Interesting new name for this forum!

[Chardros The Reaper]

They measure how much your character enjoys lengthy progressive rock music with yodelling solos performed by Dutch bands from the 60s...

Whoa...in that case I hope you've incorporated Sanity Points into the system!

 

[elgrin]

Ah, excellent. Good to know, thank you, sir! So what are Focus Points? Hmmm....Can't wait to dig into the book!

They measure how much your character enjoys lengthy progressive rock music with yodelling solos performed by Dutch bands from the 60s...

Wow, I suppose that as I am in the process of moving my original LP's of exactly that type onto CD/MP3 format I must have a pretty good base FP (or be completely mind-shot?). :wink:

 

[Rurik]

I mean base 61 (!) before points go in those skills.

High, innit? A starting max of 76 (!!) before points and before any racial bonuses (Melnibonean CHA+POW, anyone?).

It would be illuminating to hear the thinking behind this, as it's quite a radical shift. Wonder what SpaceQuest ("can be considered MRQ II") will do?

Talking of which...those 'two new attributes' Matt teased us with a while back. Fate and Focus Points? (Rep's on there too, but that's a RQC artefact.) Have Hero Points been split into two functions?

In other views, the previews look great!

- Q

Adventurers in both Tragic Millenium Europe and the YK face dangers a lot tougher than you'd find in somewhere like Glorantha. Both are far more volatile worlds. However, advancing in both is handled much differently. And sure, you can whack a load of points into Res and Per to hoik them up, but it'll be at the expense of something else, so you have to weight your options carefully.

But any player who has played MRQ so far has already likely gotten used to the idea of spending 20-30 points on Resilience during chargen anyway. Sure they come from somewhere else, but Resilience more than any other skill (or attribute for that matter) affects how likely your character is to survive a game. A 90 pound (40 kg) weakling with a 90 resilience is more likely to survive a combat than Burly Bob with a 50 resilience.

I have often seen starting resiliences in the 70's by the old* rules. Give an extra 40 on top of that...

I realise there are other rules changes, and that Stormbringer/Elric has always had powerful starting characters and a heroic aspect to it. I will certainly try out the rules as written, but in my experience once Resilience reaches 95+ it is pretty hard to die (assuming medical attention/healing magic is readily available).

I have proposed a couple of houserules in the past that deal with high resilience, so it is pretty easy to work around if it indeed does become a problem.

*Boy it sure feels odd calling the MRQ Core 'old rules'.

 

[Loz]

High, innit? A starting max of 76 (!!) before points and before any racial bonuses (Melnibonean CHA+POW, anyone?).

It would be illuminating to hear the thinking behind this, as it's quite a radical shift. Wonder what SpaceQuest ("can be considered MRQ II") will do?

Talking of which...those 'two new attributes' Matt teased us with a while back. Fate and Focus Points? (Rep's on there too, but that's a RQC artefact.) Have Hero Points been split into two functions?

In other views, the previews look great!

- Q

Adventurers in both Tragic Millenium Europe and the YK face dangers a lot tougher than you'd find in somewhere like Glorantha. Both are far more volatile worlds. However, advancing in both is handled much differently. And sure, you can whack a load of points into Res and Per to hoik them up, but it'll be at the expense of something else, so you have to weight your options carefully.

But any player who has played MRQ so far has already likely gotten used to the idea of spending 20-30 points on Resilience during chargen anyway. Sure they come from somewhere else, but Resilience more than any other skill (or attribute for that matter) affects how likely your character is to survive a game. A 90 pound (40 kg) weakling with a 90 resilience is more likely to survive a combat than Burly Bob with a 50 resilience.

I have often seen starting resiliences in the 70's by the old* rules. Give an extra 40 on top of that...

I realise there are other rules changes, and that Stormbringer/Elric has always had powerful starting characters and a heroic aspect to it. I will certainly try out the rules as written, but in my experience once Resilience reaches 95+ it is pretty hard to die (assuming medical attention/healing magic is readily available).

I have proposed a couple of houserules in the past that deal with high resilience, so it is pretty easy to work around if it indeed does become a problem.

*Boy it sure feels odd calling the MRQ Core 'old rules'.

You're right, of course. Advancement in Res and Per after char gen is thus capped in both games.

 

[Rurik]

Advancement in Res and Per after char gen is thus capped in both games.

Ahh. Y'know, that may just have a bit of impact on the matter...

 

[Quire]

Advancement in Res and Per after char gen is thus capped in both games.

Ahh. Y'know, that may just have a bit of impact on the matter...

It also stops them from being 'skills'. Which they never should have been in the first place (grumble grumble).

- Q

 

[Loz]

Advancement in Res and Per after char gen is thus capped in both games.

Ahh. Y'know, that may just have a bit of impact on the matter...

It also stops them from being 'skills'. Which they never should have been in the first place (grumble grumble).

- Q

You can train yourself to accept both physical and mental hardship. Look at Special Forces - they're trained to march for days on little food with huge weights, in conditions that would cripple or kill the average Joe, and to withstand all kinds of torture and brainwashing.

 

[Quire]

You can train yourself to accept both physical and mental hardship. Look at Special Forces - they're trained to march for days on little food with huge weights, in conditions that would cripple or kill the average Joe, and to withstand all kinds of torture and brainwashing.

Sure. But it's arguable what is being 'trained' in those instances. Skills? or characteristics?

Anyway, it's an old argument and one I think is long over. More to the point, I was responding to the fact that you said:

Advancement in Res and Per after char gen is thus capped in both games.

And if something is capped after charGen, it's not really a skill, is it?

- Q

 

[Rurik]

I don't mind so much that they are skills - you can certainly condition yourself to take punishment. Boxers and Kickboxers do extensive conditioning. Many of these guys do not even bruise from blows that would seriously mess up a normal person. They are some hard Mofo's.

Special forces being another example.

Though I suppose you could argue that they are in fact training up their CON.

The Skill method actually has some advantages over the old Stat x 5 method. That method works fine for Human range stats, but what of the Mostali with the 20 CON? The problem I see is that there needs to be some way to stop someone from shaking off many heinous wounds with impunity (now that total HP are gone). In play Resilience has actually worked really well in my opinion - up until it gets into the 90's range.

Thinking about it capping it in chargen will only work well if it can't be raised to 95+ easily through chargen. Free spend skill points don't care how high a skill is , adding 10 points 'costs' the same whether those points are from 20 to 30 or from 90 to 100 in a skill. Raising a Resilience in the high 80's through experience is likely going to result in a lot of 1 Skill Point per Improvement Point upgrades.

I realize I am drawing conclusions based upon incomplete previews of the rules changes - but hey, that is the natural alchemical reaction when you mix previews, forums, and human nature (a sometimes unstable mixture as well).

What I am currently using in MRQ is all resilience checks are halved for Major Wounds. I used to have a table for negative modifiers based on wound level and location (head wounds really hurt), but scrapped it for the more simple half for major wound rule.

Though I don't use them the increasing fatigue level for major wounds method some use seems to also work pretty well.

 

[Rurik]

And if something is capped after charGen, it's not really a skill, is it?

That is a very valid point. It seems perhaps they should be moved from Skills to Attributes if there is no way to raise them (though Loz has not absolutely stated there is NO way to raise them, just that it is limited in some way).

 

[Quire]

And if something is capped after charGen, it's not really a skill, is it?

That is a very valid point. It seems perhaps they should be moved from Skills to Attributes if there is no way to raise them (though Loz has not absolutely stated there is NO way to raise them, just that it is limited in some way).

Absolutely. And that is where I would have liked to have seen both Pers and Resi in the first place. Especially as I would argue that 'training up' toughness and will power _is_ about raising Characteristics, not skills. But as I said, that's an argument long past.

It is worth remembering that Resi tests for Major Wounds are only about staving off death, not avoiding it completely. Let's imagine there is a system where Resi is CONx5 (). Even the 20 CON Mostali is still going to die after CON+POW (or half that for abdomen, chest and head) rounds from a major wound - if he doesn't get seen to in the interim.

I'd argue that CONx5 Resi also works for CON 20+ creatures, because Resi is not just about Major Wounds (and you can even auto-fail or fumble Resi rolls) and can be used in opposed rolls. If Characteristic x 5 rolls AREN'T workable for 20+ scores ... then why are skills of 100+ workable?

- Q

 

[Rurik]

I'd argue that CONx5 Resi also works for CON 20+ creatures, because Resi is not just about Major Wounds (and you can even auto-fail or fumble Resi rolls) and can be used in opposed rolls. If Characteristic x 5 rolls AREN'T workable for 20+ scores ... then why are skills of 100+ workable?

But my point was that Resilience over 100% isn't all that workable(and Persistence for spell resistence - but that is really a whole other subject).

CON+POW/2 Rounds is a long time to be running around after having half your skull bashed in, and certainly long enough to say get a couple good attacks in to disable your foe(s) and still have time for some healing. You are making 2 rolls per round (1 to stay alive and a second to stay concious), so the odds are that you will roll an automatic failure and either die or pass out in around 10 rounds.

In defense of skills (and I don't feel at all that skills is even necessarily a better way than STATx5, but after using them I don't hate them), a 20 CON Mostali with a 15 POW (nice stats) has a base 35 Resilience, add 20 points for the max that can be gained by Background and Profession, and 30 free spend ponts, and the Max acheivable is 85 to start.

Until of course the 'Holy Grail' RQ setting come out. In which case the rules are perfect for the armless Black Night hopping around on one leg saying "It's only a flesh wound".

 

[Quire]

Until of course the 'Holy Grail' RQ setting come out. In which case the rules are perfect for the armless Black Night hopping around on one leg saying "It's only a flesh wound".

LOL! Absolutely.

Yes, it's the Major Wounds rule that needs tweaking, because as written, you're either unconscious, dead, or fine (ish - just penalised for missing/useless limbs).

And with tweaks, Resiliences of 100+ have - in actual play - worked out just fine for us. As do Pers of 100+.

(Now, if I can just find a use for SIZx5 other than resisting being picked up by a Roc...)

- Q

 

[Rurik]

I am statting the Vorpal Bunny right now.

His attack needs to be 180% so he can safely bypass armor and target the head in one attack (he is allowed an exception to the cannot combine precise attack rules), and damage I think should be 1d2+30.

As a special rule Resilience rolls as a result of being damaged by him are at minus 100%.

4 combat action and a 125% dodge. Plus he is minus 40 to hit for his size.

Thoughts?

 

[atgxtg]

Rurik,
The Vorpal Bunny isn't quite that good, just that it has intergrated a few ru8nes and knows Toothsharp 12, Shimmer 10, Mobility 8, and Coordination 6.

That's why it kills Knights--so it can afford to buy more magic! :wink: :wink:


More seriously, I think the problem with Resilience is that is is effectively unopposed, so very high levels can stave off the effects of injuries for a while.


What might work out would be to apply a modifer to the Resilience test based upon the amount/degree of damage sustained. In other words a 50 point head hit should be harder to resist than a 20 point head hit.

Maybe something like -5% per point of damage past the location Hit Point total? Or maybe just a flat modifer for each multiple of the location's HP? Or maybe just oppose the roll by the damage taken (or maybe damage/5)?

THat way it makes sense to continue to improve the Resisience score, and a high score doesn't lead to "It's just a flesh wound!" sillyness.

 

[Quire]

Thoughts?

Sure. Just not enough to cope with the vorpal bunny!

- Q

 

[Rurik]

Rurik,
The Vorpal Bunny isn't quite that good, just that it has intergrated a few ru8nes and knows Toothsharp 12, Shimmer 10, Mobility 8, and Coordination 6.

And a buttload of Magic Points.

Regarding Resilience: after trying a few more complicated solutions I think I've settled on any Resilience test caused by a Major Wound is at 1/2. So you really need a 190+ skill to become "immune".

Though I am not afraid of more complicated math in games I support the principle of keeping rules simple, and really the above rule makes Major Wounds much more lethal without added math or tables (my first 'fix' was a table of modifiers based on wound severity and location - crunchier, yes, but also a table to look up/memorize).

 

[Quire]

THat way it makes sense to continue to improve the Resisience score, and a high score doesn't lead to "It's just a flesh wound!" sillyness.

The simplest way to deal with the issue is to rule that any Major Wound is debilitating - the Resi rolls only come in to it to check if you die outright.

It makes a lot of sense as soon as you do that.

Oh, and one to the head kills you. End of story.

- Q

PS Deja vu. I'm sure we did this before at least a year ago. Only last time ... there was no vorpal bunny.

 

[Quire]

my first 'fix' was a table of modifiers based on wound severity and location - crunchier, yes, but also a table to look up/memorize

Always the last resort. Flat across-the-board debilitation, man, gotta be the way to go.

- Q

 

[Baron Meliadus]

The simplest way to deal with the issue is to rule that any Major Wound is debilitating - the Resi rolls only come in to it to check if you die outright.

That's the way I would use it too. Opponent's drop no matter, but tough bastards might still survive if they get help... Simple and elegant.