Condottiere
Emperor Mongoose
Probably very self conscious about the size and shape of their tails.
If you ever wanted to know the origins of the concept for the Aslan...
- Thread starter collins355
- Start date
ottarrus
Emperor Mongoose
Yeah, the average Aslan male is supposed to 2.1 m tall and 95-110 kg. And they don't look like a bad guy from some third rate anime mag either.
I've always objected to Mongoose's portrayal of Aslan as 'Capt. Kirk throwing a temper tantrum like a two year old'. If I am supposed to treat the Aslan as a distinct culture that is a direct competitor to the Third Imperium, the least Mongoose can do is treat them that way too.
ottarrus
Emperor Mongoose
AoCS v. 1 says that some lineages of Aslan have long tails and some have stubbed tails in the same way some Humans are blonde and some are brunettes. Culturally it doesn't matter but I have no doubt that there are some Aslan males who vainly gloat over the thickness of their mane or the size of their tails. But I don't think the real serious Aslan respect that type all that much... 'style before substance', etc.
OTOH, credit to the Aslan in that they DON'T have butt implants and fish lips like a lot of Human instagram bimbolitas
Sigtrygg
Emperor Mongoose
Every source including Mongoose says:
The Aslan that has evolved from those beginnings is,
like a human, an upright biped averaging two metres
in height and 100 kilograms in mass.
Illustrations of Aslan males compared with human males in multiple pre-Mongooses sources and T5 observe this, they do not increase the average size to 2.1m
My problem is that they have very frequently "taken it too literally". I'm quite certain they read Niven, but I don't think that means they had the Kzinti in mind when designing the Aslan. What little information we have suggests otherwise, actually. And every time you see someone draw on Niven for Charted Space, it changes existing material.
I use Traveller to run all sorts of games. I don't have a problem with running games in the Niven-verse or Star Trek or Star Wars or the Culture or Stargate or any number of other kinds of settings. I don't have any problem with putting Kzinti in a game. But I just put Kzinti in the game.
I'm not at all concerned with what people do in their home games. But the Aslan in particular have a pretty well developed culture and lore, better than pretty much any other species in Charted Space (except maybe the Droyne). And every time anyone writing about them draws on Niven, they run away from that with their Kzinti "inspiration." That, and the art issues, has sort of worn a pain point into being for me, I guess
Yatima
Cosmic Mongoose
My problem is that they have very frequently "taken it too literally". ... And every time anyone writing about them draws on Niven, they run away from that with their Kzinti "inspiration." That, and the art issues, has sort of worn a pain point into being for me, I guess
I get that, I really do. I think we're in violent agreement, overall, honestly. These sources (Kzinti, Hani, CS Lewis et al) were a clear inspiration. Enjoy this fact. Don't over-egg it though.
Thanks for a reasoned and civil discussion
. Much appreciated.collins355
Emperor Mongoose
T5 view of the human-Aslan comparison.
One issue is that most of us GMs are not talented actors capable of inhabiting a wide range of subtly-different but utterly alien identities and portraying them consistently and believably to the players.
So for a TTRPG we need broad brush strokes and memorable traits. And since we don't actually know any aliens (except, maybe, Mark Zuckerberg) every sophont is going to be portrayed as a human who has some difference. So murderous vegans, honour- and land-obsessed samurai, manipulative sneaks, emotional-mood-swing, speed-obsessed dogs and so on are all we have. And we need comprehensible, predictable portrayals so that players can make decisions that have predictable outcomes to avoid yet more analysis-paralysis.
We do this (even if Social Sciences graduates from Columbia pretend that they don't) for human nationalities we've known of for centuries (Russia/Iran: "English people are dangerous manipulators", France: "English people are arrogant", USA: "English people are aloof with wonky teeth", Greeks: "English people are sneaky art thieves", Scotland: "English people rig the world cup draw" etc...) so how can we possibly avoid it for imaginary aliens?
If Aslan have no "cliche" and are a range of people with the same range of traits as humans in the same situation would have, then they're not other.
ottarrus
Emperor Mongoose
We certainly have stereotypes and cliches and oftentimes those cliches are negative. This is part of humanity's subconscious habit of categorizing everything in terms of 'Us' and 'Them'. And, of course, most stereotypes have a kernel of truth buried in them somewhere.
What I object to in the case of the Aslan is the trivializing and infantilizing of the race. Vargr are stereotyped seriously ['Wolfman space pirates'], as are human cultures like the Vilani ['Corporate drones, but don't mess with them']. But the depiction of Aslan as children throwing a fit makes them more easily dismissable.
I'm hoping that the Aslan books coming out next year [as was announced this week] will address this problem.
Condottiere
Emperor Mongoose
Aslan - expand or die.
Vargr - expand and die.
Vargr - expand and die.
I only know of one Aslan in the published material I own who "throws a fit" (In the Borderland Run) and he has an extremely good reason to do so. I don't know what your GM has done on these lines but there are a lot of canonical Aslan characters in Mongoose-published materials for whom "throwing a fit" or "childlike" behaviour would be entirely and jarringly out of character!
However, if you mean that they are touchy, proud and prone to what strikes us as extreme or violent over-reaction then the history of Samurai culture is replete with such documented examples, and whatever criticisms we may have of that culture, I don't think that "trivial" or "infantilised" would be applicable. As you will be aware, I could go through a lot of other cultures - particularly warrior cultures - where the same would apply.
On your other examples, I see the portrayal of Vargr (emotional, erratic, unstable, given to thievery) as far more "trivialising" than that of the Aslan. But I also like fun things so I have no problem with it, either!
Garnfellow
Cosmic Mongoose
RAGE:
Sing, Goddess, Achilles' rage,
Black and murderous, that cost the Greeks
Incalculable pain, pitched countless souls
Of heroes into Hades' dark,
And left their bodies to rot as feasts
For dogs and birds, as Zeus' will was done.
Sing, Goddess, Achilles' rage,
Black and murderous, that cost the Greeks
Incalculable pain, pitched countless souls
Of heroes into Hades' dark,
And left their bodies to rot as feasts
For dogs and birds, as Zeus' will was done.
actionman
Emperor Mongoose
The Freebooting Wolves of Space, man. The Freebooting Wolves of Space.
Condottiere
Emperor Mongoose
The trope is true.
Narrative says only ten percent of Vargr are corsairs.
That's one in eight of the working population, assuming eighty percent aren't minors or retired.
And going by Traveller character generation probability, Vargr die one Olympic term before humans.
Narrative says only ten percent of Vargr are corsairs.
That's one in eight of the working population, assuming eighty percent aren't minors or retired.
And going by Traveller character generation probability, Vargr die one Olympic term before humans.
Condottiere
Emperor Mongoose
How does this go on again, socio economic politic?
Aslan - patriarchy.
Vargr - identity politics.
Aslan - patriarchy.
Vargr - identity politics.
mavikfelna
Emperor Mongoose
The Aslan are all about identity politics. Your sex, even if you're a non-Aslan in Aslan society, determines everything you can do and how you rise in society.
The Vargr on the other hand are collective individualists. You can find every form of government and social structure but they tend to follow chrismatic individuals on a personal basis.
Condottiere
Emperor Mongoose
Individual Vargr are anarcho capitalists.
Though, easily swayed by populism.
Though, easily swayed by populism.
collins355
Emperor Mongoose
Vargr were originally based on Plains Indians.
Condottiere
Emperor Mongoose
Outside of samurai cats, I always thought that primitive Aslan had that vibe.
Samurai Peacepipe Cats.
Vargr seem more Vikings, and going with the werewolf theme, according to some Youtube videos, Indo European tribes that send out their surplus young men dressed in wolfskins, to raid and kidnap some other tribe's women, which sounds suspiciously like the Rape of the Sabine Women.
Samurai Peacepipe Cats.
Vargr seem more Vikings, and going with the werewolf theme, according to some Youtube videos, Indo European tribes that send out their surplus young men dressed in wolfskins, to raid and kidnap some other tribe's women, which sounds suspiciously like the Rape of the Sabine Women.
In terms of the aliens' publication dates, A2 Research Station Gamma (1980) appears to be the first mention of the Six Races, with the following text in Library Data:
"Major Race. An arbitrary distinction based on the achievement of a specific
intelligent race. A race which achieves interstellar travel (jump drive) through its
own efforts is classed major; one which does not is classed minor.
To date, generally accepted major races include Humaniti (Zhodani, Solomani,
and Vilani, but not other examples), Aslan, the Hive, Centaurs, Vargr, Ancients,
and Droyne.
The Suerrat (a human race) have been held to be minor, because their achievement
of interstellar travel utilized generation ships. Similarly, the Geonee were
originally thought to be a major race, but their development of jump drive was
based on recovered Ancient artifacts rather than true racial efforts. The Geonee
dispute this prevailing opinion and hold the (unshared) view that they are of major
standing.
The Droyne have been demonstrated to be major, having developed jump drive
as far back as - 7000. At present, however, they do not build or use jump drives,
and remain voluntarily sequestered in their scattered systems to spinward."
Further descriptions of the Vargr and Aslan (including a picture), as well as their and the Centaur homeworlds is given in A3 Twilight's Peak (1980), which of course also has a full description of the Droyne, including character generation.
Vargr and Zhodani were previously mentioned in S3 Spinward Marches (1979).
JTAS 7 (1981) has the Aslan Contact! article, which is really the first place that the Samurai are mentioned:
"PLAYING THE ASLAN
The player who chooses to be an Aslan should bear in mind that while they have many similarities to humans, they are not human, and should not be played as such. Two hints for the prospective Aslan:
— Read as much as possible on Japanese samurai. The underlying characteristics of Aslan society, pride and loyalty, make them behave much like samurai of the "Age of War"..."
I would say that the Aslan were probably blocked out by the GW staff in late 1979 or early 1980. Their name and the concept of "major races" was in place in time for the publication of Adventure 2; later that year there was a fleshed out description of them as lion-like, with a picture in Adventure 3. It should also be noted that Research Station Gamma and Twilight's Peak are a pair (later competed as a trilogy in 1984 with Secrets) - they were written as part of a continuing story by Marc, so even if others fleshed out the Aslan later, or might have suggested stuff to him, Marc W Miller is the original published author of the Aslan.
"Major Race. An arbitrary distinction based on the achievement of a specific
intelligent race. A race which achieves interstellar travel (jump drive) through its
own efforts is classed major; one which does not is classed minor.
To date, generally accepted major races include Humaniti (Zhodani, Solomani,
and Vilani, but not other examples), Aslan, the Hive, Centaurs, Vargr, Ancients,
and Droyne.
The Suerrat (a human race) have been held to be minor, because their achievement
of interstellar travel utilized generation ships. Similarly, the Geonee were
originally thought to be a major race, but their development of jump drive was
based on recovered Ancient artifacts rather than true racial efforts. The Geonee
dispute this prevailing opinion and hold the (unshared) view that they are of major
standing.
The Droyne have been demonstrated to be major, having developed jump drive
as far back as - 7000. At present, however, they do not build or use jump drives,
and remain voluntarily sequestered in their scattered systems to spinward."
Further descriptions of the Vargr and Aslan (including a picture), as well as their and the Centaur homeworlds is given in A3 Twilight's Peak (1980), which of course also has a full description of the Droyne, including character generation.
Vargr and Zhodani were previously mentioned in S3 Spinward Marches (1979).
JTAS 7 (1981) has the Aslan Contact! article, which is really the first place that the Samurai are mentioned:
"PLAYING THE ASLAN
The player who chooses to be an Aslan should bear in mind that while they have many similarities to humans, they are not human, and should not be played as such. Two hints for the prospective Aslan:
— Read as much as possible on Japanese samurai. The underlying characteristics of Aslan society, pride and loyalty, make them behave much like samurai of the "Age of War"..."
I would say that the Aslan were probably blocked out by the GW staff in late 1979 or early 1980. Their name and the concept of "major races" was in place in time for the publication of Adventure 2; later that year there was a fleshed out description of them as lion-like, with a picture in Adventure 3. It should also be noted that Research Station Gamma and Twilight's Peak are a pair (later competed as a trilogy in 1984 with Secrets) - they were written as part of a continuing story by Marc, so even if others fleshed out the Aslan later, or might have suggested stuff to him, Marc W Miller is the original published author of the Aslan.
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