Inbound System Comms

There was a system that could scan the entire volume of a spherical space half a million km in diameter in 6 minutes?
The Gravity Detection thing needs 1d6 x 10 x (distance in parsecs) for each scan. So, I guess @MarcusIII thinks that 2000s era technology is more advanced than future Traveller technology. He may be right. Traveller tech was created in the 1970s... lol
 
There was a system that could scan the entire volume of a spherical space half a million km in diameter in 6 minutes?
in 2,000 an off the shelf PC system could do it in about 4 hours but the distance being out to Mars from Earth. This will require signal processing of about 150 gigapizels per two hours, and take a terabyte of storage per sweep. Today's system and many times faster so say about 30 minutes.
 
in 2,000 an off the shelf PC system could do it in about 4 hours but the distance being out to Mars from Earth. This will require signal processing of about 150 gigapizels per two hours, and take a terabyte of storage per sweep. Today's system and many times faster so say about 30 minutes.
So you are only considering the data processing aspect which is the easy bit and l agree it would be well within the capability of future systems. I have my doubts about the sensor aspect.
 
in 2,000 an off the shelf PC system ... take a terabyte of storage per sweep.

So it couldn't do it then.

I'm not aware of any off the shelf system that could do that back then. You could probably have upgraded one with that capacity spread over multiple drives but I doubt that even a raid could handle that capacity in one partition under Windows or Mac and anything else would have been even less off the shelf.
 
Obviously, we can't survey the whole solar system in infrared in 30 minutes..

Space agencies are spending zillions on infrared space telescopes and scientists are fighting to get time on them. They would be relieved to know that they can survey the entire solar system in just 30 minutes with one telescope giving solar system research projects all the data they need, leaving the rest of the time for more distant objects.

So, no, this is obviously not true.

If someone were burning a fusion torch, THAT would be quite visible. But we don't have torch ships.

What capabilities future sensors might develop is of course speculation, and the ones in Traveller obviously aren't that formidable. Their detection ranges are tiny. Except for the magical jump detectors.
 
They do break Canon by allowing one gravity sensor to automatically detect all jump activity (except Stealth Jump) within range, usually several parsecs. Does that actually break Canon though? You still are only getting the information at the speed of light. You can detect every jump within a 1 parsec radius, but you won't get that information until over 3 years have passed at a full parsec of distance.
Yes, I do think it does. It's true that the data is light-speed limited and years old when coming from other systems, in-system it means that you'd have realtime (if delayed) data of all starship traffic. And it's not limited to just jump traffic. Per the explanation it detects the gravity disturbance of anything with a large enough gravity field. So along with starships you can detect asteroids and stellar objects. As far as I recall there would be no occlusion detecting objects through larger stellar bodies like planets, gas giants and the system's star. Being able to plot traffic from it's origin to its destination means a huge change for gameplay. Not only the end of stealth, but any kind of "hidden" base or installation. I don't recall if a ship that, for example, was lying doggo within the upper atmosphere of a gas giant would have a separate reading or not.
 
Yes, I do think it does. It's true that the data is light-speed limited and years old when coming from other systems, in-system it means that you'd have realtime (if delayed) data of all starship traffic. And it's not limited to just jump traffic. Per the explanation it detects the gravity disturbance of anything with a large enough gravity field. So along with starships you can detect asteroids and stellar objects. As far as I recall there would be no occlusion detecting objects through larger stellar bodies like planets, gas giants and the system's star. Being able to plot traffic from it's origin to its destination means a huge change for gameplay. Not only the end of stealth, but any kind of "hidden" base or installation. I don't recall if a ship that, for example, was lying doggo within the upper atmosphere of a gas giant would have a separate reading or not.
My guess is that you could conceal the gravity emissions of your ship by concealing it within a larger, more powerful gravity well.

Remember that even within the same hex it can take a signal over a month and a half to reach the detector. Also, comet-sized objects, which are likely larger than starships have a max autodetection range of 1/10 of a parsec. So, you could detect every ship within your parsec with a roll of 15+ and 10-60 minutes of work. Stealth is included in the rules by giving them a negative penalty to their sensor checks. Combine Stealth with Stealth Jump and that changes things a lot, but you don't see many stealth warships in Traveller due to the high cost per ton, up to 1MCr/ton of ship.

A densitometer can find a hidden base with Deep Penetration scanners, but not with much else. A gravity detection suite alone won't do it.
 
Passive IR can nail any ship in system easily. Unless it's hiding behind a body in relation to the sensor. Basic physics. It's like starting a bonfire on a totally dark plain at night. You're detected as soon as the light hits the sensor. Period
This is somewhat of a strawman argument. Passive sensors ability to detect anything falls off with the square of the distance from the obiect to the sensor. And space is really, really big. So if you aren't emitting a lot of heat you simply won't be detected. Now that depends also on just how big and sensitive your sensor is - if your sensor area was say 1x1 km, sure you'd have more sensitivity deeper into space. At a point you simply don't emit enough heat to be detected at a distance. Just how far that distance is varies based upon multiple factors.

Also, some argue that you can't 'cheat' the 2nd law of thermodynamics and converting heat into useful energy that you could then, potentially, use to either power your ship (not totally... that's a bigtime cheat) or else convert into say an x-ray emission and beam into deep space. We already know RTG's work in deep space from the ones we've built on space probes. Just how much heat energy can be converted into useful electrical energy (and how much you'd still lose as radiant heat) is unknown because a) we've never done it to deliberately attempt to control heat emssions, and b) we don't' have access to all the cool materials and tech of the 52nd century.

However we do know, today, that we can do all kinds of interesting things to spoof sensors. Throughout history we have learned to detect, and then to defeat said detection (or at least to make it so that the data you get back is very degraded and not always useful for targetting - you may know something MAY be out there.. .just not much more than that).

Human ingenuity being what it is, I'm sure that someone, somewhere, will figure out ways around these sorts of things to keep the battle between detection/non-detection going strong.
 
My guess is that you could conceal the gravity emissions of your ship by concealing it within a larger, more powerful gravity well.

Remember that even within the same hex it can take a signal over a month and a half to reach the detector. Also, comet-sized objects, which are likely larger than starships have a max autodetection range of 1/10 of a parsec. So, you could detect every ship within your parsec with a roll of 15+ and 10-60 minutes of work. Stealth is included in the rules by giving them a negative penalty to their sensor checks. Combine Stealth with Stealth Jump and that changes things a lot, but you don't see many stealth warships in Traveller due to the high cost per ton, up to 1MCr/ton of ship.

A densitometer can find a hidden base with Deep Penetration scanners, but not with much else. A gravity detection suite alone won't do it.
Perhaps. One would think that if it uses gravitic disturbances to detect things, there would be a distance at which a more massive object would simply radiate too much gravitic distortion to allow for identification of smaller objects within its area of distortion. Suns would have the largest, then gas giants, planets, moons, etc. Maybe you could use the same 100D rule for such a thing.

Densitometer would have to know where to look first, but if you had one and were giving something the once-over then you'd know what you were looking at. I still wonder why you could not spoof a deensitometer if it uses emissions to sense. Active sensors can be spoofed if you know how they work and can play with the return emissions. It's always a game between scanner / scanee.
 
This is somewhat of a strawman argument. Passive sensors ability to detect anything falls off with the square of the distance from the obiect to the sensor. And space is really, really big. So if you aren't emitting a lot of heat you simply won't be detected. Now that depends also on just how big and sensitive your sensor is - if your sensor area was say 1x1 km, sure you'd have more sensitivity deeper into space. At a point you simply don't emit enough heat to be detected at a distance. Just how far that distance is varies based upon multiple factors.

Also, some argue that you can't 'cheat' the 2nd law of thermodynamics and converting heat into useful energy that you could then, potentially, use to either power your ship (not totally... that's a bigtime cheat) or else convert into say an x-ray emission and beam into deep space. We already know RTG's work in deep space from the ones we've built on space probes. Just how much heat energy can be converted into useful electrical energy (and how much you'd still lose as radiant heat) is unknown because a) we've never done it to deliberately attempt to control heat emssions, and b) we don't' have access to all the cool materials and tech of the 52nd century.

However we do know, today, that we can do all kinds of interesting things to spoof sensors. Throughout history we have learned to detect, and then to defeat said detection (or at least to make it so that the data you get back is very degraded and not always useful for targetting - you may know something MAY be out there.. .just not much more than that).

Human ingenuity being what it is, I'm sure that someone, somewhere, will figure out ways around these sorts of things to keep the battle between detection/non-detection going strong.
Yeah. What happens when the IR emission is smaller than a pixel on the screen you are viewing it on? Eventually, no matter how powerful of an emission something has, with enough distance, it cannot be detected.
 
Perhaps. One would think that if it uses gravitic disturbances to detect things, there would be a distance at which a more massive object would simply radiate too much gravitic distortion to allow for identification of smaller objects within its area of distortion. Suns would have the largest, then gas giants, planets, moons, etc. Maybe you could use the same 100D rule for such a thing.

Densitometer would have to know where to look first, but if you had one and were giving something the once-over then you'd know what you were looking at. I still wonder why you could not spoof a deensitometer if it uses emissions to sense. Active sensors can be spoofed if you know how they work and can play with the return emissions. It's always a game between scanner / scanee.
The books say that you can spoof a densitometer.

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Yeah. What happens when the IR emission is smaller than a pixel on the screen you are viewing it on? Eventually, no matter how powerful of an emission something has, with enough distance, it cannot be detected.
Once in a place far, far away (Falkland Islands) I was on duty and bored. I looked at the RADAR screen and saw a blip a long way off. So I zoomed in on the blip and measured the trace.

Turns out the plot extractor (the software which determined whether a RADAR return was noise or real) expanded the trace to about 1/4 mile long to make the trace visible on a display.
 
The delay makes things much more difficult. You may detect a jump entry a long way out, but if the signal takes 30 minutes to reach you then the ship will be 30 minutes away at that point. If it is normal traffic it might head straight to the main world, but even a perfectly legal vessel might choose to have a slightly different course as pirates can be just as capable of plotting obvious courses as customs vessels.

You can't track a ship from its emergence point to it's new location unless you have a different sort of sensor that operates out to that range. The only sensors that operate out to even 100D ranges are thermal and active radar, but if the ship uses burn and coast it can translate it's position without emitting any thermal signature of any significance. You need to know broadly where it is for active radar and of course any active sensor is going to take twice as long to reach you.

Any thermal sensor is most likely going to have to be space based (or there will be too much interference). I am not sure how big a pixel sized area is out at those ranges. It certainly isn't going to be telling you anything about the source of that heat source. Simply deploying flares may be enough to mask your final position.
 
I’m trying to not let the physics get in the way of a good story :)

Thanks for all the contributions to this thread, I am enjoying the conversation
While I am all about a good story, if a good story can't be told within the rules (physics), perhaps it shouldn't be told or perhaps the rules (physics) need to change to allow for telling different stories. Changing the rules for the purposes of "story" almost always leads to unintended consequences. Why? Because when you change a rule to tell a story you have an extremely narrow focus on the story you want to tell and usually give no thought to the wider effects of said rule change. It is why all of the adventures and campaigns that I write, follow the rules. Most of my players are extremely good at taking any rules that I change and then turning them back on me at a later date. So, I learned my lesson on that one. lol
 
The delay makes things much more difficult. You may detect a jump entry a long way out, but if the signal takes 30 minutes to reach you then the ship will be 30 minutes away at that point. If it is normal traffic it might head straight to the main world, but even a perfectly legal vessel might choose to have a slightly different course as pirates can be just as capable of plotting obvious courses as customs vessels.
Agreed.
You can't track a ship from its emergence point to it's new location unless you have a different sort of sensor that operates out to that range. The only sensors that operate out to even 100D ranges are thermal and active radar, but if the ship uses burn and coast it can translate it's position without emitting any thermal signature of any significance. You need to know broadly where it is for active radar and of course any active sensor is going to take twice as long to reach you.
Gavity Detection Suites have enough range and are passive and can detect things as small as comets automatically at 3,000,000,000,000km. That is trillion with a T. You are still going to have the lightspeed delay though.
 
The delay makes things much more difficult. You may detect a jump entry a long way out, but if the signal takes 30 minutes to reach you then the ship will be 30 minutes away at that point. If it is normal traffic it might head straight to the main world, but even a perfectly legal vessel might choose to have a slightly different course as pirates can be just as capable of plotting obvious courses as customs vessels.

You can't track a ship from its emergence point to it's new location unless you have a different sort of sensor that operates out to that range. The only sensors that operate out to even 100D ranges are thermal and active radar, but if the ship uses burn and coast it can translate it's position without emitting any thermal signature of any significance. You need to know broadly where it is for active radar and of course any active sensor is going to take twice as long to reach you.

Any thermal sensor is most likely going to have to be space based (or there will be too much interference). I am not sure how big a pixel sized area is out at those ranges. It certainly isn't going to be telling you anything about the source of that heat source. Simply deploying flares may be enough to mask your final position.
I'd have to go pull the PDF to verify, but from what I recall it's more than just emergence. It will track the ship from the time it arrives till it leaves (only reappearing on sensors 3years later 1 parsec away). So any object in a system would show up on the sensors, moving or not, starship or not. Just mass.
 
in 2,000 an off the shelf PC system could do it in about 4 hours but the distance being out to Mars from Earth. This will require signal processing of about 150 gigapizels per two hours, and take a terabyte of storage per sweep. Today's system and many times faster so say about 30 minutes.
So Mars to Earth at its closest is 55 million km. The surface area of the sphere of that radius is over 38 peta kilometers squared (excuse the compound prefix). If that was represented by 300 giga pixels then each pixel covered an area of over 125,000 square km. That is quite an area to lose a ship in. The volume that cone would represent is huge and the ship could be anywhere in there since you have no mechanism to triangulate.

Seems a lot.
 
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