Is it just me, or has this forum stalled?

[librarycharlie]

...I can think of very few RPG lines that haven't gone down this road, and have consistently had good supplements. Pendragon springs to mind, but the supplements for that were few and far between anyway.

This is the chief problem, I think, with the sorcery system as written - the spells can just about all be "referenced" from Howard's stories. But we must surely assume that sorcerers were capable of feats that were never described in any Conan story? I don't think it would have hurt to include extra "Hyborian style" magic that is in keeping with the setting, while never actually being "cast" by any of the sorcerers in Howard's stories.

Pendragon! I hadn't even thought of that line in a decade or so, but the adventures we had! I heartily agree.

And your second point here is a better illustration, I think, of the point I tried feebly to make, that overadherence to Howard seems to have narrowed the creative perspective during some of the RPG creation process. I agree wholeheartedly that there have to be things sorcerers can do that Howard didn't describe, just based on the broad list of things he does. And yet in the RPG, we rarely see anything beyond that which is seen, or described, in Howard's stories. The exception to this are some of the amazing spells in the Pirate Isles books, which have both more reasonable requirements (not a +7 MAB, for example) and broader applications than things in the core rulebook.

The introductory spell, for example, knot wind, was used to great effect several times in the last campaign (particularly on a ship, knocking people off, for example).

Compare this to Dance of the Cobras, which requires: entrance (hypnotism), telekinesis, conjuring (prereq for telek), 5 ranks in slight of hand (not a class skill, prer. for telek), 8 ranks in perform instrument, four cobras, 400sp worth of jars, the feat Ritual Sacrifice, and the caster must worship Hanuman, have 5 power points, and have enough Handle Animal skill to safely wrangle 4 snakes into jars.

Who was this spell for?

The spell appears in the Howard stories, that's true. But how much of a pain in the butt is it to try to wedge this spell into your actual game in the RPG? You have to design an entire character around the prereqs for one spell! And look on the next page. There's Dread Serpent, which outright kills your opponent, has only entrance and MAB+4 prereqs, and costs only 3 power points. Who in their right mind makes a character just to use Dance of the Cobras?

And from an in-game perspective, if you are a follower of Hanuman with the hypnotism school anyway, how dumb do you have to be to try to kill your opponent with a bunch of expensive jars containing hard-to-wrangle snakes, as opposed to just throwing a cheap staff at him?

It seems like the author, at that point by providing the Dance of Cobras, was more interested in squeezing every word of Howard's into the RPG than he was in providing something useable to the game's players. Of course, a GM can create an NPC for the explicit purpose of casting this spell, but even a GM should ask himself why the caster doesn't just hurl a couple of Dread Serpents instead...

This reminds me of a phrase I once heard comparing language translations to mistresses. The fairest ones are most often false. The ugliest ones are most often the most faithful.

I feel that in some places (Dance of the Cobras, for example) the game has proved too faithful to Howard at the expense of playability. I suspect that the multitudinous sorcery complaints and suggestions for alternate systems across this forum are precisely due to this Howard-centered, rather than player-centered approach to magics.

 

[Style]

Of course, a GM can create an NPC for the explicit purpose of casting this spell, but even a GM should ask himself why the caster doesn't just hurl a couple of Dread Serpents instead...

This reminds me of a phrase I once heard comparing language translations to mistresses. The fairest ones are most often false. The ugliest ones are most often the most faithful.

I feel that in some places (Dance of the Cobras, for example) the game has proved too faithful to Howard at the expense of playability. I suspect that the multitudinous sorcery complaints and suggestions for alternate systems across this forum are precisely due to this Howard-centered, rather than player-centered approach to magics.

This was well said.

And Mongoose Steele, I agree with what you're saying as well. You have provided the best Conan Setting, hands down. You've also provided the best D20 system (IMO).

I do feel that Savage Worlds and C&C are vastly superior systems to D20, but two points here. One, that is an opinion. What system is better is almost purely opinion. Two, the opinion of the masses is they prefer to play D20, and it's not even close. I bet 90% of the rpg community plays D20. I live in the Raleigh area, and there is a pretty sizable gaming community here. Well, it took me A YEAR to find a group of four players willing to play something other than D20. Most people wouldn't give me the time of day once I mentioned it wasn't going to be D20.

So of course D20 is what you're going to choose to build your product on. You're a poor business man if you do not.

So are you perfect? No. Are you doing a good job? Yes. Are you trying to do better? I hope so.

 

[throrII]

Don't get me wrong, I really love the Conan rpg. I've bought the 1E corebook, the AE core book, Scrolls of Skelos, Road of Kings, Pirate Isles, Free Companions, all in print.

I've bought the Compendium, all of the above paper books, several adventrues, the Hyborian F series, Thunder River, Shem, and Ruins all in pdf.

I'm just making observations about the possible effect of 2E on this board, and possibly in sales.

I'm also saying that I've grown tired of the d20/3.5 rules glut system, and am going back to my grognard roots, while using my existing Conan sourcebooks.

 

[Strom]

The license is being slowly wasted...

Oh ye of little faith. Seriously, though. We have 560 pages worth of stuff coming out this month. Sure, we hit a stall with the printing issues, and a few things might not be to everyone's liking (maps, for instance)...

...but can you honestly say that we have not put out the most extensive and quality Conan RPG line to date? I know some of the stuff that is on the schedule, and I can say with all certainty that we are NOT wasting this license.

We might not be doing the Conan RPG some people want to see, but the line is looked upon very well by the gaming community as a whole.

I'm not saying that everyone should love our stuff (it would be nice if they did, but I'm a realist), I'm just saying that maybe we are doing better with it than some people give us credit for.

Personally, I'm just excited to see Bestiary and Trial finally in print! I'll keep my fingers crossed that you guys like them!

Cheers all,
Bry

I agree with Style - well said! It's hard to please everyone all the time but there is some real excitement about the releases coming up. I'm not sure if anyone went through the Warhammer Fantasy RPG 1st edition fiasco back in the day with Hogshead and the issues involved with that game! That is an example of wasting away a license and/or game. Yet even then we had the prior released material and could enjoy that.

As you say, the 'Goose has had their share of issues but I still feel the game hasn't even come close to jumping the shark and is far - 560 pages minimum - from wasting away the license (with all respect to Hervé, Spectator & thorrII who see things differently).

librarycharlie - One spell & one name are not valid criticisms supporting your line wide exclamation of exaggerated Howardism. Spells like Dance of the Cobra need to be included in a game called Conan - even if the majority may not use it.. Like many skills, feats & spells the usage will vary. You are comparing a 1 PP spell (Knot Wind) with a 5 PP spell (Dance of the Cobras) - plus, DotC is a spell from the rulebook, where Mongoose is establishing the foundation for the entire RPG! So the Mongoose RPG was too Howard-centered right from the start?

You lost me awhile ago. Anyone else see what I'm missing? :?

 

[Ichabod]

Of course, people are describing the brilliance that was the OGL. By establishing enough of a market, a tipping point is created, where the market is reformed around the product, and getting away from it is a bitch.

As soon as I started playing D20, I didn't like it. Not that I like previous versions of D&D either. For me, they are too gamey, being well suited to playing videogame fantasy (or whatever genre) but forcing people to jump through hoops to reflect typical fiction genres. I kind of don't get why anyone does level based systems anymore since the online gaming world took the systems from tabletop and vastly improved on them by making playing easy. I understand why WoW or whatever takes people away from their D&D games since WoW is just D&D without the effort. Meanwhile, tabletop RPing, I would think, should flow in a direction away from systems that lend themselves to videogame RPing, into more flexible mechanics. But, I guess there will always be people who want to tell their own stories rather than have some coders create their world and plots and will use D&D because it's there and/or familiar.

And, other people feel the same way about disdaining D20. Yet, hasn't everyone here bought D20 products even if they don't use the system? That just means more D20 products are going to get published, continuing to make it difficult for other systems to popularize. The quantity ... and quality of the material for D20 is so much greater. I used to buy GURPS sourcebooks for the material, but I never intended to play GURPS where D20 is something people fall into because it's the common language.

Now, this is an industry where you can produce something out of the norm since RPG books are basically just reference books and the system doesn't preclude the use of another system. It's not exactly like VHS and Beta.

Of course, the fact that it's not like there are 2-3 systems competing with D20 for attention but 20-30 means that it's difficult for other systems to establish any sort of meaningful identity. I've played, who knows, maybe 40 RPG systems but have never played C&C or True20 or a number of the systems bandied about as "this is so much better than D20". In fact, while my Conan group has never considered anything besides Conan D20 (best I've seen of the D20's, though I hear good things about Modern), my other RPG group is constantly floating different systems and then killing them because there's just no agreement as to what works well and is fun. We went from D&D 3.5, to Spirit of the Century, to Earthdawn, naming about 15 systems in between these campaigns that were unacceptable for one reason or another. I actually like the L5R system more than the background (which I'm sure is the normal draw and I prefer the system to 7th Sea), but that group plays L5R D20 because they think D10 is broken.

 

[Sutek]

Broken.... :roll:

(sigh)

That word has plagued and nearly destroyed this hobby. People say that System X is "broken" when what they really mean is that they managed to break it. The two things are very different. Sure, D20 has it's problems (glitchiness, poor balance, rules holes, etc.), but no publication gets it 100% right. D20 Conan is an improvement on 3.0 D&D that spawned it, and yet the forums light up with bitching about spelling errors. Typos happen, people, and it won't kill you to accept that this isn't heart surgery for Mongoose and lives are not on the line when it comes to cranking out books. Yep, it'd be real swell if the stars aligned, the skys brightened and flowers bloomed as the heavens spat down a flawless RPG, but there's one serious caveat that will always heave up, although it's a two-parter:

Nobody's perfect, and we're gamers - we try to bend the rules to breaking to some extent regardless of the system or it's quality.

Now, I stated right off in this thread that the slow down in the forums was purely because nothing had come out recently. Mongoose reps have piped inand said that same thing. When the bestiary hits shelves, we'll all be back in here comparing notes and filling up the internet some more (lol).

However, what disheartens me is the direction that posts have taken since first edition came out. It had flaws and MGP practically gave away brand new copies to the disgrntled masses at 40% of the cost. In business they have a word for actions like that taken by a company to keep its consumers happy with thier product line: Stupid. Seriously, MGP to a big hit and is continuing to help griping nellies happy by dealing with poor printing issues. I read the complaining and just think "you guys don't know how good you've got it." MGP has consisatntly looked out for this liscence and given, and given...and this is the thanks they get?

I guess I just come from a age long remembered, before the Dark Times (D&D players option - lol) when you could:

• Only get this stuff from toy stores and a ver, very few book stores.
• You bought it with no customer support or no one to even talk about it with, just hoping you could figure it out enough to talk other people into playing it.
• If there were errors or typos, tough! Fix 'em yourself.
• If rules didn't make sense, make sense of them on your own.
• The hobby was propelled by adventures (right, High Lord Dee?) rather than by endless reams of books that amounted to little more than Feat/New Monster lists.

As to those folks claiming that one system is better than another, then go play that one or make up your own. I think D20 works great, and Conan D20 works better, so I'm in the minority, I suppose. I've played with dozens of systems too, but I can't say that one is better than any other. I love the L5R D10 system, and I loved Cyberpunk's D10 system even more. I really dug WEG's d6 Star Wars, way better than D20, but I like a heck of a lot of the D20 version too. I'm thinking that people who are so territorial and competitive about RPGs are peopl that probably ought to be playing Monopoly or something, because RPGs aren't meant to be competative. For that matter, they aren't supposed to be ballanced, realistic, all-encompassing or (dare I say it?) .... complete! Yes folks, this is all supposed to be "open ended" and "play acting fantasy characters" and you should want to play PCs with 18's just as much as PCs with 6s.

In short, I think the reason that it's quiet is that there's less to complain about right now, but, sure as shootin', once we get new material from MGP, everyone will rush to thier keyboards to whine about it and point out the flaws.

There's very little role playing going on out there, IMO. It's all been eaten away at by MMORPGs under the auspicice that those are actually "role playing" when they really are nothing more than stat crunching and buffing to level up and compete with others on-line doing the same.

The crazy thing is that I don't know if I'm a massive cynic, or an eternal optimist...but I think that most of the complaining about the state of RPGs nowadays streams from the instant gratification, video game crowd, and the fact that thier sense of fantasy adn adventure has all the grandeur of an episode of Gossip Girl, leaving the more dedicated and playful of us to enjoy whatever we can get.

The real downside of my opinion, however, is that it's wreckin' my hobby and it sucks.

:lol:

 

[tneva82]

Spells like Dance of the Cobra need to be included in a game called Conan - even if the majority may not use it..

Yeah...There's only so many spells they can include so do they...

a) provide rules for spell that WAS seen in conan stories
b) ignore that spell and create spell of their own...And what then when people wonder how they could do the spell mentioned in stories? Oops! Sorry! Can't do! We rather added this spell never heard in stories instead!

 

[Sutek]

It's a bit of a tangent, but one of the coolest magic systems I've ever played with is Harnmaster. Spells are chosen like Skills, and the PC can do more and more powerful effects as his Mastery Level increases.

Anyway, back to the topic...

 

[Style]

This is off topic, but MGP missed the mark on the Dance of the Cobras spell in a way no one here is mentioning. Here is what Conan saw when he watched Nafetari caught in that spell:

Conan came from behind the curtain, wiping his broad blade. Looking through the hangings he had seen the girl dancing desperately between four swaying spirals of smoke, but he had guessed that their appearance was very different to her.

http://en.wikisource.org/wiki/Shadows_in_Zamboula#Dance.2C_Girl.2C_Dance.21

What you have is a hypnotism spell, where the target is tricked into seeing things that are not there. Basically the Phantasmal Killer spell from D&D, but in the school of enchantment instead of illusion.

So please tell me where 4 hypnotized snakes are required for this spell?

 

[Majestic7]

About d20 and Conan -

I've never liked much d20. I mean, it is a very fun system for games, IF they are exp/loot-driven light fantasy adventures. Turning that system for anything else tends to be crippling. Just look at how terrible d20 Elric and d20 Cthulhu are, the atmosphere of the game world is shot in the leg by the system conversion. I haven't even dared to inspect Traveller d20 closer, as an old fan of Traveller it might cause my face melt.

That said, I think Mongoose Conan is an excellent way to twist d20 in to fitting better the world of Conan. I mean, just look at first (Atlantean) edition Conan RPG - it contains the things that make D&D fun, but mix them with stuff that makes the game more grim and gritty. I like very much the fact that armor gives DR instead of Defence, massive damage may cause death so easily even to level 20 character and how magic is unrealiable through magic attack rolls. I guess the only thing about (Atlantean) core rules I don't like is the High Living rule that I feel to be too confining and - well - just foolish.

However, after Atlantean rules, it seems that the understanding of what d20 truly is have become weaker in Conan supplements and books. I don't know if people writing the stuff have changed or if the philosophy has changed. First, bouncing bonuses like having dozen different things to give floating +1,+2,+3 on things X,Y,Z tend to break the system. One of the things 4 Ed. will try to get rid of is this - and every Conan supplement after AE just seems to bring more floating bonuses in to the game. Second, there are feats and combat maneuvers which complicate the rules by containing subsystem of their own. For example, the feat where the longer the enemy misses you with their attacks, the more endurance penalty they stack to their next attacks. It is certainly a cool feat, but keeping track of such things just adds more work to keeping things rolling and hampers flow of the game.

The second edition is the prime example of shooting oneself in foot with trying to make d20 something it is not. Changing damage of greatswords from 2d10 to 1d10+1d8 just makes no sense whatsoever. If the point was to make reaching massive damage with normal strikes rarer, it achieves not that purpose - strength bonuses and power attack still take damage over 20 with maximum rolls in 95% of cases where someone is wielding a such weapon. The poison rules, while good on paper, are most likely horrible in game usage. Keeping note of how long someone has been poisoned and damage and DC is just too much work. D20 is supposed to be fast and simple. Don't take me wrong - I tend to like grim, gritty systems that try to simulate reality as much as they can. It is just that d20 is NOT the base for trying to build a such system! It conflicts with the basic idea of the whole structure - which is fast, fun, action-orientated game. Instead of turning the game in to faster-flowing system like Star Wars Saga Edition, Conan 2nd Edition seems to be more complicated and slower than the original system.

Well, I'm still running AE and I've just adapted new spells from 2nd Edition. I won't buy the second edition as it doesn't offer me anything. Don't get me wrong though - I think mostly Mongoose Conan stuff has been excellent, in regards to content. It just seems to me that the way they use d20 as a basis for system is lacking in how it is handled.

Oh and folks - remember that it is just a game. Some people just get far too emotional and possessive about their favorite RPG's. I'm not saying that this thread is ugly - it is certainly not - but wanting to avoid such things even coming up in here. Just look at how D&D 4E is causing nerdrage around the internet. I got a closer example too - as a Traveller grognard I've been browsing Mongoose Traveller forum here on the same board and I must unfortunately say that the hostility and bitching there has been so ridicilous that it has kept me from ever posting there.

 

[Hervé]

Majestic7 wrote:

D20 is supposed to be fast and simple

No, I don't think it was ever meant that way...

I do agree with you on the rest, though.

 

[Style]

Majestic7 wrote:

D20 is supposed to be fast and simple

No, I don't think it was ever meant that way...

I was thinking the same thing. D20 is supposed to better a better version of Dungeons and Dragons. Fast and simple has never been dungeons and dragons.

The reason why many things are done the way the are in D20 is because that's the way it's always been done in the game of D&D, not because it's the best way to do it.

 

[sidkfjjteidlkkf]

Personally for me, I am calling a holt to Conan, till I get a better binding version. I have ordered two, two fell apart, have not heard from Matt if I am getting a better binded one.

I've spent enough money on it already, and I refuse to get another $40.00 book (Pay for), when the two I got fell apart.


With the passing of Gygax (Rest in Peace), I am leaning more towards to first edition AD&D. I know what I have is all I will need.

 

[Yogah of Yag]

d20 is NOT simple or fast. NEVER.
AD&D was cumbersome, but still better than d20.
Basic D&D was truly fast and easy. 8)

Perhaps Mongoose should lean more towards a Basic D&D-ish Conan RPG (Hmm, I smell a new thread idea! ), or at least model the game more on a stripped-down, True20 kind of game instead. The Conan RPG needs an "on-ramp" for new players (fresh blood in the game is always good!).

E.g. select a small # or races (Cimmerian, Aquilonian, Nordheimer, and a few others), a few basic classes, small list of weapons (all with the same damage), small list of feats and skills, basic magic system (small list of spells, elementary Power Point rules). Etc.

The races can be drawn from very broad geographical areas of the Thurian continent: Northern (Cimmerian, Nordheimer, Hyperborean...), Central (Aquilonian, Zingaran...), Southern (Shemite, Stygian...), Eastern (Turanian, Hyrkanian, Khitan...).

This raises some good questions: What typifies a "Northern" PC? Ability to withstand very cold environments, certain weapon profs, outdoorsy abilities (hunting, gathering, survival). What typifies a "Central" PC? Adaptability. (I'm drawing a blank for the Hyborians...) "Southern"? More superstitious perhaps, Set worship or animism. "Eastern" horse-oriented skills, nomadic and not sedentary...and so on.


Just a few thoughts, Matt! Don't delete my post! :lol:

 

[Majestic7]

d20 is NOT simple or fast. NEVER.
AD&D was cumbersome, but still better than d20.
Basic D&D was truly fast and easy. 8)

I disagree with capital letters! The basic parts of d20 are very simple. Roll d20, add bonuses, if the roll + stuff is over certain number, you succeed. Roll for something else in some cases, such as damage for weapons. That's it. Simple and fast - at least much more simple and faster than most systems. I never played 1st Ed. D&D, but AD&D with THAC0 and all seems far too overtly complicated compared to 3.5. Just three saves etc. I really can't think of a more simple core system than "roll a die, add a number from your sheet, see if you succeed or not".

Where d20 gets complicated is when special rules get involved or when there are spells that require their own sub-systems. This is something they are trying to get rid off at 4th Edition. Conan d20 has fallen in to this exact folly, adding inside the system subsystems that break the basic mechanics and flow of the game. The same thing is apparent from all the extra supplements of D&D, which break this core, bogging the game down.

Mind you, I'm not fanboy of d20 at any level at all and hate the way it spreads its dirty tentacles to genres and games that it should stay away from. It is good for basic, non-serious hifantasy stuff, but not much else.

 

[Strom]

It is good for basic, non-serious hifantasy stuff, but not much else.

Non-serious? Really? What are you doing in your games, effecting social change?

Please. :roll:

What's a serious game? Russian roulette?

MGP Conan works. For the love of Crom's aching head, this whinning and crying and elist crap about Conan's rules system is dominating this board. Now we need to pass some accellerated course to be considered serious?

Man! Some of you guys need to get fucking laid or something and just fucking play the game.

:lol:

 

[sgstyrsky]

My two cents. Anyone who thinks basic D&D or AD&D were streamlined games compared to d20 either hasn't played the former or has a nostalgic memory of the game.

Doesn't anyone remember the "to hit" chart for every class? You didn't just roll a d20 add a bonus and see if that overcame an opponent's AC. No. What you did is roll a d20, add your bonuses and then cross reference the result with the foe's AC on a chart to determine if a PC of your level and class had hit. Each class had a different chart, so the DM couldn't have one chart in front of him. He had four.

Then there were the multiple saving throws. There were different class-dependent saving throw modifiers for poison, wands, paralyzation, petrification, spells and death (if not more.) What a headache compared to d20.

That's not to say earlier versions of D&D weren't great games. They were (ARE!). We just shouldn't have some rosy view of them as superior to d20.

 

[Sutek]

People who say things like that are speaking from inexperience usually, but I won't cast aspersions. Simply, the mechanics of a game system in NO WAY reflect it's level of seriousness. If they did, I'd have to also accept that TOON was one of the best games ever because it's simple. Ever player TOON?! Simple - but not serious by any stretch of the imagination.

I am a D20 advocate because it is system that works no mater how high you are whem you drop it. (lol) It litterally holds together almost no matter what, and except for the usual clunk that just about every complicated game has, it holds together neatly perfectly.

Two things screw it up: Too many Feats and people who bash it just because WOC keeps shoving 4E down our throats so hard I've got skid marks on my tonsils.

D20 isnt broken. People break it by min-maxing with Feats and, to some degree, Skill Ranks to the point that they aren't even really role playing anymore. Try a character with 10 to 12 in stats, don't dish out magic items like they grown on trees, don't be a human medic if you're playing a Cleric - play a devoted clergy of you deity...

...ah...I could go on and on.

Nottom line, if D20 was so crappy, it wouldn't have lasted this long, now would it.

This forum is slow because we're inbetween stuff. It'll pick up when more Conan books hit and when folks stop bitchin about how lame D20 is...


...sheesh.

8)

 

[Style]

I am a D20 advocate because it is system that works no mater how high you are whem you drop it. (lol) It litterally holds together almost no matter what, and except for the usual clunk that just about every complicated game has, it holds together neatly perfectly.

Anyone ever play D&D at epic levels, i.e. 20+? I have recently. I don't know how your experience went, but everyone in the group I was in found it to be ridiculous. It did not hold together.

 

[sidkfjjteidlkkf]

D20 for the most part encouraged Players to be power players.

I never really cared for it, till Conan came out.

Yes, AD&D was very clunky, but it was GREAT FUN...

Other version took away the flair that first had...

Every dice was used, d20 through d4. Percentiled included.

D20 simplified it and corrupted it in many ways also.

Like I said, I love 1st edition. I Play it, I want to run a game soon at home.