Imperial Charter?

[MasterGwydion]

Well, there is a reason why I keep insisting on a 'style guide' for Traveller...

Look, way back in the LBBs 'the Imperium' was whatever you made it. It was as corrupt or fascist or venal or lazy as the story called for. But then, back then almost every adventure was the PCs committing an illegal raid against some facility... INCLUDING AN IMPERIAL PRISON HULK

As Traveller has grown older more details were filled out. The assassination of Strephon told us more about How The Imperium Really Worked than any other source. And from there the follow-on authors took the ball and ran with it. With so many spoons in the soup, it's no wonder that things have continuity issues. And these things happen even with IPs that have a continuity czar from step one... just look at how much sturm und drang Star Wars has gone through even before Lucas told that toxic fan base to piss off and sold them out to Disney.

I think my take on the Imperial Charter is a good one for my game. It might work for your game too.

But My TU reflects a 'Grey Imperium' that is not the 'good guys' [they CERTAINLY don't suffer from the US' desperate need to wear the white hat] and not the 'bad guys'. My version of the Imperium acts for the good of the Imperium and is utterly unapologetic about it. It tries to act for the benefit of all 11,000 worlds but it realizes that acting for the good of the high pop /high tech 'islands of civilization' is the best way to provide the most benefits to the most citizens. Sometimes that means that worlds like Aramis/Aramis get eff'd over for the 'greater good'. My Imperium is one of Bismark-like 'realpolitik', where the power structure rules with as light a hand as it can but with as iron a fist as it has to. And my version of Emperor Strephon loses precisely zero sleep over that unfortunate fact of life.

You have more detail now about that the Third Imperium is and is not than ever before, Gwyd. You have as much information about the Traveller Third Imperium setting as the authors of the FASA Star Trek had about their setting in 1982. Let that one sink in.

I mean absolutely no disrespect to you when I say that you can just as easily pick a sector with the bare minimum of details... Fulani Sector for example [a full three sectors Spinward from the nearest Imperial possession] and put together a setting and government that makes more sense to you. Traveller is not the Third Imperium. The Third Imperium is a part, but just a part, of Traveller.

Did you miss the other posts I have made on this forum about how Traveller is a ruleset and not a setting? Charted Space is an official Mongoose setting. Yes, I understand that at my table, I can do whatever I want, same as you at your table, but somehow you have managed to totally miss the point.

The point is, why have an "officially published setting" at all if they are not going to flesh it out? Why not just make everyone create their own universes? More detailed settings = more setting books = more money for Mongoose. Players who want things more general can either ignore the settingbooks or make up their own setting. No problem, but people who want things more filled out are left in the cold with no option but to build it for themselves. So, your method only helps people who want to game like you. My method takes care of both since written material can be Rule 0ed as always, but you can't ignore setting information that doesn't exist. I want it to exist. You don't. If Mongoose wrote it, you could simply not buy it since that is not YTU. I could buy it and use it and then we both get what we need. Both styles of play can be supported by having a detailed setting, but only your method is supposed by not having one.

 

[ottarrus]

Did you miss the other posts I have made on this forum about how Traveller is a ruleset and not a setting? Charted Space is an official Mongoose setting. Yes, I understand that at my table, I can do whatever I want, same as you at your table, but somehow you have managed to totally miss the point.

The point is, why have an "officially published setting" at all if they are not going to flesh it out? Why not just make everyone create their own universes? More detailed settings = more setting books = more money for Mongoose. Players who want things more general can either ignore the settingbooks or make up their own setting. No problem, but people who want things more filled out are left in the cold with no option but to build it for themselves. So, your method only helps people who want to game like you. My method takes care of both since written material can be Rule 0ed as always, but you can't ignore setting information that doesn't exist. I want it to exist. You don't. If Mongoose wrote it, you could simply not buy it since that is not YTU. I could buy it and use it and then we both get what we need. Both styles of play can be supported by having a detailed setting, but only your method is supposed by not having one.

Let me be clearer... sometimes I get too hooked on an idea and I don't fully describe the whole concept.

The Third Imperium has been growing as a setting literally since Adv 1: Kinunir. We currently have the most information about the Third Imperium that we've ever had... especially if you look at the GURPS: Traveller material. I recommend that, btw. There's a lot of good writing in that series. There's dumb stuff too, but overall a fair bit of IMTU's Third Imperium stems from ideas presented in GT.

Something else to consider: Mongoose hasn't had control of the OTU IP for a full year yet. They're only just beginning to put their spin on the property. I'm pretty convinced that the post 5FW Imperium of Mongoose is gonna look a whole lot different than GDW's. But we have to wait and see.

In any event, Mongoose IS fleshing out the OTU and the Third Imperium. The Third Imperium sourcebook is rich in detail... yes, with some old material, but with a Hell of a lot of new material as well. And I appreciate the work that Mongoose is doing to rectify the continuity between all the Traveller editions, especially the T4 'Foundation of the Empire' series and the 'present' of 1108.

What you want, Gwyd, is in the process of happening. And you can even be part of it happening. If you have clear ideas about the Imperial Charter or anything else, write an article about it for the next round JTAS volumes. I for one would be very interested in seeing what you have to say all spelled out and without a whole bunch 'yeah, but' on the forums [yes, I know... Guilty as charged, yer honner ]

 

[MasterGwydion]

Let me be clearer... sometimes I get too hooked on an idea and I don't fully describe the whole concept.

The Third Imperium has been growing as a setting literally since Adv 1: Kinunir. We currently have the most information about the Third Imperium that we've ever had... especially if you look at the GURPS: Traveller material. I recommend that, btw. There's a lot of good writing in that series. There's dumb stuff too, but overall a fair bit of IMTU's Third Imperium stems from ideas presented in GT.

Something else to consider: Mongoose hasn't had control of the OTU IP for a full year yet. They're only just beginning to put their spin on the property. I'm pretty convinced that the post 5FW Imperium of Mongoose is gonna look a whole lot different than GDW's. But we have to wait and see.

These are all valid points and I agree with them. Let's see what happens. I am discouraged though by @MongooseMatt statements on other threads that they have no interest in further defining or refining the systems in Traveller, such as UWPs, or even telling us what an Imperial Charter is.

In any event, Mongoose IS fleshing out the OTU and the Third Imperium. The Third Imperium sourcebook is rich in detail... yes, with some old material, but with a Hell of a lot of new material as well. And I appreciate the work that Mongoose is doing to rectify the continuity between all the Traveller editions, especially the T4 'Foundation of the Empire' series and the 'present' of 1108.

With this FFW stuff that Mongoose published and the current discussion on other threads about the disaster Mongoose made of declaring the Third Imperium Army to be TL-12, but they fight like they were TL-15.

What you want, Gwyd, is in the process of happening. And you can even be part of it happening. If you have clear ideas about the Imperial Charter or anything else, write an article about it for the next round JTAS volumes. I for one would be very interested in seeing what you have to say all spelled out and without a whole bunch 'yeah, but' on the forums [yes, I know... Guilty as charged, yer honner ]

I wish I knew what an Imperial Charter was. I am not a good writer, but I could write something if I at least understood Mongoose's intent with it, but I don't. It seems to be used very specifically and very generally with no guidance about what is what or which is which. That is kind of why game design is a collaborative effort. I can't just make something up until I know if it fits in with the overall vision of Charted Space and doesn't violate other things that have already been written. Sadly, I am not well-enough studied in Traveller lore, to know everything, to be able to write stuff with no collaboration, but I do like to read and learn more.

 

[Condottiere]

Subject: Charter granted by Richard I to Northampton
Original source: Copy in borough archives
Transcription in: Christopher Markham, ed. The Records of the Borough of Northampton, (Northampton, 1898), vol.1, 25-26.
Original language: Latin
Location: Northampton
Date: 1189


TRANSLATION
Richard, by the grace of God King of England, Duke of Normandy [and] Aquitaine, Count of Anjou, to his archbishops, bishops, abbots, earls, barons, justices, sheriffs, and all officers and loyal subjects, French and English, greetings. Know that we have granted to our burgesses of Northampton that none of them – except our officers and money-minters – need answer any plea [introduced in any court] outside the walls of the borough of Northampton, except pleas concerning lands held outside [the town]. We have granted to them freedom from murdrum within the borough and in the portsoken, that none of them need undertake [trial by] battle, that in pleas within the jurisdiction of the Crown they may defend themselves according to the custom of the city of London, and that within the walls of the town no-one may take lodging by force or through command of the Marshal. We have also granted this: that all burgesses of Northampton are exempt from toll and lastage throughout England and the seaports. And that none of them receive judgement of [paying] an amercement except as determined by the law which our citizens of London have. Miskenning is not to be [applicable] in any plea [tried] in the borough. And that a husting may be held once a week; and that they have a legal right to their lands and tenures and to their pledges and debts, regardless of who is answerable to them [for the same]. With regard to those lands and tenures that are within the borough, justice shall be done to them according to the [legal] customs of the borough; and for all debts incurred or pledges made at Northampton, the pleas shall be held in Northampton. If anyone anywhere in England takes toll or custom from Northampton men and afterwards fails to rectify this, the reeve of Northampton may take retribution for the same at Northampton. Furthermore, to improve things in the borough, we have granted that they are exempt from brudtol, childwite, heresgive and scot-ale; the reeve of Northampton, nor any other bailiff, may not make any scotale. These aforementioned customs we have granted them along with all other liberties and free customs which our citizens of London had or have, when they had them best or most freely according to the liberties of London and laws of the borough of Northampton. It is our will and firm command that they and their heirs have and hold all these aforesaid things hereditarily of us and our heirs, in return for £120 by tale from the town of Northampton and all its appurtenances [i.e. the portsoken], paid at our Exchequer at Michaelmas term by the hands of the reeve of Northampton. The burgesses of Northampton may appoint as reeve for the year whomever they want from among themselves, so long as he is suitable to us and them. Witnesses: Hugh bishop of Durham, John bishop of Norwich, Hubert bishop of Salisbury, Earl Alber', William earl of Arundel, Richard earl of Clare, Hamelin earl of Warenne, Walter fitz Rodbert. Given at [Bury] St. Edmunds on 18 November 1189, by the hands of our Chancellor, William bishop Elect of Ely.

 

[Sigtrygg]

And has nothing what so ever to do with what Cleon enforced in order to grow his Imperium.

At least it is better than the T4 fanon/canon authors thinking the US constitution was a good starting point...

 

[Condottiere]

Charters are grants, and clearly list out what you get, in exchange for consideration, presumably, in perpetuity.

 

[ottarrus]

A charter details an exchange between two legal entities... sovereign and town, monastery and bishop, town and guild, etc. It lists everything the exchange includes, property, rights, privileges and duties, taxes, and liabilities. In the US we would call it a contract, but in Europe there is a connotation of medieval nobility to the term. In both cases 'charter' implies an agreement between the government or sovereign and another legal entity... a college, town, diocese, other nobles etc.

Ergo, the Imperial Charter could very well be two separate but related things:
1. It is a clause in the Warrant for the Restoration defining the zone of interests between the Third Imperium and its member worlds. Imperial interests are these and planetary interests are those.
2. The specific Charter between a specific world and the Third Imperium. Not only the world's rights and responsibilities but also under whose authority the world falls under [which county or duchy the world falls under]. And by 'specific' I mean VERY specific. For example:
- The specific navigational coordinates of a world's sole sovereignty, the specific zone of shared jurisdiction, the specific coords of sole Imperial jurisdiction.
- How much the world owes the Imperium in taxes
- Specific benefits the world receives in exchange for those taxes
- What does the world owe in regards to Imperial Army recruitment
And so on... The Planetary Charter would list every single ticky-tack legal detail of the world's membership in the Third Imperium.

It's also logical to presume that the Second Survey took so freaking long because changes in 11,000 worlds' populations, governments, law levels and tech levels significantly altered the codicils of each world's Charter [taxes, Army recruiting, readjusting county and ducal fiefs etc.]. Eleven thousand new official Charters would take a fair bit of work to generate on Capital....

 

[HalC]

For what it is worth - based not just on prior content, but also T5.10...

Moot membership requires that the world have at minimum, an Imperial Noble assigned to it that votes at the Moot. Note that the world governments themselves do not vote at the moot itself, but the nobility of the world itself.

As a consequence of this, I did a check to see what is the lowest population value required before a world generally gets a Baron or higher assigned to it. Because of this, I've evolved the mindset for my Traveller Universe, where there are Moot Member worlds, and non-moot member worlds. For ease of identification, I treat worlds without Imperial Nobility as "Protectorates". From there, I reasoned that the Ministry of Colonization holds jurisdiction over certain worlds, and the Ministry of Conservation holds jurisdiction over "resource harvesting" worlds. Thus, a mining based world would come under the Ministry of Conservation, while another world that is non-corporate governed, is likely governed by the Ministry of Colonization.

I had posted in other forums "What happens if a world with a pop value of 4, is further colonized by another group whose numbers colony ships transported 20,000 people all at once? Who actually governs the world - the original holder with a pop of 4, or the newly arrived colony ships with a pop of 5? In my above scenario, one could consider this world being administered by two ministries - one for resources, and one for colonization. Now for the bad news. If you have an original charter for colonization for the first group of say, 4,000 people, and they are overwhelmed by a new colonization attempt with 20,000 people - the question rears its ugly head "who has the right to become the world government?"

Which is why I would suggest that the Ministry of Colonization would simply step in saying "this world is a registered colony, your attempt to claim jump is disallowed, and you need to leave the world - failure to do so will invoke an Imperial Intervention.

Ultimately? How the Third Imperium "Government" governs, is up to the GM. But for an "official" world setting, that Third Imperium needs to have a strong unifying culture or it is simply a "Confederacy" of worlds. There has to be some reason for the existence of the Imperial Nobility - and as human nature has shown us repeatedly in history, ruling classes tend to be jealous of their power, or covet gaining more power, or both. Something keeps the Imperials in check, so they don't become the dark forces of history, so some lip service has to be paid for noble responsibilities to balance the benefits of nobility. This kind of detail is largely lacking in anything ever put forth in published material.

As for Marc Miller's Agent of the Imperium - I was immediately struck by one very specific thing - the Imperium of his story has the power to destroy entire worlds at the drop of a hat. No warning, no petitioning the Moot, just decisive destruction for the benefit of the worlds. If you haven't read the book, I suggest you go looking for it and read it. it is something of an eye opener...

 

[ottarrus]

As for Marc Miller's Agent of the Imperium - I was immediately struck by one very specific thing - the Imperium of his story has the power to destroy entire worlds at the drop of a hat. No warning, no petitioning the Moot, just decisive destruction for the benefit of the worlds. If you haven't read the book, I suggest you go looking for it and read it. it is something of an eye opener...

I kinda want to address this paragraph. While it is true that the Imperium can 'scrub' a world, the bar for that is incredibly high. For an Agent to intentionally scrub a world that world would have to be an exigent threat to the entire Imperium and every single sophont within J-6.
The scrubbing of Deyis/Zarushagar is a case in point... The world had a parasite that infected everyone it contacted [it had jumped from the native species to Humaniti], it made victims happy and content while it fed on them and eventually killed them. There was no treatment, no cure. And every single sophont who contacted an infected victim was another potential victim. Scrubbing was called for.

Yet there were other worlds in the book where alternate, often difficult, solutions were found and the world was not scrubbed.

Here is my point: Every single bearer of an Unlimited Imperial Warrant has the precise same powers. In previous editions Duke Norris of Regina 'finds' an Imperial Warrant and uses it to take command of all Imperial forces in the 5FW. A major battle is fought at Zivije /Spinward Marches, about J-5 from Rhylanor /Spinward Marches, a key Imperial world for the entire sector. Had the Zhodani taken that world in that instance, Duke Norris could, theoretically, assemble a force and scrub the world to prevent the Zhos from fortifying it. An extreme decision certainly, but entirely within his rights as an Imperial Warrant holder. Anyone who obeyed Norris in this case is legally absolved of any responsibility.

Of course, every use of an Imperial Warrant, even by Agent wafers, is reviewed. And the misuse of an Imperial Warrant is a capital crime that would stain a living noble's family name forever. Naturally an Agent program is not liable for such penalties, but such misuse would probably result in that agent personality being discarded as faulty... 'death' of a sort.

All this leads us to the conclusion and my second point:
Unlimited Imperial Warrants are issued only in the gravest emergency and only to personnel who have earned the greatest trust. And there have been very, very few Unlimited Imperial Warrants issued in the history of the Imperium. Admiral Baroness Adair of Sol was given a Limited Warrant whose jurisdiction was limited to Solomani Rim War front. Her conduct and decisions [and certainly her victories] impressed Emperor Gavin so much that he raised her family to the Archduchy of Sol. But had Operation Prodigal Son [the invasion of Terra] failed, she might very well have been ignominiously fired and replaced.

Such are the stakes when you're playing that card game. No Imperial noble can fail at the strategic level to that extent without repercussions. It may not look like it to the common folk, but at this level one bad decision can scuttle generations worth of work, faith, and loyal service. Just ask the Humboldts of Deneb.

 

[MasterGwydion]

I kinda want to address this paragraph. While it is true that the Imperium can 'scrub' a world, the bar for that is incredibly high. For an Agent to intentionally scrub a world that world would have to be an exigent threat to the entire Imperium and every single sophont within J-6.
The scrubbing of Deyis/Zarushagar is a case in point... The world had a parasite that infected everyone it contacted [it had jumped from the native species to Humaniti], it made victims happy and content while it fed on them and eventually killed them. There was no treatment, no cure. And every single sophont who contacted an infected victim was another potential victim. Scrubbing was called for.

Yet there were other worlds in the book where alternate, often difficult, solutions were found and the world was not scrubbed.

Here is my point: Every single bearer of an Unlimited Imperial Warrant has the precise same powers. In previous editions Duke Norris of Regina 'finds' an Imperial Warrant and uses it to take command of all Imperial forces in the 5FW. A major battle is fought at Zivije /Spinward Marches, about J-5 from Rhylanor /Spinward Marches, a key Imperial world for the entire sector. Had the Zhodani taken that world in that instance, Duke Norris could, theoretically, assembled a force and scrubbed the world to prevent the Zhos from fortifying it. An extreme decision certainly, but entirely within his rights as an Imperial Warrant holder. Anyone who obeyed Norris in this case is legally absolved of any responsibility.

Of course, every use of an Imperial Warrant, even by Agent wafers, is reviewed. And the misuse of an Imperial Warrant is a capital crime that would stain a living noble's family name forever. Naturally an Agent program is not liable for such penalties, but such misuse would probably result in that agent personality being discarded as faulty... 'death' of a sort.

All this leads us to the conclusion and my second point:
Unlimited Imperial Warrants are issued only in the gravest emergency and only to personnel who have earned the greatest trust. And there have been very, very few Unlimited Imperial Warrants issued in the history of the Imperium. Admiral Baroness Adair of Sol was given a Limited Warrant whose jurisdiction was limited to Solomani Rim War front. Her conduct and decisions [and certainly her victories] impressed Emperor Gavin so much that he raised her family to the Archduchy of Sol. But had Operation Prodigal Son [the invasion of Terra] failed, she might very well have been ignominiously fired and replaced.

Such are the stakes when you're playing that card game. No Imperial noble can fail at the strategic level to that extent without repercussions. It may not look like to the common folk, but at this level one bad decision can scuttle generations worth of work. Just ask the Humboldts of Deneb.

Didn't the Imperium at one point also wipe out the entire tropical zone of Ilelish for rebelling against Imperial rule?

 

[actionman]

So, Imperial Charter just means Imperial Member World?

I'm guessing here, but the Imperial Charter might be the agreement between the Imperium and each member world, such as the world accepts becomes a subject world of the Imperium under these conditions. But it says in the traveller wiki IIRC that the Imperium may change its relationship with any Imperial world, organization, or individual at any time.

Or it might be some thing the writer made up that breaks canon.

 

[ottarrus]

Didn't the Imperium at one point also wipe out the entire tropical zone of Ilelish for rebelling against Imperial rule?

Yes, they did. It was the Scouring of Ilelish in 435. But that happened on the direct order of the Emperor Martin III, and not under the auspices of an Imperial Warrant.

 

[ottarrus]

I'm guessing here, but the Imperial Charter might be the agreement between the Imperium and each member world, such as the world accepts becomes a subject world of the Imperium under these conditions. But it says in the traveller wiki IIRC that the Imperium may change its relationship with any Imperial world, organization, or individual at any time.

Or it might be some thing the writer made up that breaks canon.

I'm guessing, but I think that such changes fall under the 'just in case' clauses of the contract. It's way down in the small print.

 

[Condottiere]

Depends on whether there exists an actual Imperium policy as to why and when Exterminatus is carried out.

 

[HalC]

Just a question: how might other worlds react to the news that a whole world was "scrubbed"? Bear in mind, that the moot participants are Imperial nobility, not world government representatives. So, how exactly do world governments interact with the Imperial government?

 

[Sigtrygg]

How did the world react when two cities disappeared in a nuclear inferno?

They celebrated because they thought it was for the greater good. Why did they think this...

 

[ottarrus]

Depends on whether there exists an actual Imperium policy as to why and when Exterminatus is carried out.

The Imperium doesn't have an Extermination Policy /Doctrine /Regulation /Whatever. At least, not from any source I've ever seen. When a world is scrubbed.... and can we all just give up the idea that this is common... it is on a case-by-case basis under the direst of emergencies. By this logic every single world that annoyed the Imperium would be scrubbed already, and they clearly are not. Vincennes, a world that hosted the Humbolt family, still exists even though the Humbolts actively fought against Arbellatra's regency.

And as we discussed in the 2300 thread on this same issue... that issue being dropping a planetoid on a world because it was inconvenient... there is literally no point in destroying a world in a fit of pique. Smashing something because 'if I can't have it nobody can' is the kind of thing we all should have gotten over in kindergarten. It's not 'strategy', it's a temper tantrum.

I've said that the Imperium is what every referee decides it is. That's fine. But the Imperium is not WH4K any more than it is the Empire of Star Wars or the Federation of Star Trek. There is a place for Horus Heresy and corpse on a throne just as there is a place for Darth Daddy Issues and Buddhist Templars with colored donkey dick flashlights. I suppose if you want your Traveller to reflect that nonsense, have at it. But that is not at my table or in my game or reflect my Traveller Universe.

 

[ottarrus]

How did the world react when two cities disappeared in a nuclear inferno?

They celebrated because they thought it was for the greater good. Why did they think this...

The world debates the necessity of Hiroshima and Nagasaki to this day, 80 years after the event.
As a historian I look at the casualty figures from LeMay's firebombing campaign and balance those with the figures of Hiroshima and Nagasaki [including follow-on casualties like cancer, starvation, etc.]. The hard, cold, but very ugly fact is that the atom bombs destroyed two cities but the firebombing campaign was destroying whole prefectures. The casualties of the atom bombs were significant but the firebombing campaign killed more people.
Then we have to get into the Allied casualties expected had Operation Downfall gone forward. Then add the Japanese casualties that would have been suffered in a futile defense.
I personally think that Hiroshima and Nagasaki were a military necessity. But let me make this clear: I do not suggest that the necessity was virtuous in any way, shape, or form. It was a Presidential decision that Harry S. Truman is on record as saying he made stone cold sober, and one he felt guilty about the rest of his life. It's rather like a platoon leader ordering a squad to move in order to flank the enemy knowing that at least some of those men are gonna die.

 

[Condottiere]

In context of Nineteen Forty Five, it was the logical decision, considering the likely casualties of an actual invasion of the Home Islands, both military and civilian.

Also, a test of what happens when you do use it, and a demonstration to the Soviets to behave.

 

[Fluffy Bunny Feet]

They could have done offshore blasts to limit casualties and point out "That could have been Tokyo" They didn't have to start with cities. They could also have hit a fleet at sea, a purely military target.

Remember that though the U.S. may have had few bombs the Japanese not only didn't know that but would have assumed otherwise if they were willing to expend them in demonstrations.