Imperial Battleships

[Condottiere]

The quote is appropriate, for a British warship commander, and presumably variants have surfaced in wardrooms since Admiral Byng.

The advantage the Royal Navy had, was, that in a war of attrition, it would win, since it had more ships, and yard capacity to replace them.

Add to that, financial reward to the entire crew, and the fleet commander, for anything they captured or destroyed.

 

[MonsterX]

The term dreadnought as a catch all term for bestest battleship didn't last very long in naval parlance, it remained a media term for a bit longer and pulp sci fi authors loved the term. Sci Fi TTRPG authors appear to be heavily influenced by the pulp sci fi novels.

It's because it is just an awesome name for a ship class. So of course you have to use it.

 

[Condottiere]

Of course.

 

[korpz]

Well, nautical quotes asside, I'm trying to come up with a fleet / ship class list for the FFW. The silhouette used in FFW Order of battle for Dreadnoughts indicate the Kokirrak as the primary dreadnought class. The Silhouette for 1st class Batleships I don't redcognised and the one for the 2nd class looks more like a Ghalak cruiser to me. High guard states that the only Tigress batron in the Spinward Marches is part of the 212th Fleet at Rhylanor. It also states that the Plankwell has been withdrawn from the Marches. There is a 2nd class and Reserve Battleship design in War Fleets of the FFW. As such I'm just looking for some guidance from official sources as to whether there is (or will be) some designs before I come up with one of my own, specially for 1st class BB.

 

[collins355]

Well, nautical quotes asside, I'm trying to come up with a fleet / ship class list for the FFW. The silhouette used in FFW Order of battle for Dreadnoughts indicate the Kokirrak as the primary dreadnought class. The Silhouette for 1st class Batleships I don't redcognised and the one for the 2nd class looks more like a Ghalak cruiser to me. High guard states that the only Tigress batron in the Spinward Marches is part of the 212th Fleet at Rhylanor. It also states that the Plankwell has been withdrawn from the Marches. There is a 2nd class and Reserve Battleship design in War Fleets of the FFW. As such I'm just looking for some guidance from official sources as to whether there is (or will be) some designs before I come up with one of my own, specially for 1st class BB.

I won't speak to the MJD-verse, but CT/Fighting Ships was the original canon for this.
On page 9 it states that rider BatRons suffered disproportionate losses in the 4thFW. The solution arrived at was to concentrate all rider Batrons in the strategic reserve while manning the frontier delaying forces exclusively with battleships.
On page 32 it says the Atlantic class heavy cruiser is being phased into "second line" assignments by the IN as soon as newer vessels can be obtained.
On page 36 it says that "where once a large dreadnaught would carry regiments of troops, phalanxes of fighters, and myriad weapons mounts, current practice is to split these various tasks into individual ships...to carry troops on troop transports, fighters on fighter carriers, and large weapons for the line of battle on battleships".
On page 38 it says that "although some older battleships of greater displacement remain in service, the Tigress class dreadnaught is the largest line-of-battle vessel currently in service with the IN in the Spinward Marches". "At present, only one Tigress class BatRon is deployed in the Spinward Marches, assigned to the 212th Fleet, at Rhylanor." "several individual Tigresses have been deployed among the worlds of the Five Sisters subsector to enforce the amber zone blockade of Andory and Candor".
On page 40 it says that while there had been at least one BatRon of Plankwell class dreadnaughts in the Spinward Marches, in 1102 the last such squadron was rotated into reserve in Corridor.
On page 42, it says that the Kokirrak class dreadnaught is one of the more common classes seen in the Spinward Marches. 4 BatRons are at Rhylanor, Regina, Jewell and Mora. But it also says they are old and being phased out to the scouts and "sector navies".

I note that they are all called "Dreadnaughts" at the top of each listing.

 

[Condottiere]

I'd sort them into minimum performance expected, for a given rating.

 

[rinku]

MJD aside, as Collins355 said above, in Fighting Ships the text uses Dreadnaught as an alternate for Battleship (p.9), and for the three largest ships presented in the book (Tigress, Plankwell and Kokirrak). So blame Tim Brown if you like for bringing the term in.

But MWM appears to have liked it, since he absolutely solidified "Dreadnaught" as the most powerful class in Fighting Ships of the Shattered Imperium (1990, p5).

So I really can't see MJD is doing anything other than following established lore here.

 

[phavoc]

Other sci-fi series or settings follows what's been mentioned by a few above. First you have battleships as a class, then dreadnoughts, then super-dreadnoughts as the scale of the ship goes up. In some cases a monitor class come afterwards, but that's sending mixed messages, as a classic monitor is slow and big-gunned and not the largest of fighting vessels.

 

[Condottiere]

Current High Guard rules tend to place optimal tonnages, for a preferred performance.

 

[rinku]

Other sci-fi series or settings follows what's been mentioned by a few above. First you have battleships as a class, then dreadnoughts, then super-dreadnoughts as the scale of the ship goes up. In some cases a monitor class come afterwards, but that's sending mixed messages, as a classic monitor is slow and big-gunned and not the largest of fighting vessels.

The Star Fleet Technical Manual (1975) is somewhat to blame here as well.

But for a fuller discussion, see here:

The Dreaded Dreadnought - TV Tropes

When dealing with navies (or, occasionally, armies with vehicle support) in fictional settings, there is usually one class of vehicle that just outclasses everything else. It's the biggest, baddest, meanest thing flying (or walking, or rarely …

tvtropes.org

 

[ross]

I was under the impression, at least in the old days, that Dreadnoughts were larger than Battleships. So BBs were 300k-400k dtons. Again, my memory may be failing.

 

[WHULorigan]

I was under the impression, at least in the old days, that Dreadnoughts were larger than Battleships. So BBs were 300k-400k dtons. Again, my memory may be failing.

Well, "Dreadnought" in a sense is just the biggest baddest battleship we can field, based on the current TL. So they do tend to be Battleships of the largest size for that reason. Until we build bigger battleships, causing the building of bigger top of the line battleships that get called dreadnoughts, and then yesterday's dreadnoughts are just battleships . . .

 

[WHULorigan]

I was under the impression, at least in the old days, that Dreadnoughts were larger than Battleships. So BBs were 300k-400k dtons. Again, my memory may be failing.

Well, "Dreadnought" in a sense is just the biggest baddest battleship we can field, based on the current TL. So they do tend to be Battleships of the largest size for that reason. Until we build bigger battleships, causing the building of bigger top of the line battleships that get called dreadnoughts, and then yesterday's dreadnoughts are just battleships . . .

That is actually what happened historically. The turn of the 20th Century Royal Navy policy was to maintain a Navy with a total tonnage equal to at least the sum of the tonnages of its two largest near-peer rival navies.

During this arms race the RN built the HMS Dreadnaught, a new class of battleship that outclassed everything that came before and set the standard for everyone in terms of building "Dreadnaught" (or "Dreadnought" [sic]) class vessels to compete. As the naval arms race progressed, the HMS Dreadnaught herself was outclassed by successive battleship classes, but the term stuck for a top of the line large battleship of superior capabilities

 

[Condottiere]

There are limitations besides technical - infrastructure, industrial, strategic, and tactical.

 

[Sigtrygg]

The name didn't stick except among the media and authors. Navies did not refer to the battleships they build during the 20s and 30s as dreadnoughts. I blame EE doc Smith.

By the way the latest nuclear missile sub under construction for the RN is the dreadnought class...

 

[Condottiere]

Post Great War navies had treaty definitions of warships, and limitations on battleship numbers and tonnage.

I would suppose that Traveller predreadnoughts would be line of battle ships without spinal mounts.

Which could be Sword Worlders'.

 

[WHULorigan]

Post Great War navies had treaty definitions of warships, and limitations on battleship numbers and tonnage.

I would suppose that Traveller predreadnoughts would be line of battle ships without spinal mounts.

Which could be Sword Worlders'.

But Traveller battleships had spinals going back to the Terran Confederation 30,000 ton battleships of the Interstellar Wars, IIRC.

T5 introduced "Main Weapon" emplacements of 200 tons, and MgT has "Large Bays" of 500 tons, both of which are larger than the largest sub-spinal pre-T5 and pre-MgT emplacements of 100 ton Bays.

Perhaps they help define Dreadnoughts as secondary weapon systems and Swordies Primary systems.

 

[Condottiere]

Historically, the Dreadnought was a concept of existing technologies, combined in one hull.

If Fisher had come up with a scaled down Queen Elizabeth class, though coal powered, it would have been perfect.

The primary difference is an improvement of speed and armament, over anything that had been built before.

If we take the premise that the meson spinal mounted line of battle ships, with jump factor/three drives, manoeuvre factor/five drives, and factor/ten armour, are the equivalent in Traveller of the Dreadnought concept.

 

[phavoc]

That is actually what happened historically. The turn of the 20th Century Royal Navy policy was to maintain a Navy with a total tonnage equal to at least the sum of the tonnages of its two largest near-peer rival navies.

During this arms race the RN built the HMS Dreadnaught, a new class of battleship that outclassed everything that came before and set the standard for everyone in terms of building "Dreadnaught" (or "Dreadnought" [sic]) class vessels to compete. As the naval arms race progressed, the HMS Dreadnaught herself was outclassed by successive battleship classes, but the term stuck for a top of the line large battleship of superior capabilities

Ya beat me to it...

For those interested in NOT doing their own research on this... HMS Dreadnaught, when launched, immediately rendered all previous classes of battleships obsolete for a few reasons - the biggest being that Fisher and the Royal Navy finally acknowledged that having multiple sizes of guns stuffed on a ship made little sense now that guns had such long range (and trying to fight at long, medium and short range was silly). The ship also was also equipped with steam turbines that made it faster than older ships. The gun changes also made it possible for additional design changes that simplified things and made the overall ship a better ship-of-the-line combatant.

Taken together it made all previous designs poor cousins to it. And, ironically in many ways, it's design and launch sparked a massive race amongst the major naval powers that made Dreadnaught rapidly obsolete itself as new technologies and bigger guns gave her an operational lifetime of only 13 years. Her only actions against an enemy consisted of being the only battleship ever to sink a submarine (by ramming).

 

[Endie]

Ya beat me to it...

For those interested in NOT doing their own research on this... HMS Dreadnaught, when launched, immediately rendered all previous classes of battleships obsolete for a few reasons - the biggest being that Fisher and the Royal Navy finally acknowledged that having multiple sizes of guns stuffed on a ship made little sense now that guns had such long range (and trying to fight at long, medium and short range was silly). The ship also was also equipped with steam turbines that made it faster than older ships. The gun changes also made it possible for additional design changes that simplified things and made the overall ship a better ship-of-the-line combatant.

Taken together it made all previous designs poor cousins to it. And, ironically in many ways, it's design and launch sparked a massive race amongst the major naval powers that made Dreadnaught rapidly obsolete itself as new technologies and bigger guns gave her an operational lifetime of only 13 years. Her only actions against an enemy consisted of being the only battleship ever to sink a submarine (by ramming).

Arguably it was a factor - albeit only an indirect contribution - in the process that lead to World War I: by instantly rendering every floating battleship obsolescent (or even obsolete), it gave the Germans the idea that they had a real chance of competing with Britain. They no longer had to catch up with Britain's legacy naval supremacy through their mass of completed tonnage. They just had to outbuild Britain regarding the tonnage that the latter could commit to the North Sea and to any attempt at a distant blockade.

There were two flaws with this plan: one was that the Germans could not, in fact, outbuild the British, even with the distant commitments around the world that the Royal Navy had. The second flaw was that the British took extremely poorly to the Germans even attempting to do so, and by the time the Germans gave up the naval arms race (which was before 1914), public opinion was very jingoistic on the subject ("We want eight and we won't wait!" being the popular cry regarding such ships).