Improving Characteristics

[hdan]

Classic Traveller had characteristic increases in play. Ergo, characteristic increases are, in fact, part of the Traveller tradition from which Mongoose Traveller is derived.

First I've heard of this.

Yessir, pages 42-43 of Book 2, heading Experience.

Jed's got it exactly right. There were some modifiers to the calisthenics program to make it harder to stick with it if you had high Intelligence and such. The rules do suggest that there should exist "scifi" ways to improve, like cybernetics or gene therapies. And of course there were a host of drugs that could temporarily boost various stats.

In my games back in school, we dispensed with the dedication roll and let each player choose one course of self-improvement at the start of the campaign. In reality it was just a way for the player to exert a small amount of control over their randomly generated characters. I don't think we ever played an in-game campaign long enough to reach the 4 year mark.

MgT has the physical stats covered with gaining new levels in Athletics, at least for skill testing purposes, though not for personal damage resilience. I see no reason not to imagine skills like Logic, which adds to Int checks, or Knowledge, which adds to Education checks. Players would gain these the same as they do other skills.

 

[Infojunky]

Reading the suggestion I think a mechanic similar to the skill improvement one might work for the Physical and mental Attributes. In that training to increase an attribute would use the same as for a skill except using the Attribute score in place of the Skill total (Though the thought occurs Skill Total plus the Attribute score might be an more appropriate base).

 

[CosmicGamer]

I think a mechanic similar to the skill improvement one might work for the Physical and mental Attributes. In that training to increase an attribute would use the same as for a skill except using the Attribute score in place of the Skill total

Think a little bit about what you want out of the game mechanic. Balance. Making heroic characters. Realism. This may very well differ from one person to another.

Do you want character balancing?
For example, I think this is a design aspect of learning new skills. The more you know the harder to learn new skills. The mechanic (from the core rules) is independent of Int and Edu.

This helps those with less skills catch up with other characters with more.
This prevents a character with high characteristics from zooming ahead, gaining skills much faster than the other characters.

A mechanic for Physical and mental attributes based on a similar method of adding them up to determine time required would also tend toward character balancing. Characters with lower characteristics gaining characteristic improvements faster than those born more gifted.

Just pointing out what could be an unrealistic game mechanic because some folk seam to specify the reason for having such a mechanic is realism.

On the realism side, issues include
1) How to handle physical vs mental improvement - the realism of ones physical characteristics being a large part of the mechanic for mental improvement - and the opposite. I suggest somehow making the specific characteristic being improved be a larger portion of the mechanic than other characteristics because I'm not even sure why STR would effect INT training. END may be a factor, restricting how long one can train without tiring.

2) How to handle aging characters - is there a point at which one shouldn't be able to keep improving their physical characteristics? I suggest a mechanic where age is somehow added in to the equation to determine improvement.

3) How to handle a realistic limit to abilities - Bodies and minds are different and people do have limits. Not everyone can be a pro athlete, no matter how hard they try. Not everyone can bend spoons with their mind (increasing psionics) or practice and learn to multiply a dozen 10 digit numbers in their heads (without augmentations). Would someone with a 2 characteristic be able to improve it all the way to a 15 (or whatever the racial limit is). I suggest a mechanic where one can not improve beyond a certain amount over their starting characteristics - perhaps this matters more for some characteristics than others.

4) How does one handle a mechanic for losing characteristics - For example, if working out can improve ones STR and DEX, will being at a desk job and spending all ones free time studying to improve skills (or mental characteristics) make them go down? Like I stated earlier in this thread, if you are looking for realistic characteristic improvement, in real life there is usually a balance and one can loose characteristics too.

5) How to handle maintaining ones elevated characteristics - How permanent is an improvement? Someone that works out their brain and especially the body and improves typically needs to maintain a certain level of activity or they start to slip back to their norms.

Nerhesi mentioned improving strength and feeling it was permanent. I mean no offense, but consider the following and I'd like to hear your comments. Someone might have a lifestyle where they become out of shape and fell below their "body normal" physique so training would bring them back to their "body normal", making the change more permanent with a "average" life style than say an athlete that was already fit working 20+ hours a week to train for competition then not working out during the off season. They lose their edge and have to again work out 20+ hours a week to train for the next years competition.

6) How does one handle the Social characteristic - Should it improved via a mechanic? Should it be added in with other characteristics for the mechanic to determine their improvement? You all should know I am already not pro to a mechanic for improving the characteristics, I'm willing to brain storm on one; but I feel Social level is best to be still done as a role playing/GM modification and not with a mechanic.

7) How does one handle the Psionic characteristic - Can it be improved? Does it use the same mechanics? Is it used in the mechanics for improving other characteristics?

 

[Jame Rowe]

I think that there should be a way, in MGT, for a PC to increase attributes.

There's that word "should" again.

Just say, "In my games, I use this rule: Blah blah"

Now, I would like to point out that I did also say "this is a good place to drop the entire subject for not only me but also for you." You seem to have ignored that. NOW! I shall try again.

This is a good place for you to drop the subject first, so that your having already dropped the subject will then give me the ability to drop it second.

In my opinion, Mongoose should have a rule to improve characteristics after character creation, in the same vein that GDW included such a rule. It can be completely optional, of course, so that those who do not want to use it do not have to, but it should be there for GMs who want to use it can.

When I have more income I think I'll take a closer look at GKG. Sounds quite interesting.

 

[Anonymous]

A year or so ago I had a house rule in beta for characteristic improvement:

Physical stats, strength, dexterity and endurance have potentials, after rolling your stats roll 2d6 for each physical stat and compare to this table:

roll 2-8 0
9-11 +1
12 +2

Results of 0 means you are at your potential.

You may increase each attribute to its potential one point at a time as you would a skill. The time to do this is the sum of the attributes (at the level you're moving up to)

You must dedicate a number of hours per week equal to the potential you're trying to achieve.

For example, with a str, dex end of 777 and a potential of 888, Joe Blogs could choose to improve his strength, it would take him 22 weeks to do (7+7+8). Over the course of the 22 weeks he would need to be dedicating 8 hours per week

I was thinking of making the assistance of a personal trainer with the relevant instruction skill and facility a prerequisite but may also have the player roll some kind "will power" task, details to be announced...

Potentials are to be rolled at the time of chargen with any chargen attribute improvements subject to the limit of the characters potential.

The logic behind this was that thru exercise a character can improve their physical fitness. Athletics skill is another way of doing this and is already part of the game for those who don't like to house rule but I like for players to be able to improve in game without going the whole hog of a level system and I prefer to treat physical attributes as separate from a skill. I also prefer characters who aren't old age pensioners...

:mrgreen:

 

[Tom Kalbfus]

Strange that it isn't covered.

We're talking about characters that are often in the age range that they have to make saving rolls to avoid aging penalties to characteristics. Deciding not to have middle aged folk improve their base physical characteristics as they continue to age doesn't seam strange to me.

If you had mechanics where characters can keep improving stats like some other role playing games, the typical 60 year old guy would be all maxed out strength and dex and much more physically fit than younger folk.

"Don't worry sonny, just keep working out and one day you'll get old and strong like me."

Why not? this is the future, why shouldn't a 60 year old be able to max out his stats? Why shouldn't a 180-year old? There are science fiction settings where people don't grow old and die naturally. Decline with old age may simply be because of our imperfect understanding of medicine. Larry Niven's Known Space setting is one such setting, people die of random accidents but not by natural decline due to old age, as they found a cure for that.

 

[CosmicGamer]

Strange that it isn't covered.

We're talking about characters that are often in the age range that they have to make saving rolls to avoid aging penalties to characteristics. Deciding not to have middle aged folk improve their base physical characteristics as they continue to age doesn't seam strange to me.

If you had mechanics where characters can keep improving stats like some other role playing games, the typical 60 year old guy would be all maxed out strength and dex and much more physically fit than younger folk.

"Don't worry sonny, just keep working out and one day you'll get old and strong like me."

Why not? this is the future, why shouldn't a 60 year old be able to max out his stats? Why shouldn't a 180-year old? There are science fiction settings where people don't grow old and die naturally. Decline with old age may simply be because of our imperfect understanding of medicine. Larry Niven's Known Space setting is one such setting, people die of random accidents but not by natural decline due to old age, as they found a cure for that.

But this isn't a setting thing. It's part of the core rules mechanics that people can age and deteriorate due to aging starting at 34yo.

So while you are free to play the game the way you want, and I'll even help you with the house rules for such, I was simply explaining why for the rules as written it wasn't a complete brain fart for characteristic improvement not to be covered.

 

[Anonymous]

adapting the philosophy above would require more changes to the core rules than I thought the OP was intending.

CG, could you expand on this please?

 

[dragoner]

Biological characteristic enhancements, from supplement 8. 8)

 

[Anonymous]

Hahaha

It's amusing how the Supplements can sometimes contradict the CRB.

But we're back to that old forum whirlpool and I'm not going there!

 

[CosmicGamer]

adapting the philosophy above would require more changes to the core rules than I thought the OP was intending.

CG, could you expand on this please?

Response in a new thread. http://forum.mongoosepublishing.com/viewtopic.php?f=89&t=72063

 

[dragoner]

Hahaha

It's amusing how the Supplements can sometimes contradict the CRB.

But we're back to that old forum whirlpool and I'm not going there!

Yeah, personally it doesn't break any real verisimilitude for me, so I don't care, plus it gives the players something to work towards.

 

[Anonymous]

I'll respond in the thread you just started to keep this one on topic