Information wanted - US army in WWI/1920s

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Ben2

Mongoose
I'm fairly sure as to the armour ('Liberty' tank, FT-17, M1917 6 ton) and the weaponry (BAR, Springfield, potato digger, french mg with semicircle mag whose name I can't remember off the top of my head).

What I am after is the squad size. WWII US army had pretty big squads (and fairly often two BARs), but was the squad size the same in the 1920s/WWI.

Did US squads have an LMG (BAR or french lmg w/semicircle clip) as standard? Did the french LMG continue in use after the end of WWI? Did they get given back to the French or sold? Did they end up in state armouries?

I'll post some mini questions in a seperate thread.
 
Tough questions. I'll have to do some big digging, to find these answers. IF if can. I do know that the BAR saw little action and didn't really come into it's own till the Second World War.

After all your talking about the Browing Weapon of 1918, right? Other so called LMG of the 1st world war were NOT truly light weapons, and could not keep up with the Infantry. Thus they remained part of the MG. Battalions. The MGs of WW1 took between 3 and six men to man afterall.

I'm not sure of WW1 squads. Seems the Infantry were more along the line of Platoon and Up in structure. Which makes since in some ways since it would be hard to keep in contact unless units were large.

Get back with you if I get any good info.
 
GJD that is a really good movie!

Ben2

Here you go:

The basic combat unit of an AEF division was the 59 man platoon

Platoon Headquarters

1 Lieutenant
1 Sergeant (Armed with pistol & rifle)
4 Privates
6 Men

First Section (Hand Bomber)

2 Corporals (Armed with Pistol and Rifle)
3 Privates 1st. Class (Armed with Rifle and Pistol)
1 Private 1st Class (Armed with Rifle)
6 Privates (Armed with rifle)
12 Total Enlisted Men

Second Section (Rifle Grenadiers)

2 Corporals (Armed with Pistol and Rifle)
1 Private 1st Class (armed with rifle)
6 Privates (Armed with Rifle)
9 Total Enlisted Men (6 Rifle Grenadiers & 3 Carriers)

Third Section (Riflemen)

1 Sergeant (Armed with Pistol and Rifle)
2 Corporals (Armed with Rifle)
6 Privates 1st Class (Armed with Rifle)
8 Privates (Armed with Rifle)
17 Total Enlisted Men

Fourth Section (Automatic Riflemen)

1 Sergeant (Armed with Pistol and Rifle)
2 Corporals (Armed with Pistol and Rifle)
4 Privates 1st Class (Lewis gunners also armed with Pistol)
8 Privates (Armed with Rifle)
15 Total Enlisted Men

Total Platoon

3 Sergeants
8 Corporals
15 Privates 1st Class
32 Privates
58 Enlisted Men
1 Officer
59 Aggregate

4 platoons and a headquarters detachment to a company.
4 companies to a battalion.
3 battalions plus a machinegun company to a regiment.
2 regiments plus a machine gun battalion to a brigade.
2 infantry brigades plus 1 artillery brigade (2 artillery regiments) plus an engineer regiment, a machinegun battalion, signal battalion, supply and sanitary (medical) trains to a division.

I found the information here:

http://www.oryansroughnecks.org/orgof27th.html

The BAR was introduced to the front in August of 1918, the Army felt that the weapon was too potent to risk capture so they did not allow many all the way up to the trenches! So the Doughboys had to use either the French Chauchat ( an inglorious piece of poop ) or the Lewis Gun, more reliable but tricky with its own little ways.


Let me know what you're up to as I have been working a WWI mod foe BFEvo for a few weeks now. I'd be happy to share what I have borrowed off resources on the web.
 
The Old Soldier said:
Other so called LMG of the 1st world war were NOT truly light weapons, and could not keep up with the Infantry.
Click to expand...
Lewis could do this quite well (12 kilos only) and Brits assigned it to infantry squads. Its development allowed to hold on to captured enemy trenches (before LMG introduction after a successful attack the infantry could not hold the captured trench).
US Marines used Chauchat LMGs (complete POS, very unreliable and with poor ballistics), the Army used Chauchats and Lewis LMGs. Some units had one LMG, some had two. The BARs were introduced in very late 1918 and didn't really make any impact.

The Old Soldier said:
I'm not sure of WW1 squads. Seems the Infantry were more along the line of Platoon and Up in structure. Which makes since in some ways since it would be hard to keep in contact unless units were large.
Click to expand...
Infantry was divided into squads from the start of the war. In the beginning it was a purely administrational division, squad level tactics were not neglected - they were nonexistent. All armies developed small-unit tactics for assault during the war. When the US troops arrived in 1917, the tactics were already quite well developed.
It is however true, that it is very difficult to get any information on low-level organization of infantry units, most available TOEs end at company level, giving only the number of men for the company...
 
Whats up with not reading the gorgeous TO&E I just left a couple posts up the thread, Pietia?

Drawn out of a perfectly good website too :cry:

Oh By the way, If you look hard enough you can find down to the squad, I've been busting my hump trying from 1914 through 1918.

It's not pretty or easy but it can be done.

Well Here Look at these:

Early World War 1 August 1914 through September 1915

Imperial German Army TO&E

Can also be used for the Austrians

Basics for Company Level

Imperial German Army
Infantry Company of the Line 1914 - September 1915

Company HQ
Captain or Leutnant
Armed with P08 Luger (Range 8" Damage: D6-1)
Company Senior NCO
Clerk
4 Runners
Men are armed with Gewehr 98 (Range 20" Damage D6)


2 MG08 Machine Guns (Range 60" Damage 6xD6)

or

MG08/15 Light Machinegun (Range 60" Damage 6xD6)

3 Platoons ( Zugen )

Platoon ( Zug )

Leutnant or Senior NCO
Armed with Gewehr 98 Rifle (Range 20" Damage D6)

4 Sections Each Consisting of 2 Nine Man Squads
Armed with Gewehr 98 Rifle (Range 20" Damage D6)

Soldiers may carry Stick Grenades
Total 72 Men in the Platoon

Obviously, this is " Paper Strength" so we need to make adjustments to make it game-able. ( is that a word?)



An Line Infantry Company of the Army of the Republic of France

HQ Platoon
Capitain Model 1892 (Range 8" Damage: D6)
No more than 12 men including Sergent-Chef, an Orderly and, runners.
Basically the Capt’s personal "flying squad"
Armed with Lebel Rifles (Range 20" Damage D6)

Plus 3 Squads of 10 - 12 men Armed with Lebel Rifles

AND

3 Line Infantry Platoons consisting of :

1 Lieutenant
Armed with Revolver Mdl 1892 (Range 8" Damage: D6)
and
4 squads of 10 - 12 Soldats
Armed with Lebel Rifles (Range 20" Damage D6)

Machine Guns were
Hotchkiss - St.Etienne Mdl 1907 or Puteux-Hotchkiss Mdl 1914 (Range 60" Damage 6xD6)

At this time and up to the French Army’s re-organization in September, 1915; machine guns were issued at Battalion Level with 1 Machine Gun Platoon per Battalion. Machine Gun Platoons were only 2 weapons though so for Les Poilu they are Rare



The British Expeditionary Force 1914

Company

Captain Armed with Webley .45 Cal Service Revolver
(Range 8" Damage: D6+1)


4 Platoons

1 Leftenant Armed with Webley .45 Cal Service Revolver
(Range 8" Damage: D6+1)

4 Squads of 8-10 Men Armed with SMLE Mk III (Range 20" Damage D6)


Vickers Machine Guns were found at one per Battalion.
(Range 60" Damage 6xD6)


The Royal Belgian Army 1914

Infantry Company

Captain
Armed with either Browning Mdl. 1900 in 7.6mm or a Browning Mdl 1903 in 9mm
(Range 8" Damage: D6-1)

2 or 3 Infantry Platoons

Lieutenant
Armed with either Browning Mdl. 1900 in 7.6mm or a Browning Mdl 1903 in 9mm
(Range 8" Damage: D6-1)

4 Squads of 10 Soldiers
Armed with Gewehr 98 Rifle (Range 20" Damage D6)

Like everybody else the Belgian army kept its MG’s at a higher level of organization, in this case

3 German Maxim 08’s at Regiment. (Range 60" Damage 6xD6)

For the Tripod Mounted MG's I believe that should be considered always as being "Ready" hence the 60" Range and 6xD6 Damage Dice thrown and have a Forward Firing Arc of 90 degrees. These things were the scariest damn weapons on the battlefield and I adjusted the stats to reflect their power.

I don't point out stuff well so I can play these as they are and not worry about it too much.

Things get tricky from here on out through to November 1918 as afar as Organizing goes, so bear with me if you are really interested.

If any of you are wondering, I am not a great believer in the 9mm so that got a D6-1 on Damage and I understand that the Webley could knock over someone right quick, maybe I should shorten the range to 6 inches to compensate for that power ?
 
Pietia,

Aha! That's what I get for not thinking!:)

Anyway, have you looked over what I've done? And can you do cards similar to the gorgeous set of of regular evo cards you have on evocommand.

In fact It may be better if we took this thread over to that site.
 
Great stuff.

When I stated the light MGs coundn't keep up, I mean't they couldn't be used on the offensive. The Infantry would outpace them on the attack then You had to set them up. So they would slogg around getting into position after the infantry took a trenchline. And would then be set up to to defend against a quick counter attack. At least that is what I was taught on the subject. The Lewis guns were still quite heavy, but they were half the weight of the earlier weapons. Most Lewis guns found thier way on AirCraft. Still took a 3 man crew to use them.
 
Thank you Pietia!

TOS - The LMG's of which you speak usually just the regular MG's without the water cooling barrel shrouds on them usually mounted with a bipod as opposed to the 50 - 80 pound sledges and/or "movable"
tripods that they originally were issued with, and you are correct in the description you provided of their usage.
 
Hey guys, according to "Real" historians the BAR was never issued to the US troops in France because they Army was afraid it would fall into enemy hands. The lewis was not officially issued because Pershing refused to let the AEF be broken up piecemeal as reinforments for the British Army, so Britain did not let the Amis have the Lewis LMG for political reasons even though a lot of the damn things were being made in the US.....politics never lets War get in its way. :)

So In conclusion, Officially, The US Army or Marines Must used the French Chauchat LMG even if the Frakker jams in most battlefield conditions.

Here are some possible Stats and a Special

Chauchat LMG
Range: 24" Damage: 2xD6

Special:
If the Chauchat gets any 1's on either or both it's dice roll it is jammed!
You must take a Ready action to unjam it and then you may fire again.
A Ready action before shooting gives no benefit.
 
I re-adjusted the Ranges and Damage for the Machine guns to reflect that they were indeed mounted on tripods and positioned to do the most good!

Suppression Dice are Not doubled because the men of this period semmed to retain the fatalism of the Napoleonic Era to an 'Immune to Suppresion' type courage.
 
Even the Lewis guns being made in the US were being made for the the British and thus chambered for the .303" round rather than the US .30". Attempts to modifiy the design proved unreliable because for some reason they abandoned the modifications made to the design for British service and returned to the original design which couldn't reliably handle the characteristics of the US service round.
Plus having already turned the gun down once before the war the US Army ordnance department seemed to have a grudge against it (or more likely its designer).

It was the Germans who used lightened versions of water-cooled machine guns (originally without even removing the water-jacket in the case of the MG08/15), which can't really be classified as LMG's.

I believe that the BAR took over the light automatic role fairly rapidly after the war (due to the dire nature of the Chauchat), but wasn't extensively used during the war itself. Similarly the heavier Browning machine guns weren't produced in large numbers until after the war. So for much of the war the Chauchat and British Vickers (in .30") were the main light and medium machine guns used by the US during WW1.


Nick
 
Its made all the more ironic that the Lewis was an american gun but was never used (except in the air, where all the allied nations used it) by the US Army for anything other than training back in the states.

Also spare a thought for Samuel MacLean who designed it but whose name is mostly forgotten in favour of Colonel Lewis who mearly perfected the design and sold it the Belgians (once the US Army turned it down).

Although MacLean's original design wasn't a LMG, it was water-cooled (with a jacket that looks something like a gas canister) and mounted on a tripod.


Nick
 
Been offline for a while, but I'm looking back at the small amount of BF:Revolution stuff I have and it is based around the Russian civil war.

I was looking at conflicts in the 20s and the 30s (I was looking at splitting them into two distinct periods, the 1920s with the Russian civil war, the Mesopotamian war, the American intervention in China, the 2nd Moroccan war, the Corfu incident, the Bulgarian-Greek war, the American banana wars and the 1930s with the Abyssinian war, the spanish civil war, Plan A - the American invasion of Canada, the Sino-Japanese war and the Chinese civil war).

There is an awful lot of wars in the 1920s and 30s, but because many of them were fairly minor they've been pretty much ignored in gaming terms. However I wanted to go back and fill in the post WWI conflicts using the BF:Evo rules as a base.
If you have a look at the second version of the Red army list I loaded to the Mongoose Mods website it gives you an idea of where I was going, as well as giving some examples of weapons and modifications to the rules to represent different states of morale.
I was originally going to go with 28mm, but it would be hideously expensive to get even a 500 point army (about £60 for Red Army with an FT-17) whereas 20mm gives a very inexspensive alternative if there are plastics covering the period. For the American invasion of Canada that was developed as a plan in the late 20s/early 30s the Emhar doughboys are fine with the only caveat that they use the rubbish French mg, which means finding some lewis gunners and BARs. But that is not insurmountable.
It also means the MkIV/V tanks and the FT-17s everyone uses are dirt cheap as they are available in plastic.

Does this sound like a worthwhile project? If you download the Red list it gives you an idea where I am going. Squad sizes would probably go up on the list though (but the Red and White lists will have incredibly flexible squad sizes anyway, and I think allowing troops to be taken out to represent casualties may well be a very good idea.

Is this something that would interest people?
 
Judging by the numbers of articles in, and themed editions of, the SOTCW** journal covering these minor wars of the early 20th century I'd say there is an awful lot of interest in these!

(** Society of 20th Century Wargamers)
 
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