Much the same as I would hope the Jedi were in they're D20 title.

I still prefer personally analyzing it from the POV of the source material, which didn't have the worry of seeking balance that a RPG would inherently have. I might be willing to conceed that a jedi starts more powerful then a Kai Lord, with enough evidence anyway. Though I personally feel Lonewolf by the end of Flight From he Dark would take Luke, as an example, handily as he was at the end of A New Hope. Particularly stripped of gear as was suggested in an earlier post and both left to just raw skill. Likewise, as I said before. Lonewolf circa book 20, vs anything I've seen to date in Star Wars as far as Jedi go would be something of a slaughter. He was fighting demon lords and godly powerful beings by that point after all.
 

SableWyvern

Mongoose
Lone Wolf after a lifetime of training, compared to Luke after a few days sparring with a floating ball? Of course Lone Wolf wins. :p
 

Paido

Mongoose
Jedi versus Kai? :shock: Wouldn't that go like this:

  • Jedi and Kai enter the same area; both draw their weapons and try to get a feel for their unexpected opponent.

    Assorted Darklords and Sith, on the grandstand: All too easy. *malevolent chuckle* All too easy.

    Jedi senses the inherent goodness of the Kai and deactivates his lightsaber.

    Jedi: I will not fight against you, brother. Search your feelings ... Do you really want to strike me down?

    (Aside: Oh, keep quiet there, you Jedi haters, I'm talking to him! :wink:)

    Kai: casts Brotherhood spell "Detect Evil" Uh ... no ... Care for a Bor-brew instead?

    Assorted Darklords and Sith, on the grandstand: Damn! :D

Oh, well, here are my thoughts on the various comments posted on the thread ... Careful, though, that will be one hell of a monster post!


adgramaine said:
So, do we have any takers on this? I'd love to be proven wrong. I mean, the Kai ARE so much cooler.... :twisted:
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Come On! Bet Me! You KNOW you wanna.....
Yes, make some teensy bets, lose big! (As Vilmarh Grahrk uses to say ...) :wink:


adgramaine said:
Since I am the instigator and a highly vocal individual for the Jedi, I shall construct a Level 3 Jedi, to be compaired with a Level 3 Kai Lord. [...] (Personally, I'd vote for Paido to do this as he has proven to be very studious and careful when cross-compairing facts. But hey, that's just my opinion)
Err ... thanks for the vote of confidence there, Adgramaine ... I have to admit, though, I'm not exactly well versed in rule matters, especially D20 rules ... :oops:

Somehow that idea reminds me of a thread on the forum of the German Lord of the Rings publisher, where a guy (of the rule-lawyer variety) was intent on proving that an optimized low-level warrior can take on a Balrog and win - they fought out a demonstration duel - he, another one "playing" the Balrog, and a third forum member as "game master". Everyone posted his actions in order of initiative, and the "game master" rolled the dice. (The warrior was toast after the first round ... :twisted:)


Of course, Silent Wolf had a very good point about this:

Silent Wolf said:
[...] composed with an eye for balance to other classes and such in the book.
What Xex aimed for was probably not a comparison of the rpg character classes. :)


Silent Wolf said:
Likewise, as I said before. Lonewolf circa book 20, vs anything I've seen to date in Star Wars as far as Jedi go would be something of a slaughter. He was fighting demon lords and godly powerful beings by that point after all.
Then just take a Jedi and give him twenty gamebook's worth of experience and "adventure exposure" ... :twisted:

BTW, as far as I know, the outrageous power(s) of the demon lords and godly powerful beings Lone Wolf fought in the later Grand Master books seemed to manifest as nothing more than very high combat stats and a powerful mental attack (maybe an elemental attack form as well). Not exactly what I would expect from such a being ...

I, at least, wouldn't sign a "work for Naar and become a godlike demon lord! Full list of benefits: A hefty raise for CS and EP, a Dementia-Surge, a Toxic Breath of Mint Resistance, and a horde of fanatical followers. (Who will summon you to get beat up by an upstart Kai lord every once in a while.)


taylor said:
Naar is too scared to show up in his own throne room when Lone Wolf goes to free Alyss and the Moonstone.
Maybe there was a good show on TV? :wink:

No, seriously (well, as far as possible): Looking at what "mere" power gods get in the gamebooks, I wouldn't show up there, too, if I were Naar. But then, I'd stay away as well if a Jedi with that amount of experience dropped by for tea ...


Anonymous said:
[...] at the grandmaster level the sheer amount of things a kai can bring to the table start to even it up, and by supreme master level, the kai is a battle wizard as well as a psychic monster and a supernatural fighter.
Let's compare that to a Jedi of the same amount of experience and training (not thoroughly, just a few examples for each):

* battle wizard: Telekinesis, Saber Throw, Force Choke, Force Lightning - check.

* psychic monster: No real mental attack, but abilities of mind control, confusion, and mental defense as well - check.

* supernatural fighter: Force-enhanced "attributes", Force Speed, Force Jumps, sense opponent's intents - check.

Don't really see much of a difference ... Many similar abilities, and each has a few abilities the other doesn't have. As Silent Wolf noted, the powers seem to largely counter one another. :D


Silent Wolf said:
Just out of curiosity, can anyone point to a time in the actual gamebooks themselves, where a mystic weapon is broken under something other then extraordinary circumstances?
Not even the Sommerswerd is indestructible; the acid secreted by Dakomyd larvae, for example, seems to be able to destroy the Sommerswerd. Just have a look at The Kingdoms of Terror, paragraph 4 (or better, start at 318)! Even the Lone Wolf Club Newsletter #6 confirms that:
  • In the sewers beneath Tekaro I lost my weapon to the grasp of a certain killer organism—that weapon was the Sommerswerd! Surely this is a major disaster for both Lone Wolf and Sommerlund?
    [name of reader]

    Strictly speaking, the Sommerswerd is a Special Item—not a Weapon. When facing the organism (ref. 4) you should erase a Weapon from your Action Chart. If you do not possess a Weapon, only then do you lose the Sommerswerd.
So if I had just the Sommerswerd for defense against a lightsaber, I wouldn't dare to commence battle ... 1. Poor Sommerswerd, 2. Poor me. :?

Even worse with the weapons Lone Wolf forged for the New Order Grand Masters ...


Silent Wolf said:
Jedi also count a great deal on the ability of a lightsaber to cleave through virtually anything in battle. In any fight with an opponent whom wields another lightsaber, something immune to the cleave through effect, the battle is determined through pure skill. I feel the weapon skill of a Kai Lord of comperable time training to the jedi is superior.
As far as pure combat prowess goes, it probably depends on the era from which the Jedi hails. The Jedi of the prequels era rarely concentrated on duel training, as they had no reason (any longer) to expect that kind of combat. They were concentrating more on blaster deflection. A Kai lord had to expect a lot more swordplay (and with opponents who wouldn't loose their weapons after the first parry, to boot), so they were probably the better trained melee combatants. Going back to the times where the Sith were numerous, I'd be less sure about that ...


Sum total, as far as I'm concerned: I'd probably bet on the Jedi and would expect a damn exciting duel, as long as both have comparable weapons (maybe coat the Kai lords weapon with cortosis, even though I'm not sure I care for that stuff ...) and training/experience.

Though a Dark Jedi might shorten that duel by telekinetically lifting the poor Kai into the air and either choking him to death or crushing his heart or draining his very life essence or ... :twisted:


Paido


P.S.: Sunwolf, I agree with you; that midi-chlorian idea was a complete and utter &%#§!!! :evil: Nasty, fat midi-chlorians, my preciousss!! *gollum!* *gollum!* *gollum!* ... erm ... I'm just glad that they seem to have noticed that themselves - cannot remember any reference to them in episode II ...
 
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