Is it harder to take down NPCs with general hit points?

[Greg Smith]

A charecter with general HPs will have at least 10HPs probably more. These need to be depleted to knock him out.

A character with HPs per loaction will have 5-7 in the head. Given that any successful hit against a failed (or no) parry can allow a manuever that chooses a location, it seems easier to take down a more important NPC than a minion.

I realise that minions will generally have lower skill levels, but it still seems strange.

 

[tarkhan bey]

I found this also to be the case, my players weren't at all sure about it. Book keeping is a lot easier though..

 

[Ultor]

Whenever I've used the minion rules, I've found that the minions fall pretty quickly, taking far less time than the hit location baddies. There's a lot more about combat than just HP, and the critical wound rules mean you're often stopping minions with just 5-6 damage on them.

 

[Sir Gawain]

And if you use general HP every wound goes to the same "location".
With true locations, a PC/NPC can survive a lot of punishment, if taken in different body zones.

 

[PhilHibbs]

A character with HPs per loaction will have 5-7 in the head. Given that any successful hit against a failed (or no) parry can allow a manuever that chooses a location, it seems easier to take down a more important NPC than a minion.

If they are unarmored, then yes, I can see that. Most important NPCs will have some kind of armour, as will even minions. That switches it around significantly.

 

[Da Boss]

Depends hugely on the setting regarding armour and weapons.

We are playing in the Clockwork and Chivalry setting where unless on the battlefield - few people if anyone so far are wearing any armour of note.

We have had two combats thus far - both of which were enjoyable but I personally found some aspects of the system a bit strange and we had to skirt around a few things.

To set the scene the characters (3 of them) are set upon in an alleyway whilst engaged in other business by 3 pistol carrying thugs (Minions). The Thugs have 1 AP armour and we have at most 2 (for big coats).

My Cavalier launches into them as does the good doctor and my highwayman associate and eventually we take them down.

Now if they had been proper NPCs then when we hit and they failed to parry we would have been able to disable them with one hit. However as we were fighting minions and using first fists and then swords (1d8 and 1D6) this became quite long winded - it just seems the wrong way round. The Combat Manoeuvres seemed pretty restrictive with only a few of them being useful (unless you rolled a critical hit) and so those were oft repeated – bleed, choose location and unbalance.


It did not help that we were unsure how pistols acted in close combat against a sword or fist. Do you use the gun normally but you can "parry" as it’s so close, can you not use the gun at all until manoeuvre to range or what.

Similarly unarmed combat - why do you not get 2 actions when you are fighting with both hands (plus other limbs and head) - I can't see why logically you would not with the RAW?

I know for whatever reason they made Unarmed both a style and a skill (weirdly) and so everyone has access but at present the bare knuckle brawler/martial artist is pretty badly treated.

I think it might be worth me looking through my unisystem rules and others to look at some more appropriate unarmed ones – kick people in the nuts etc and I 'll have a trawl through this forum to see if nay more interesting CMs have evolved.

That being said we all enjoyed the session immensely - the setting was good but on occassion the rules are not being helpful...........

(yes I realise we can change them to whatever we like)

 

[Deleriad]

I reckon there is a subtle incompatibility between general hit points and locational hit points that becomes more marked in low-armour, low-magic settings. In that case general hit points can become advantageous. Personally I don't use the system in the book. I use a variation for general hit points.

A character has general hit points equal to what their head hit points would be: i.e. (CON+SIZ)/5.

When an underling reaches 0 hit points it is removed from combat. (Doesn't mean it's dead, just no longer involved).

When a minor NPC reaches 0 or fewer Hit Points it has taken a serious wound and must make a Resilience vs attack roll. If it succeeds it loses its next 1D3 CAs ("stunned") but is otherwise ok. If it fails the roll, it is removed from combat.

When a minor NPCs receives damage equal to twice its HPs it is immediately removed from combat.

Taking 2*HPs in a single blow is a critical wound.

If a NPC with gen HPs has variable armour then it is protected by the rating for its chest armour unless the choose location CM is used.

This makes Gen HPs more vulnerable than locational HPs while actually needing less book-keeping than the published system.

 

[Da Boss]

Still a bit of a bugbear to us this as:

"minions" don't have a hit location so lots of the vaunted Combat Manuevers don't work - and you can then only use a few - boring..........

One solution we are tossing around is simply saying a Minions Hit Location is equal to 1/4 of total hit points.

This makes them (correctly) less durable than a major NPC rather than bizarely far more durable.

but boviouly need to think through implications........

 

[Jujitsudave]

I don't use the general HP rules. I figure that anytime the group engages in battle, the encounter should have some meaning. I don't like using fights as filler.

 

[PhilHibbs]

I don't use the general HP rules. I figure that anytime the group engages in battle, the encounter should have some meaning. I don't like using fights as filler.

Same here, one of the good things about RuneQuest is that any "bad guy" is a real person and a real threat, not just two numbers.

 

[Da Boss]

I don't use the general HP rules. I figure that anytime the group engages in battle, the encounter should have some meaning. I don't like using fights as filler.

Same here, one of the good things about RuneQuest is that any "bad guy" is a real person and a real threat, not just two numbers.

Each to their own - I like to have a mix in my games of minon and "proper" NPC.

The first time we used them - in a pub brawl and street fight - the secnario suggested they use those rules. which was fine but it exposed the varied problems with the system and non armoured combats.

So whilst ignoring the rules is a possibility we are looking at actually making the rules work by adapting them to the genere and play style...............

 

[Deleriad]

I use underling stats and general HPs quite a lot when I'm GMing because it's easier to keep track and also to generate a NPC on the fly. I'm running Pavis Rises. Of the 20,000 or so the players may interact with, I probably have full stats for 20 of them. The rest come into existence as and when needed.

Like I said above, I don't use the RAW for general HPs because it leads to the counter-intuitive situation where a blow that would knock a PC unconscious is not even an inconvenience to a NPC with general HPs.

If you use (CON+SIZ)/5 as gen HPs (i.e. head hit points) then treat being reduced to 0 or less as a serious wound you are simulating the vast majority of incidences of a full stat block with 1 number; especially when choose location is so popular anyway.

I would rather do that than have to break up the flow of play by scribbling down a load of hit locations.

 

[Sir Gawain]

I agree with the necessity to maintain the flow of play, but there is a major feature that keeps me from adopting genHP: my players like to use CM, and often boast their fighting style and their ability to skewer chosen locations (one is famous for always trying to decapitate foes, another one for cutting off arms, and so on).
They don't yet know that using the same CM over and over could be very counter-productive, but I like letting them get a feeling for their characters, and so far I've not used genHP for that only (but important) reason.

 

[Deleriad]

I agree with the necessity to maintain the flow of play, but there is a major feature that keeps me from adopting genHP: my players like to use CM, and often boast their fighting style and their ability to skewer chosen locations (one is famous for always trying to decapitate foes, another one for cutting off arms, and so on).

Thing is you still can.
E.g. NPC with 5 gen HPs (the norm for a human using my system) and 3 AP ring mail hauberk.

If they choose location and aim for the head he a) has no helmet so no armour and b) can be decapitated. If they don't choose location then the armour protects and they have hit the NPC somewhere. Doesn't really matter where in game mechanics but the player can roll a d20 if they wish.

So an NPC w/gen HPs looks something like
SR (11) 9 CA 2, MP 10, AP 3 (body), HP 5
Nearly all the time that's all you need to track in terms of characteristics and attributes.

So If Agrick the Arminator hits the NPC for 7 damage and uses choose location arm then that's a serious wound, -2 HP and the NPC has to make a Resilience roll.