If you ever wanted to know the origins of the concept for the Aslan...

[Condottiere]

Probably very self conscious about the size and shape of their tails.

 

[ottarrus]

They're big enough now to be inflatable yard decorations. That's why Aslan females do everything. The males are too big to get in the car.
I think in CT they were something like 2 meters tall and 100kg, slightly taller and stockier than the average human.

Yeah, the average Aslan male is supposed to 2.1 m tall and 95-110 kg. And they don't look like a bad guy from some third rate anime mag either.
I've always objected to Mongoose's portrayal of Aslan as 'Capt. Kirk throwing a temper tantrum like a two year old'. If I am supposed to treat the Aslan as a distinct culture that is a direct competitor to the Third Imperium, the least Mongoose can do is treat them that way too.

 

[ottarrus]

Probably very self conscious about the size and shape of their tails.

AoCS v. 1 says that some lineages of Aslan have long tails and some have stubbed tails in the same way some Humans are blonde and some are brunettes. Culturally it doesn't matter but I have no doubt that there are some Aslan males who vainly gloat over the thickness of their mane or the size of their tails. But I don't think the real serious Aslan respect that type all that much... 'style before substance', etc.
OTOH, credit to the Aslan in that they DON'T have butt implants and fish lips like a lot of Human instagram bimbolitas

 

[Sigtrygg]

Yeah, the average Aslan male is supposed to 2.1 m tall and 95-110 kg. And they don't look like a bad guy from some third rate anime mag either.
I've always objected to Mongoose's portrayal of Aslan as 'Capt. Kirk throwing a temper tantrum like a two year old'. If I am supposed to treat the Aslan as a distinct culture that is a direct competitor to the Third Imperium, the least Mongoose can do is treat them that way too.

Every source including Mongoose says:

The Aslan that has evolved from those beginnings is,
like a human, an upright biped averaging two metres
in height and 100 kilograms in mass.

Illustrations of Aslan males compared with human males in multiple pre-Mongooses sources and T5 observe this, they do not increase the average size to 2.1m

 

[Vormaerin]

I'd suggest that looking at all of the inspirations for these aliens is instructive – I'd hope that it encourages people to go and read about the Hani, about the Kzinti, see where the authors of Traveller where coming from and make their games better through a deeper understanding of the Urtext (while not taking it too literally, of course).

For me, RPGs like Traveller are a chance to play in the settings and stories I am familiar with from my science fiction reading, that includes literally playing in some licensed setting all the way to playing in the Travellerverse, which is a particular cake baked with lots of these ingredients.

I just don't see the sense in trying to insist that this is an isolated thing, in an isolated pocket, that references nothing else. That seems to me to cut Traveller loose from the rich inheritance of source materials it synthesises and simulates.

My problem is that they have very frequently "taken it too literally". I'm quite certain they read Niven, but I don't think that means they had the Kzinti in mind when designing the Aslan. What little information we have suggests otherwise, actually. And every time you see someone draw on Niven for Charted Space, it changes existing material.

I use Traveller to run all sorts of games. I don't have a problem with running games in the Niven-verse or Star Trek or Star Wars or the Culture or Stargate or any number of other kinds of settings. I don't have any problem with putting Kzinti in a game. But I just put Kzinti in the game.

I'm not at all concerned with what people do in their home games. But the Aslan in particular have a pretty well developed culture and lore, better than pretty much any other species in Charted Space (except maybe the Droyne). And every time anyone writing about them draws on Niven, they run away from that with their Kzinti "inspiration." That, and the art issues, has sort of worn a pain point into being for me, I guess

 

[Yatima]

My problem is that they have very frequently "taken it too literally". ... And every time anyone writing about them draws on Niven, they run away from that with their Kzinti "inspiration." That, and the art issues, has sort of worn a pain point into being for me, I guess

I get that, I really do. I think we're in violent agreement, overall, honestly. These sources (Kzinti, Hani, CS Lewis et al) were a clear inspiration. Enjoy this fact. Don't over-egg it though.

Thanks for a reasoned and civil discussion . Much appreciated.

 

[collins355]

T5 view of the human-Aslan comparison.

 

[Endie]

Yeah, the average Aslan male is supposed to 2.1 m tall and 95-110 kg. And they don't look like a bad guy from some third rate anime mag either.
I've always objected to Mongoose's portrayal of Aslan as 'Capt. Kirk throwing a temper tantrum like a two year old'. If I am supposed to treat the Aslan as a distinct culture that is a direct competitor to the Third Imperium, the least Mongoose can do is treat them that way too.

One issue is that most of us GMs are not talented actors capable of inhabiting a wide range of subtly-different but utterly alien identities and portraying them consistently and believably to the players.

So for a TTRPG we need broad brush strokes and memorable traits. And since we don't actually know any aliens (except, maybe, Mark Zuckerberg) every sophont is going to be portrayed as a human who has some difference. So murderous vegans, honour- and land-obsessed samurai, manipulative sneaks, emotional-mood-swing, speed-obsessed dogs and so on are all we have. And we need comprehensible, predictable portrayals so that players can make decisions that have predictable outcomes to avoid yet more analysis-paralysis.

We do this (even if Social Sciences graduates from Columbia pretend that they don't) for human nationalities we've known of for centuries (Russia/Iran: "English people are dangerous manipulators", France: "English people are arrogant", USA: "English people are aloof with wonky teeth", Greeks: "English people are sneaky art thieves", Scotland: "English people rig the world cup draw" etc...) so how can we possibly avoid it for imaginary aliens?

If Aslan have no "cliche" and are a range of people with the same range of traits as humans in the same situation would have, then they're not other.

 

[ottarrus]

One issue is that most of us GMs are not talented actors capable of inhabiting a wide range of subtly-different but utterly alien identities and portraying them consistently and believably to the players.

So for a TTRPG we need broad brush strokes and memorable traits. And since we don't actually know any aliens (except, maybe, Mark Zuckerberg) every sophont is going to be portrayed as a human who has some difference. So murderous vegans, honour- and land-obsessed samurai, manipulative sneaks, emotional-mood-swing, speed-obsessed dogs and so on are all we have. And we need comprehensible, predictable portrayals so that players can make decisions that have predictable outcomes to avoid yet more analysis-paralysis.

We do this (even if Social Sciences graduates from Columbia pretend that they don't) for human nationalities we've known of for centuries (Russia/Iran: "English people are dangerous manipulators", France: "English people are arrogant", USA: "English people are aloof with wonky teeth", Greeks: "English people are sneaky art thieves", Scotland: "English people rig the world cup draw" etc...) so how can we possibly avoid it for imaginary aliens?

If Aslan have no "cliche" and are a range of people with the same range of traits as humans in the same situation would have, then they're not other.

We certainly have stereotypes and cliches and oftentimes those cliches are negative. This is part of humanity's subconscious habit of categorizing everything in terms of 'Us' and 'Them'. And, of course, most stereotypes have a kernel of truth buried in them somewhere.

What I object to in the case of the Aslan is the trivializing and infantilizing of the race. Vargr are stereotyped seriously ['Wolfman space pirates'], as are human cultures like the Vilani ['Corporate drones, but don't mess with them']. But the depiction of Aslan as children throwing a fit makes them more easily dismissable.

I'm hoping that the Aslan books coming out next year [as was announced this week] will address this problem.

 

[Condottiere]

Aslan - expand or die.

Vargr - expand and die.

 

[Endie]

We certainly have stereotypes and cliches and oftentimes those cliches are negative. This is part of humanity's subconscious habit of categorizing everything in terms of 'Us' and 'Them'. And, of course, most stereotypes have a kernel of truth buried in them somewhere.

What I object to in the case of the Aslan is the trivializing and infantilizing of the race. Vargr are stereotyped seriously ['Wolfman space pirates'], as are human cultures like the Vilani ['Corporate drones, but don't mess with them']. But the depiction of Aslan as children throwing a fit makes them more easily dismissable.

I'm hoping that the Aslan books coming out next year [as was announced this week] will address this problem.

I only know of one Aslan in the published material I own who "throws a fit" (In the Borderland Run) and he has an extremely good reason to do so. I don't know what your GM has done on these lines but there are a lot of canonical Aslan characters in Mongoose-published materials for whom "throwing a fit" or "childlike" behaviour would be entirely and jarringly out of character!

However, if you mean that they are touchy, proud and prone to what strikes us as extreme or violent over-reaction then the history of Samurai culture is replete with such documented examples, and whatever criticisms we may have of that culture, I don't think that "trivial" or "infantilised" would be applicable. As you will be aware, I could go through a lot of other cultures - particularly warrior cultures - where the same would apply.

On your other examples, I see the portrayal of Vargr (emotional, erratic, unstable, given to thievery) as far more "trivialising" than that of the Aslan. But I also like fun things so I have no problem with it, either!

 

[Garnfellow]

RAGE:
Sing, Goddess, Achilles' rage,
Black and murderous, that cost the Greeks
Incalculable pain, pitched countless souls
Of heroes into Hades' dark,
And left their bodies to rot as feasts
For dogs and birds, as Zeus' will was done.