I'm pretty worried now

[Iyan]

Also, as you were the one who did the editing.. why was Resurrect taken away from Chalana Arroy? Yes, there has been some heavy handed editing here, whether you'd like to hear that or not. I know you have some kind of limit as to how many pages the books were supposed to be, but to take the spirit away from certain cults isn't the way to do it. A healing goddess with severe cult restrictions against taking up arms who doesn't get good healing spells, the God of Death with no spell to really identify him because it was too powerful for MRQ?

I'm worried about the spirit of Glorantha disappearing in the mist with some of these changes. Humakt is losing alot of his sting, Chalana Arroy will not have worshippers, because truth to be told, who would want to? I can't even imagine people protecting the Chalana Arroy initiates and priests like they do in RQ3, which is one of the reason the cult can exist and operate as they do. Why would people do that for one specific cult when it is no better than most others at healing spells?

Noones meaning to piss the editors and whatnot off here, but if that is the result then perhaps someone should look into why they are so touchy on the subject. We are customers voicing our opinions about your product that we are all in the process of buying. I don't see how ignoring the customers, and even basically telling us we're stupid (I may be the only one to read that between the lines on the post up there, but that's what I'm seeing) will be good on your sales, but I am guessing that's why people are doing what they're doing. You all know we'll buy it anyway so you can tell us to suck it up and tell us in caps how stupid we are, and we'll still buy your products because we love RQ. Good power to have, no?

 

[Exubae]

Now, for the purposes of game balance it was indeed removed. Even if it had remained, all the elements mentioned above would have had to be changed. Would I then have been accused of heavy-handed editing by the old guard I wonder???

Fair enough as it stands Sever spirit would have been WAY over powered, but it kind of castrates Humakt not having anything to replace it - or even a tweaked Sever Spirit.

The problem with the editing isn't so much that the grosser spells have been cut- more the remaining document doesn't feel like much thought or time went in to editing, it reads like it hasn't been cleaned up properly, did you proof read it after it had its trip to the cutting room?
Its references to spells and stuff is missing.

Remember some of ust forked out the fifteen quid.

 

[Gevrin]

I can see Sever Spirit, as the RQ3 Divine Magic spell, being overpowered and that's fine. Sever Spirit is mentioned once or twice IIRC in some of the gloranthan sources as being a power of Humakt, but that doesn't mean it has to be a DM spell in MRQ, it could be a heroquesting power for example.

I think this is spot on - Heroquesting is supposed to be an integral part of Gloranthan cosmology yet in RQ major powers of the gods (for instance Sever Spirit or Resurrection) could be gained as normal divine magics. It would be far more interesting to see these crucial parts of a god's make-up being available only via special means, i.e. heroquesting. The HQ rules do something similar with a cult's secret.

No-one ever suggested that CA pops around resurrecting people willy-nilly; but if the spell is readily available, why not? After all, it's in their nature to heal everyone, or maybe it's something far more special than just another divine magic spell. Come on Mongoose, expand on heroquesting and cult secrets.

Cheers

Dave

 

[Licheking]

I'm a new GM to runequest and glorantha, but i have played in older incarnations of the setting for over 20 years. What i'm seeing from Mongoose definatly gets my approval, and the slight changes that there are, are in my opinion insignificant.

Frankly everything i have seen or read from Mongoose has evoked the flavour of Glorantha. And ultimitly thats what i want. Glorantha is a great setting with lots of history and flavour, and if something doesn't fit with what i know from a 3rd age perspective then i put it down to Godlearner or EWF meddling.

Looking at the cults they sound fine to me, and if you want to look at faiths that change with time just look at Christianity and how its change over just 2000 years.

I don't see why people are complaining so much, if you don't see a spell in a cult you thought should be there, then add it, if you know what it is supposed to do then making the rules for it should be a doddle. And as for the portrayal of Trolls, surely artisitic license can be allowed, and in my opinion the biggest differences in artwork portraying a race is the ducks. From actual ducks in armour and hands to the much cooler ducks i see in MRQ. Oh and the height, ducks are taller in this version than 3rd age, but then maybe the curse is making them more ducklike over time and therefore smaller, thats my reasoning and i like it.

 

[Exubae]

Humakt is supposed to be a god of Death, Honour, and Oaths...
Currently he is not much good at either, well no better than Orlanth or Urox. In fact he is only just passable as a war god...

Orlanthi Humakti are feared by other Orlanthi, milk curdles, the old and the infirm die when they pass by...
They ritually (die) reject their family and tribe to join Humakt...

Arkat worshipped him for a while and tried to use his magic to finish off old Gbaji (failed of course),
So he says to himself, "sodit, I'll get a plastic pig snout and try and Join Zorak Zoran"
At the moment who can blame Arkat becoming a Troll, ZZ is a lot more attractive as a cult @).

 

[Jaldon Goldentooth]

I have been amazed by the vehemence of the attacks being made on Mongoose. Sure, they've made mistakes - and some of them are big ones. But was RQ2 perfect, or RQ3 or HeroWars/Quest? Jeez, give them the benefit of the doubt for a while. They are new to RQ/Glorantha give them a chance to grow in to it. I think some of you people would only be happy if Greg Stafford and Steve Perrin wrote a new version of RQ exactly the same as RQ2.

Look at the good stuff Mongoose has done already: *eight* books already (compare this with the drip, drip, drip of books in the past from Chaosium, AH and Issaries; how long did it take Under the Red Moon to come out?). Don't kill them before they get started, I have waited a long time for an RQ/Glorantha renaissance like this.

 

[Jaldon Goldentooth]

Orlanthi Humakti are feared by other Orlanthi, milk curdles...

Replace "Sever Spirit" with "Curdle Milk" then. :wink:

 

[duncan_disorderly]

Now, for the purposes of game balance it was indeed removed. Even if it had remained, all the elements mentioned above would have had to be changed. Would I then have been accused of heavy-handed editing by the old guard I wonder???

Hmm, I wonder. Would people have been more upset if well known Gloranthan Cults had their signature spells which had been re-written to work with the MRQ rules, or if the Signature spells were inexplicably missing?

Actually I don't wonder at all - Well, not about this at any rate. I do wonder why anyone would consider cutting these spells rather than re-writing them though, or why anyone who would consider doing so would be considered a suitable editor for Gloranthan material. (An editor of generic material, sure. We don't want an editor that would let material through that didn't fit the published rules.... Um, you weren't responsible for the Combat table in the main book were you?)

 

[duncan_disorderly]

Better editing couldnt hurt at all, but honestly, if people bitched as much as they have, about something so trivial as how trolls look, I'd be cranky too.
.

If Mongoose hadn't managed to muck up something as easy to get right as how Trolls looked then we might all have felt a lot more confident.

Im confident that they will get better as time goes by.

Not according to Ian Belcher...

 

[Exubae]

vehemence

Only where my money is concerned
But vehemence seems to be a two way street...

Possibly GtSA raised the expectations of products from Mongoose, and then the rather poor editing of CoG1 was like a slap that bought me back down to earth again with worries things would go the same ways as d20 material. (CoG1 isn't that bad when compared to the core book)

We all just want to see quality RQ stuff roll out from Mongoose's Doors, and apart from the two books, the rest of the line has been quality.

Look at the good stuff Mongoose has done already: *eight* books already

Apart from GSA, we haven't got much more material in print than we had with Avalon Hill churning out its take on RQ. (other than legendeary abilities of course)
But hopefully, some more new stuff will hit the shelves...

Plea - "Please read through the manuscript after you cut stuff... Please..."

I'm trying to steer away from making further comments on Troll snouts, but it has become a bit of a running joke... so tempting to have a crack but I don't want to blow it...

 

[soltakss]

Now, for the purposes of game balance it was indeed removed. Even if it had remained, all the elements mentioned above would have had to be changed. Would I then have been accused of heavy-handed editing by the old guard I wonder???

Hmm, I wonder. Would people have been more upset if well known Gloranthan Cults had their signature spells which had been re-written to work with the MRQ rules, or if the Signature spells were inexplicably missing?

It happened in RQ3 as well.

Does anyone remember how Storm Bull and Zoran Zoran were the only Berserkers in RQ2, then Gods of Glorantha came out and gave it to every Death Cult? Or that Storm Bull didn't have Shield but gave it to Zorak Zoran as an Associate Cult? (I'm working from memory here so the cults may be wrong ...)

Most of the problems were fixed later on (Storm Bull got his spells back in River of Cradles) but it took a while.

I haven't bought Cults of Glorantha yet, maybe at the weekend, so I can't comment on the individual cults, but it does seem odd that if something has been pointed out to be missing, then the "official" response is to say "add it then" or "so what?".

 

[B_Steele]

Hey folks - there seems to be...wait a second...I need to find the most calming colour I can...

Nope, that's not it.

That's just naff.

Getting there...

Okay, got it. So, where was I? Alright...the aggression level of this forum. As one of the MGP and more specifically MRQ book writer/designers, it is VERY difficult and frustrating to come to this forum sometimes. I mean, I consider myself a professional in this industry and try very hard not to lose my cool on the fans. Actually, after a small fansplosion I had last year (which I was heavily reprimanded for, and deserved of it too), I learned that the internet just simply brings out the worst in some people when they have an opinion to share. Inflection is lost, and people's feathers get ruffled (insert Duck comment here).

Okay, enough of that...it was hurting my brain.

People sometimes forget the level of blood, sweat and tears that go into these projects and just how much production goes into a book every day. So, when we come onto the equivalent of our home on the internet just to find that we are getting bashed...it is a bit disheartening.

I mean, on the RQ forum alone we collective Mongeese have been called liars, profiteers, ignorant, uncaring and a host of other terms that most people would never say to someone's face in their home. At least, not without having to pick themselves off the floor immediately afterwards. Hell, I had one of my books called "less than dog vomit" (paraphrased) here. If someone would have said that to my face in my living room...my response would have far less understanding, or professional. The internet makes that sort of communication possible and without much in the way of social responsibility or recourse; it sucks...but it's true. As professionals we should stay civil for as long as possible, but we are human too...

I've rambled on long enough about that. What I really wanted to come on here and say is that rather than screaming "nigh and the end is near" because of "heavy-handed editing" and "bad art"; maybe just give an intelligent opinion and know that Matthew has one helluva head on his shoulders and perhaps these well-voiced opinions will be taken more to heart for future products than that all of the doom and gloom posting.

I'm not saying anyone here is right or wrong...merely that being right or wrong but voicing it like a gentleman or a lady (depending on who you are) is more likely to get the attention it deserves.

Alright, enough bleeding-heart pansy talk...I have RPGs to write in anoter window...

- just for Rurik.
- that's for everyone else.

-Bry[/b]

 

[Rurik]

Hey folks - there seems to be...wait a second...I need to find the most calming colour I can...

Bry, feel free to be condescending, dismissive, downright insulting, or anything you want....

... just please, please, please don't post in those colors again!

 

[Dead Blue Clown]

...Actually, after a small fansplosion I had last year...

I lost a month's wages to pay for that kid's skin graft.

 

[ninthcouncil]

I'm not saying anyone here is right or wrong...merely that being right or wrong but voicing it like a gentleman or a lady (depending on who you are) is more likely to get the attention it deserves.[/b]

Maybe a little too much of one part of Orlanth's wisdom is knocking around here at the moment - "Violence is always an option" - without enough of Ernalda's codicil - "There is always another way".

Or indeed, Eurmal's addendum - "My hovercraft is full of eels".

 

[The Greek]

Or indeed, Eurmal's addendum - "My hovercraft is full of eels".

Surely worms not eels.......

 

[ninthcouncil]

Or indeed, Eurmal's addendum - "My hovercraft is full of eels".

Surely worms not eels.......

If Eurmal can get a hovercraft in Glorantha, he can fill it with whatever he likes.

 

[Adept]

<snip>
IT'S A MAGNITUDE 3 SPELL THAT CAUSES INSTANT DEATH FOR GOD'S SAKE!!!

Now, for the purposes of game balance it was indeed removed. Even if it had remained, all the elements mentioned above would have had to be changed. Would I then have been accused of heavy-handed editing by the old guard I wonder???

Richard Ford
Heavy-Handed Editor of Cults 1 & 2

Nope, at least I wouldn't have. It has stayed central even in Hero Quest. The death spell should be the biggest spell granted by Humakt. What that means depends on the specifics of MRQ of course.

If magnitude three is too little, set it higher. You have a resistance roll in place of the MP vs. MP roll, and the general HP damage isn't important.

 

[gamesmeister]

People sometimes forget the level of blood, sweat and tears that go into these projects and just how much production goes into a book every day. So, when we come onto the equivalent of our home on the internet just to find that we are getting bashed...it is a bit disheartening.

Bry, for the most part, people (including myself) have been complimentary of Cults of Glorantha (and indeed of most other books). However, we've also found some problems with it, which in this particular case can be found on another thread.

I used to edit CCGs for AEG, and every so often I'd get something wrong. I'd alter the wording on a card, or I'd change the numbers because I thought they were too weak/powerful, and I'd screw the card up. There would be a big fuss on the forums, and I'd log on, admit the mistake, and issue errata to the card. Everything would then die down - until the next time I did it...

My point is, no-one from Mongoose has come on the forums and acknowledged these issues. They could come on and say that the flavour of Humakt or Chalana Arroy has changed for 2nd edition, therefore their cult spells have changed. Or they could come on and say "sorry guys, we screwed these up, they should read <blah>". But we've had neither of those. Instead we had an editor come on and say the version in the original manuscript made no sense, and so he cut it. Sorry, but that's not the way to do it.

The original version would have been written based on the rules as they stood at the time. The rules then changed, making that version of the spell obsolete. No problem, these things will always happen. But what should happen is either the editor goes back to the author and asks for a rewrite, or takes it in-house to rewrite it. Cutting a spell that defines the role of a God should not be an option. You wouldn't cut the finale of a book just because you didn't like the way it was written.

In many ways, given it's strong tradition of fan contribution over the last 25 years, what happens with RQ is as much a collaboration between Mongoose and the fans as anything - it's not a 'them vs us' scenario. We all want Mongoose to make a great success of RQ, so if mistakes are made, just admit them, fix them, and move on.

Just my 2L

Gerry

 

[Voriof]

Hmm. How about:

Sever Spirit
Instant, Magnitude 3, Ranged, Resist (Resilient)
Cult: Humakt, Zorak Zoran

This spell severs the bond between the target's body and soul. If the target fails to resist, the target dies. If unsuccessful, the target still loses 1D6 CON which are recovered in the same fashion as attribute points lost due to disease.

Note that this spell manifests slightly differently for each cult with access to it. The Humakti version is a sword, slicing the cord of life while the Zorak Zoran version smashes the soul from the body.

(Design note:This spell could be made a different Magnitude or cost the Caster to lose one POW permanently each time it is

As Richard has said, the then-unpublished rules for both RuneQuest and the Companion changed several times over the course of writing the book(s). I would also like to mention that some of the problems are my fault as the ms took far longer to write than anticipated. Richard has done a decent job, especially considering the situation at hand.

Jeff