Is armor too important?

[Foxworthy]

The best way to de-emphasis armor with out a major overhaul would be to re do the rules for armor damage. The way it is now the only time I've seen armor damage is when someone needs to make a massive damage save. Which by that point they won't be needing the armor much longer.

If armor needs to be replaced more often people would focus on surviving with out it. They will still use it but it won't be the end all of all armor. Maybe a diffrent damage threshold for armor based on it's catagory. Base it on the damage that goes unsoaked and if it's five points past the armor light degrades by one, 10 points for medium and 15 points for heavy. Then have superior armor add points to that value.

Just an idea.

 

[sbarrie]

What if armour check penalties also applied to initiative? I think that would give characters a nice incentive to travel light.

 

[argo]

If armor needs to be replaced more often people would focus on surviving with out it. They will still use it but it won't be the end all of all armor. Maybe a diffrent damage threshold for armor based on it's catagory. Base it on the damage that goes unsoaked and if it's five points past the armor light degrades by one, 10 points for medium and 15 points for heavy. Then have superior armor add points to that value.

I've toyed with similar ideas, but I think that the bookeeping required would be more trouble than its worth.

Heck, tracking encumbrance is almost more trouble than its worth. Tracking the health of all your items seems like a chore.

 

[Lord Jolly the Scribe]

I track encumberance more than health. It seems like I don't have a lot of sunderers in my game but some of the ppl they will run into do break things to weaken them. I do have a lot of opposing NPC's who finesse a lot.

I think armoer is important in this game due to the lower Parry and Dodge values to start and some of their slow progression, cause my players seem to ick a lot of fights and if it weren't for armor, they would be dead. I guess it all depends on the game and adventure at the time.

 

[Trodax]

What if armour check penalties also applied to initiative? I think that would give characters a nice incentive to travel light.

Nice idea. I like it.

 

[jadrax]

What if armour check penalties also applied to initiative? I think that would give characters a nice incentive to travel light.

From what i have seen in the game I am in that would make heavy armour unusable, as soon as you end up in a fight with a thief you pretty much die automatically.

Having at least light armor is too important. Without it, you take a lot of damage from Hunting Bows and miscellaneous smaller weapons, that would otherwise add up too quickly.

I don't see how it's "too important"

Yes you probably want to be wearing some armour, just as you probably want to be carrying some weapon and probably want some cash. That's part of the setting.

 

[Trodax]

Having at least light armor is too important. Without it, you take a lot of damage from Hunting Bows and miscellaneous smaller weapons, that would otherwise add up too quickly.

I agree. The difference between having a leather jerkin and no armor bugs me more than the difference between having a chain hauberk and no armor.

Having at least light armor is too important. Without it, you take a lot of damage from Hunting Bows and miscellaneous smaller weapons, that would otherwise add up too quickly.

I don't see how it's "too important"

Of course it can be "too important" for someones personal preference, it's just a matter of what you want out of the game. If a leather jerkin had a DR of 20 it would be "too important", wouldn't you agree? (It would almost always be the sole determinant of the outcome of a fight.) It's just a matter of taste if you think whether you have armor or not matters too much.

Yes you probably want to be wearing some armour, just as you probably want to be carrying some weapon and probably want some cash. That's part of the setting.

I don't agree that the stuff you have is an important element of the setting. The more important the stuff you have (weapons and armor) becomes, the more the players will be on the look-out to get their hands on said stuff. If this goes too far, I feel that a part of the Sword & Sorcery feeling is lost. I personally think armor in Conan is slightly too important, as I've seen in my players behaviour (being very careful when they don't have armor, and always trying to get hold of it).

However, I must point out that the way Conan handles this is very good if you compare it to D&D where the stuff you have is vastly more important. I do think Conan could do it even better, though, but all-in-all I guess we're really quibbling over details. :wink:

What if armour check penalties also applied to initiative? I think that would give characters a nice incentive to travel light.

From what i have seen in the game I am in that would make heavy armour unusable, as soon as you end up in a fight with a thief you pretty much die automatically.

Yeah, you might be right about that.

 

[Majestic7]

The biggest problem I have with armor is the arcane spell failure percentile, that is straight from D&D and has no basis whatsoever in Hyboria. I've always thought sorcerers don't wear armor because they don't want to or because they feel they don't need to. Not because it interferes with their powers. In my campaign, it is removed - instead the armor check penalty comes in skill checks required while casting certain spells. They still need the proficiency after all.

I disagree with Trodax on the stuff issues. I don't think good equipment making a difference breaks the spirit of sword & sorcery - it just underlines that only a real hero can kill a knight in a full plate with a wooden spoon, because he is just so damn tough compared to everyone else. I think being careful while unarmored is only wise. Don't the armored soldiers in Conan stories slaughter almost naked savages many times their number, even if they fall in the end? I say keep armor as it is. At most add some penalty to defence for wearing heavy armor.

 

[slaughterj]

The best way to de-emphasis armor with out a major overhaul would be to re do the rules for armor damage. The way it is now the only time I've seen armor damage is when someone needs to make a massive damage save. Which by that point they won't be needing the armor much longer.

If armor needs to be replaced more often people would focus on surviving with out it. They will still use it but it won't be the end all of all armor. Maybe a diffrent damage threshold for armor based on it's catagory. Base it on the damage that goes unsoaked and if it's five points past the armor light degrades by one, 10 points for medium and 15 points for heavy. Then have superior armor add points to that value.

Just an idea.

Decent idea, maybe refined a bit to minimize bookkeeping would be better though.

 

[slaughterj]

Having at least light armor is too important. Without it, you take a lot of damage from Hunting Bows and miscellaneous smaller weapons, that would otherwise add up too quickly.

I don't see how it's "too important"

Here's why:

I think armoer is important in this game due to the lower Parry and Dodge values to start and some of their slow progression, cause my players seem to ick a lot of fights and if it weren't for armor, they would be dead. I guess it all depends on the game and adventure at the time.

You are pretty easy to be hit, especially at early levels, and even at higher levels with just a few mooks surrounding you (the extra +1 attack for each previous melee attacker against you) or foes with equivalent levels (because attack bonuses increase quicker than defense bonuses, you get easier to be hit at higher levels while fighting equivalent foes).

Further, at low levels, you have low HP, so getting hit by something weak like a Hunting Bow a couple of times means you are at death's door, but if you have even a Leather Jerkin, you will have probably only taken a couple of points on average after several hits (1d8, average damage 4.5, minus DR 4). That's a huge difference in how the adventure will play out, and that's why at least light armor is "too important."

 

[jadrax]

I personally think armor in Conan is slightly too important, as I've seen in my players behaviour (being very careful when they don't have armor, and always trying to get hold of it).

Well yes, but I am guessing there there the exact same way about weapons too?

 

[jadrax]

You are pretty easy to be hit, especially at early levels, and even at higher levels with just a few mooks surrounding you (the extra +1 attack for each previous melee attacker against you) or foes with equivalent levels (because attack bonuses increase quicker than defense bonuses, you get easier to be hit at higher levels while fighting equivalent foes).

Further, at low levels, you have low HP, so getting hit by something weak like a Hunting Bow a couple of times means you are at death's door, but if you have even a Leather Jerkin, you will have probably only taken a couple of points on average after several hits (1d8, average damage 4.5, minus DR 4). That's a huge difference in how the adventure will play out, and that's why at least light armor is "too important."

Again, I agree totally with your maths.

I think its difference of opinion over the setting. Typically People in Armour should have a big advantage over people that don't, Just as people with Swords should typically have a big advantage over people using just there fists.

 

[Trodax]

I personally think armor in Conan is slightly too important, as I've seen in my players behaviour (being very careful when they don't have armor, and always trying to get hold of it).

Well yes, but I am guessing there there the exact same way about weapons too?

Yes, although the "search for stuff"-aspect has always bugged me more in regards to armor, for some reason.

 

[slaughterj]

You are pretty easy to be hit, especially at early levels, and even at higher levels with just a few mooks surrounding you (the extra +1 attack for each previous melee attacker against you) or foes with equivalent levels (because attack bonuses increase quicker than defense bonuses, you get easier to be hit at higher levels while fighting equivalent foes).

Further, at low levels, you have low HP, so getting hit by something weak like a Hunting Bow a couple of times means you are at death's door, but if you have even a Leather Jerkin, you will have probably only taken a couple of points on average after several hits (1d8, average damage 4.5, minus DR 4). That's a huge difference in how the adventure will play out, and that's why at least light armor is "too important."

Again, I agree totally with your maths.

I think its difference of opinion over the setting. Typically People in Armour should have a big advantage over people that don't, Just as people with Swords should typically have a big advantage over people using just there fists.

It's a matter of degree though. The step from nothing to 4-6 DR (leather or mail shirt and maybe steel cap) is tremendous, but the steps to higher amounts of armor are much less significant. Maybe make a base leather / heavy furs at 2 DR, with DR 4 being a more expensive hard-boiled or other variety of leather, so that some people might only have DR 2-3 (with steel cap). Then damage from non-STR adder weapons or mooks with STR 12 don't just wash off, but are at least a bit reduced.

 

[rgrove0172]

So after 3 pages of banter it appears the overall opinion of those that have played the game a while is that the armor rules are fine, right?

At a glance I kind of thought they were a bit steep too, but I havent played very much. Reading the stories it doesnt appear to be a great disadvantage to be unarmored, at least in Conan's case, yet he is armored whenever he has the choice.

I think Ill play with the rules as is for a while and see how it works for us.

 

[Netherek]

Well, armour isn't as important if you are of higher level than those you face as your defense will be higher. If they don't hit you very often than the maneuverability gained by not carrying much outways the advantages of armour.

Though I think that having Reflex and Initiative penalties might be appropriate, like -1 per catagory. Or apply the Dex limit to Dodge on both Reflex and Initiative. I don't have a problem with current ruling on armour so not sure which would be best.

 

[arderkrag]

If you think armor is too important, don't get hit. That's how Conan stays alive, since you think that should be fine go with it.

Realistically, armor makes a huge difference once you do get hit.

 

[Sutek]

I think that having a hundred pounds of armor not hurt your parry defense AT ALL is a bit of a problem. It can't help your parrying ability to lug around all that steel.

What if armour check penalties also applied to initiative? I think that would give characters a nice incentive to travel light.

INIT is already impacted, adn armor affects Dodge but not Parry, which is STR based.

Max Dex bonus is the maximum DEX bonus that you can use wearing that armor for anything, including Initiative, Dodge Defense and DEX based attacking.

Well made armor was historically very well ballanced, and even if it weighed loads sitting on the rack, once actually worn by a warrior, it's been said that they could do cartwheels and tumbles in even full plate.

Say that, as a 4th level Thief with DEX 18(+4) (, you have a Mail Hauberk on: Each of those would be two lower than normal, not to mention all the things that can't be done with armor on. Keep in mind, ther are also lots of things that can only be done while unarmored and unencumbered.

I think the DR numbers bear out a good ballance. Penalizing both Dodge and Parry while in armor seems unduly harsh. It would make wearing it more like becoming a tree stump that people just bash on until the get through it.

 

[Netherek]

Actually, the Dex limit only applies to dodge, but I think having it limit Initiative and may Reflex saves would be appropriate. That would really change up reasons for wearing various armour types.

 

[Auggie]

This is the only 'fantasy' game where I am content with a leather jerkin instead of rushing into the nearest mail shirt