Instruction Skill as Written

[opensent]

I must be reading this wrong, but based on this text:

Teaching the skill requires an Instruction test on the behalf of the
teacher, which takes between 1-6 days less than the time it would
normally take (depending on Timing – see page 59 of the Traveller
main rulebook).

It seems like the main benefit for Instruction is that it saves 1d6 days worth of time on the standard skill improvement mechanism (To increase a skill, a character must train for a number of weeks
equal to his current Skill Total plus the desired level of the skill.)

One of my players noted that this seemed like kind of a joke since the trade off is two die throws which could fail (instructor, student). The default core rule mechanism has no throws required, just the element of time. Why risk the failure for shaving 1d6 days off months worth of training?

Does anyone have any idea how is this skill supposed to work?

 

[rust]

Ah ... where did you find an Instruction skill ? :shock:

Is this one of the new skills from Mercenary, or did I manage to
miss it ? :?

 

[Sean-Khan]

I guess this would only be really effective to gain level 0 and 1. I don't think whole training should fail if a roll is failed, it should just take normal time.

 

[Delerium]

Yep we also noted this.

The only sensible conclusion was that it's a misprint.

 

[B_Steele]

Nope...not a misprint. There are a lot of skills that seem like they just cannot be "learned" without having someone show you how. For instance, if you are a desert worlder and you are on a spaceship headed to a waterworld you might want to learn how to swim. Without a proper instructor, this seems like it would be impossible. At least someone trained to teach others could give you the basics.

The sorts of skills that make the Referee raise an eyebrow as "how do you learn that?" are PERFECT for someone with the Instruction skill to teach.

After all, if everyone can learn any skill at any time...why would there be universities or cadre units?

-Bry

 

[ZobMan]

I was thinking about making players make some sort of roll for training to represent their willpower and success at studying. It's all very well saying 'my character will train astrogation for three weeks' but many (most?) students would realistically probably spend the first two in the bar before getting round to opening a book. I know I did.

I might have the instructor mitigate this roll as they would help the learner focus.

 

[Delerium]

Nope...not a misprint. There are a lot of skills that seem like they just cannot be "learned" without having someone show you how. For instance, if you are a desert worlder and you are on a spaceship headed to a waterworld you might want to learn how to swim. Without a proper instructor, this seems like it would be impossible. At least someone trained to teach others could give you the basics.

The sorts of skills that make the Referee raise an eyebrow as "how do you learn that?" are PERFECT for someone with the Instruction skill to teach.

After all, if everyone can learn any skill at any time...why would there be universities or cadre units?

-Bry

Good point.

You chose swimming as an example, but there seems to be no swimming skill per se. (Atheletics perhaps?)
There was a thread here about that somewhere.

Also, I am not sure, as in your example, where you are headed for a waterworld, that you would have time for an instructor to teach you swimming.
Just taking random character with a typical 10 skills, instructor rolls a 3, wouldn't give you much change out of 10 weeks....

But yes it would make it possible, just not practical.

 

[Emperor Herdan]

Huh...

I read it as meaning the following (and this is just off the top as I'm "Working" (darn us snivel servants))

Instructor Bob has Instruction 5 , Piloting 5, Jot 3, and Gunner 1
He can teach Piloting 4 or Gunner 0

Instructor rolls for effect of his instruction (determines # of students that can roll for learning the skill)

Time taken is the usual less 1 to 6 days

(This is what I read...) The skill gained is one less of either the instructors instruction skill or the skill being taught. Thus Bob can teach someone to go from no skill to skill 4 piloting in one "sitting"

For skill 0 or level 1 being gained... not much of a time saving benefit.

But check out the time needed to gain a Level 3 or 4 skill. Thats where it becomes a much better way to learn.

Take care

E. Herdan

 

[rust]

Well, let me try it again ...

I was unable to find an Instruction skill in my copy of the German version
of Mongoose Traveller, and I wonder whether this is perhaps one of the
new skills from the Mercenary supplement.

Could someone please tell me whether this is true ?

Thank You !

 

[Emperor Herdan]

Yes Rust;

It's from Mercenary.

Take care

E. Herdan

 

[rust]

Thank you very much !

 

[opensent]

After all, if everyone can learn any skill at any time...why would there be universities or cadre units?

-Bry

Indeed. It begs the question as to why you would include a game mechanic in the CORE version of the rules that allows just that!!

 

[Emperor Herdan]

Home !...

Anyway this is how I currently view gaining skills...

As per Mongoose Traveller (pg. 59) Learning New Skills

“ The more skills a character possesses, the longer it takes him to learn a new skill. A characters Skill Total is calculated by summing the levels of each skill (level 0 skills count as zero). A character with Mechanic 1 and Gun Combat (Slug Pistols) 2 would have a Skill Total of 3.

To increase a skill, a character must train for a number of weeks equal to his current skill total plus the desired level of the skill. So, to advance from Pilot 2 to Pilot 3 with a current skill total of 3 would take (three, plus three) six weeks. A character may only train one skill in a given week.

The Jack of all trades skill cannot be learned in play”

As per Mongoose Mercenary (pg. 38) Instruction Skill
“This skill allows the character to help others learn from their knowledge and experience. Anyone with the Instruction skill can pass on the basics of their own knowledge to less experienced characters over a period of time. They can, with a successful check, pass skills to other charcters up to a maximum level of one less than their instruction skill or one less than their own skill level in the skill being taught (whichever is lower). “

And also this

“During the training, the Referee should severely curtail the activities of all characters involved. At the conclusion of the training, the learning character(s) must then succeed in an Education or Intelligence roll with a target number of 8+. Player characters cannot teach the Instruction skill to other Player Characters.”

Self Taught Skills (note that NO skill is disallowed... DIY Explosives course?! I think this is what opensent is referring to)

Training Weekly : (Skill total + (# weeks equal to +1 Skill level gain)) = Total time
To go from a Level 1 to a Level 4 with a skill total (ST) (at the start) of 4 would be
(Level 1 to Level 2) 4 Weeks plus 2 Weeks = 6 Weeks. New ST = 5.
(Level 2 to Level 3) 5 weeks plus 3 weeks = 8 weeks. New ST = 6.
(Level 3 to Level 4) 6 Weeks plus 4 Weeks = 10 Weeks. New ST of 7
Total time required is 24 weeks (6+8+10).

INSTRUCTION Skill for training

Instructor must roll 8+ on Instruction skill (either INT or EDU based) 2d6 +Skill Level +DM Modifier (Int or Edu) This value (Final number) minus 8 gives the number of students who can check to see if they learn that skill
Students must roll 8+ (on either Intelligence or Education) 2d6 + DM Modifier (Intelligence or Education)

Training time is (Students ST) (in weeks) + (1 week for Skill) - (1 to 6 days)
Students gain the lower of either the instructors (skill level—1) or (instructors instruction skill level –1)

Example NPC (or PC) Instructor Bob has Pilot (grav) 6 , Instruction 5, Drive (Mole) 3, JOT 3, and Sneak 1 Int DM +1, Edu DM +2

NPC Instructor Bob can only teach one subject at a time. He could teach Pilot (grav) 4, Instruction 4, Drive (Mole) 2, or Sneak 0.
PC Instructor Bob can also only teach one subject at a time. He could teach Pilot (grav) 4, Drive (Mole) 2, or Sneak 0.

Instructor Bobs Instruction roll is 2d6 +5 (His Instruction skill level) +2 (His education DM modifier) = 2d6 + 7. At worse Bob will be able to have only 1 student who can attempt to learn the skill up to, at best, a class of 11 . ((2d6 +7) -8)

For low level skills, instruction helps a little. For higher level skills, Instruction can save a lot of time.

From the earlier example of going from a Level 1 skill to a level 4 skill (with a ST of 4 at the start) would be

4 Weeks Plus 1 week Minus 1-6 days AND roll 8+ (Intelligence or Education) to gain Skill Level 4. Total time about 4 to 5 weeks compared to 24...

Now I'm almost willing to wager I'm wrong (as I am so often)... But thats how I see it right now.

Take care

E. Herdan

(edit... removede all the "smilies" sheesh made it a hash...)

 

[opensent]

"To increase a skill, a character must train for a number of weeks
equal to his current Skill Total plus the desired level of the skill."

Ah, but couldn't you also interprete this as:

Train for X + Y weeks, where X = number of Skill Total and where Y = the desired level of skill (say, Gun Combat-6).

If Skill Total = 10, then X+Y= 16 weeks, since Y = the desired level of skill.

That you can only gain one level at a time is not explicit in the RAW for this section. Furthermore, a skill does not equal a skill level (pg 6.): "A
character’s proficiency in a skill is denoted by his level in that skill."

So why would anyone desire a level of skill other than 6? It's only 5 more weeks of training. The rule says 'desired level'.

The example implies that you would need to increase by 1 point, but this is not explicitly stated.

Seems this section is so ambigous that we can justfy almost anything with it. :lol:

 

[Delerium]

I think Emperor Herdan is on to something here.


The small group of Instructors waited in anticipation, ready to learn the terrible truth...where they useful or would they be spaced....

 

[Matrix Cypher]

I must be reading this wrong, but based on this text:

Teaching the skill requires an Instruction test on the behalf of the
teacher, which takes between 1-6 days less than the time it would
normally take (depending on Timing – see page 59 of the Traveller
main rulebook).

It seems like the main benefit for Instruction is that it saves 1d6 days worth of time on the standard skill improvement mechanism (To increase a skill, a character must train for a number of weeks
equal to his current Skill Total plus the desired level of the skill.)

One of my players noted that this seemed like kind of a joke since the trade off is two die throws which could fail (instructor, student). The default core rule mechanism has no throws required, just the element of time. Why risk the failure for shaving 1d6 days off months worth of training?

Does anyone have any idea how is this skill supposed to work?

Perhaps if the 1-6 days off was for the week time increment. Aka you roll a 5 then is 2 days per increment say it would normally take you 7 weeks to get trained to the next level then it would only take you 2 weeks.

 

[Emperor Herdan]

"To increase a skill, a character must train for a number of weeks
equal to his current Skill Total plus the desired level of the skill."

Ah, but couldn't you also interprete this as:

Train for X + Y weeks, where X = number of Skill Total and where Y = the desired level of skill (say, Gun Combat-6).

If Skill Total = 10, then X+Y= 16 weeks, since Y = the desired level of skill.

That you can only gain one level at a time is not explicit in the RAW for this section. Furthermore, a skill does not equal a skill level (pg 6.): "A
character’s proficiency in a skill is denoted by his level in that skill."

So why would anyone desire a level of skill other than 6? It's only 5 more weeks of training. The rule says 'desired level'.

The example implies that you would need to increase by 1 point, but this is not explicitly stated.

Seems this section is so ambigous that we can justfy almost anything with it. :lol:

Hmm an equally valid point (smile). I didn't even see that point of view. Mind you I think I'll stick to my own viewpoint as otherwise we might have to space all the cadre / Instructors (and thats just so messy!)

Take care

E. Herdan

 

[Rikki Tikki Traveller]

I think Matrix Cypher has the intended idea.

The time (with instruction skill) becomes (1week - 1d6 days)*number of weeks per the formula.

I would NOT allow someone to go from no skill to Skill-6 (or whatever) in one jump.

It is implicit if not explicit that you go up one level of skill at a time.

So first you learn Skill-1, then you can work on Skill-2, then Skill-3 etc.

Instruction reduces the weeks time by 1d6 days, times number of weeks.

 

[lurker]

Instruction reduces the weeks time by 1d6 days, times number of weeks.

Does it reduce the total # of weeks or does it just allow you to have a life, and only attend classes a few days a week instead of every day?

 

[opensent]

I just ran into another problem with this skill, pointed out to me by a player who actually intends to use it.

Let's say the result of the check allows the instructor to teach 4 people skill X.

Well what are the odds that those four people have the same Skill Total? Somewhere between zero and none, that's what!

As written, the skills is almost useless. It saves 1d6 days from the overall time, but you end up having to teach for several weeks longer because one or two people in the class will have higher skill totals than the others.

Even the 1d6 per week version which has been proposed would suck if you had a Skill Total 2 character sitting in class with a skill total 7.

I'm going back to the CT version of this rule.