Is stealth too powerful?

[zulu01]

I am sure there have been many threads before this one on this topic. But as new player, with just a few games under my belt, I feel forced to ask the question - dont you feel stealth is way too powerful?

The way stealth works now not only nerfs your fire against the ship you were shooting at, but ends thats ship's turn of shooting at any target. I have had my entire fleet basically line up to fire and get nothing - didn't get to roll a dice in shooting. VERY frustrating.

For those of you with the new rule books (i CAN'T wait for mine to come) is stealth at all downplayed in second edition?

 

[captainsmirk]

There are many more ways of reducing stealth in the new edition (along with ways to try and bump it up).

The idea is to make it a more tactical issue rather than just a win/lose dice roll. I am unsure exactly what the modifiers are but I know it is now possible to mostly negate Stealth on most Minbari ships if you work hard enough.


Nick

 

[Da Boss]

Hmm its a tough question - it is when you roll1's and 2's at point blamk range and can't hit anything (been there!)- but then if you roll nothing but 5's and 6's its the opposite (also been there!)

fighters ignore it of course but now with Minbari advanced antifighter its not as useful - plus you can't use them to help reduce the stealth. On the other hand you can now get a bonus if someone already spotted you. Ircoically the best anti-stealth ship is the Leshath - (I don't think i should be able to remove the stealth of the First Ones.............but it can) Minbari vs Minbari battle will be nasty!

Minbari always seem to win big or be slaughted on their stealth and its not going to change in 2nd Ed.

 

[Greg Smith]

There are multiple ways to improve your chances against the Minbari.

Split fire. If your ship is firing against two stealthy targets, it has two chances to beat stealth.

Close range. With the rules in Armageddon (and even before then) getting close to a staelthy target is important.

Scouts. This is obvious. Use them to reduce the stealth of the target that is going to be hit by the most guns. Keep you scouts well away from the Minbari's guns if you can - behind asteroids or the like.

Fighters. Scanners to Full! is important, use 2-3 fighters to achieve it. Keep the supporting fighters outside of 4" of the target ship, so they can't be hit by those minibeams with anti-fighter. The effect lasts even when the fighter dies.

Fighters. Fighters swarms surrounding a single Minbai ship are nasty - if they get close enough they will ignore stealth. 6 Skyserpents will ruin a Leshath's day. Keep you fighters in the same arc as the Minbari are going to use to fire on your ships - force him to chose between firing his minibeams at your fighters or your ships.

Beating a stealth heavy fleet can be tricky, but it can be done.

----
In 2e, Stealth is very similar. Although there is an additional way to get through Stealth. But in return, the Minbari have a scout buster.

 

[Burger]

The problem with stealth is not that it is too powerful. At first it can seem that way, but as you become experienced at playing the game, you learn how to turn the odds into your favour. Stealth is actually (IMO) pretty balanced.

The problem with stealth, is that it is "all or nothing". You either pass the rolls and cause massive damage, or you fail the rolls and don't even get to roll your dice. It is not a fun rule.

 

[lastbesthope]

The way stealth works now not only nerfs your fire against the ship you were shooting at, but ends thats ship's turn of shooting at any target.

I don't think it des, in either version of the rules, if you fail a stealth check yyou only lose all the firepower directed at that ship, any weapons firing at another ship are still available, pending any stealth checks on their declared targets.

LBH

 

[WereRogue]

I disagree w/ Da Boss' last comment.

I really think they've made Stealth a lot more player manageable in 2e. Now, you get a bonus if one of the ships in your fleet has already spotted it, in addition to the bonus a friendly scout provides by painting it, and the bonus for being in close range. That's a -3 to the stealth score right there. It might not prevent the awkward 1 or 2 that may ocassionally crop up, but will certainly alleviate a lot of the pain.

A new tactic to consider is targeting a Stealth ship with weapons that are going to be out of range, anyway. If they're not going to fire at anything, you still get a roll to break that Stealth which could help your big boys later on.

Also, like Da Boss pointed out, Fighters will ignore it, now, provided they can survive the AAF screen the Minbari will be throwing out.

The key to fighting Minbari (or any fleet w/ a lot of Stealth on the table) is to take several Scout ships and close the range quickly. I've found (in 1e, at least) that Minbari ships seem to be pretty weak once you penetrate their stealth. That works at 1e or 2e, too. And, in 2e, Scout ranges got longer, too.

However, one of your statements is incorrect. You nominate targets in each fire arc. But if you fail to break the stealth of the Sharlin in your Front Arc, you still get to fire at the Tenashi in your Starboard arc (or, at least, you get to try to break it's stealth and fire at it). Losing a stealth roll against one target does not prevent you from firing at other targets, just that one.

Hope this helps.

-Ken

 

[Burger]

A new tactic to consider is targeting a Stealth ship with weapons that are going to be out of range, anyway. If they're not going to fire at anything, you still get a roll to break that Stealth which could help your big boys later on.

Yep, certainly a valid tactic. The downside of course is that you lose initiative in the firing phase... by the time your big guns get to fire, they might already be crippled...

 

[lastbesthope]

A new tactic to consider is targeting a Stealth ship with weapons that are going to be out of range, anyway. If they're not going to fire at anything, you still get a roll to break that Stealth which could help your big boys later on.

Yep, certainly a valid tactic. The downside of course is that you lose initiative in the firing phase... by the time your big guns get to fire, they might already be crippled...

Not sure it is valid, the section on Eligible Targets states that the targets must be within arc and range to be successfully attacked, and Stealth states once an attack is declared you make the stealth roll. If the attack is invalid then you shouldn't get to make the stealth roll.

LBH

 

[Locutus9956]

However, one of your statements is incorrect. You nominate targets in each fire arc. But if you fail to break the stealth of the Sharlin in your Front Arc, you still get to fire at the Tenashi in your Starboard arc (or, at least, you get to try to break it's stealth and fire at it). Losing a stealth roll against one target does not prevent you from firing at other targets, just that one.

-Ken

It does however mean that you cant fire at that OTHER sharlin in the forward arc the point is that if you fire your heavy lasers at a stealth protected target you cant pick a different target for that weapon if you fail the stealth roll.

The key note is to spread your fire around as much as possible giving you more chances to break stealth. Ships with good all round firepower like Nova's and Chronos are great for this.

 

[WereRogue]

A new tactic to consider is targeting a Stealth ship with weapons that are going to be out of range, anyway. If they're not going to fire at anything, you still get a roll to break that Stealth which could help your big boys later on.

Yep, certainly a valid tactic. The downside of course is that you lose initiative in the firing phase... by the time your big guns get to fire, they might already be crippled...

Not sure it is valid, the section on Eligible Targets states that the targets must be within arc and range to be successfully attacked, and Stealth states once an attack is declared you make the stealth roll. If the attack is invalid then you shouldn't get to make the stealth roll.

LBH

Well, I wasn't sure one way or the other. I came up with the tactic as I was writing the post.

-Ken

 

[Lorcan Nagle]

another hting to bear in mind is that some new crits remove random traits. This includes stealth...

 

[Burger]

Not sure it is valid, the section on Eligible Targets states that the targets must be within arc and range to be successfully attacked, and Stealth states once an attack is declared you make the stealth roll. If the attack is invalid then you shouldn't get to make the stealth roll.

Oh yea, reading the rules, it is invalid. I was thinking another crazy tactic I once rulesmastered and used (declaring a ship to "fire" that has no targets).

 

[Davesaint]

There are multiple ways to improve your chances against the Minbari.

Split fire. If your ship is firing against two stealthy targets, it has two chances to beat stealth.

Close range. With the rules in Armageddon (and even before then) getting close to a staelthy target is important.

Scouts. This is obvious. Use them to reduce the stealth of the target that is going to be hit by the most guns. Keep you scouts well away from the Minbari's guns if you can - behind asteroids or the like.

Fighters. Scanners to Full! is important, use 2-3 fighters to achieve it. Keep the supporting fighters outside of 4" of the target ship, so they can't be hit by those minibeams with anti-fighter. The effect lasts even when the fighter dies.

Fighters. Fighters swarms surrounding a single Minbai ship are nasty - if they get close enough they will ignore stealth. 6 Skyserpents will ruin a Leshath's day. Keep you fighters in the same arc as the Minbari are going to use to fire on your ships - force him to chose between firing his minibeams at your fighters or your ships.

Beating a stealth heavy fleet can be tricky, but it can be done.

----
In 2e, Stealth is very similar. Although there is an additional way to get through Stealth. But in return, the Minbari have a scout buster.

Except that they got rid of the Scanners to Full SA for the fighters in 2nd Ed and raised the stealth value of almost all of the Minbari ships. How does this make it easier to see them. For example, the Tinashi is now Stealth 5+. Scout reduces it to 4+ or 50-50 to hit it with the first ship. Are you going to take that 50-50 shot with your boresighted Omega? Probibly not. Therefore you are going to shoot at it with a ship with lower amounts of firepower first allowing the Minbari to gut your heavy hitters first. The reduction of stealth for a sucessful breaking of the stealth roll by another ship reduces it to 3+. If you are less than range 8 it drops to 2+, which of course means that you can still fail 16% of the time when you are at point blank range. Now in 2nd Ed, at least with what I have on it, slow loading weapons do not count as being fired if they fail the stealth check, assuming you live through your effort. I don't know if this is a good thing yet or not. We have run the Minbari a couple of times, and stealth is still a big deal. If you cant make a stealth roll, the game is no fun at all.


Dave

 

[katadder]

one other thing in the 2e stealth rules to get the +1 bonus from another ship you have to make a successful attack with that ship 1st, not just break stealth.

 

[WereRogue]

Except that they got rid of the Scanners to Full SA for the fighters in 2nd Ed and raised the stealth value of almost all of the Minbari ships. How does this make it easier to see them. For example, the Tinashi is now Stealth 5+. Scout reduces it to 4+ or 50-50 to hit it with the first ship. Are you going to take that 50-50 shot with your boresighted Omega? Probibly not. Therefore you are going to shoot at it with a ship with lower amounts of firepower first allowing the Minbari to gut your heavy hitters first. The reduction of stealth for a sucessful breaking of the stealth roll by another ship reduces it to 3+. If you are less than range 8 it drops to 2+, which of course means that you can still fail 16% of the time when you are at point blank range. Now in 2nd Ed, at least with what I have on it, slow loading weapons do not count as being fired if they fail the stealth check, assuming you live through your effort. I don't know if this is a good thing yet or not. We have run the Minbari a couple of times, and stealth is still a big deal. If you cant make a stealth roll, the game is no fun at all.


Dave

And having just 1 scout ship on the table, and in range, gives you a good chance to lower that to 1+.

-Ken

 

[Burger]

Are you going to take that 50-50 shot with your boresighted Omega? Probibly not. Therefore you are going to shoot at it with a ship with lower amounts of firepower first allowing the Minbari to gut your heavy hitters first.

Or allow Minbari to kill off your scouts, putting you back to 50-50 again.....

 

[katadder]

they raised stealth on some minbari ships but they are also more fragile now being crippled easier than 1e.

 

[WereRogue]

they raised stealth on some minbari ships but they are also more fragile now being crippled easier than 1e.

Yeah, the Sharlin is crazy! It's crippled at only 2/3 damage!

-Ken

 

[Da Boss]

one other thing in the 2e stealth rules to get the +1 bonus from another ship you have to make a successful attack with that ship 1st, not just break stealth.

Also I think the ship has to survive ?

I still think Stealth will be much as in 1st ed just with a few more variables that balance up to make it about the same.