If you ever wanted to know the origins of the concept for the Aslan...

[WHULorigan]

The Aslan are not as big as the Kzinti, they don't behave like the Kzinti, they don't have the same social structures as the Kzinti, there's essentially nothing in common except "kind of cat like alien".

And as I recall, the Kzinti are somewhat more vaguely "Tiger-like" than "Lion-like", at least in appearance.

But as far as inspiration goes we do have:

• " Kuzu " (= Kusyu) likely inspired by "Kzin"
• " Kilrai' " (= Kilane Subsector) likely inspired by "Kilrathi"

But other than that, they are culturally and behaviorally completely different.

 

[Yatima]

the Aslan don't act like the Kzinti

What's being argued is not that the Aslan are a direct lift of the Kzinti in all details, but that they are a primary inspiration for the Aslan.

J

 

[Sigtrygg]

Cat like aliens existed before the Kzinti.
Were the folks at GDW influenced by the Kzinti - likely yes.
Has the fanon and poor research introduced more Kzinti and Kilrathi like Aslan, most definitely yes.

 

[Vormaerin]

What's being argued is not that the Aslan are a direct lift of the Kzinti in all details, but that they are a primary inspiration for the Aslan.

J

okay. But the only thing they have in common is being felinoid space aliens. They aren't just not a direct lift, they have basically nothing in common. Their physiology is significantly different, their political structure is different, their gender roles are different, their honor code is different, their relations to humans are different.

Even if GDW guys said "hey, cat aliens! We should have some!" after reading Known Space, any attempt to link the Aslan to the Kzinti is not just meaningless, but counterproductive. Anything you read about the Kzinti beyond "cat alien" is simply wrong for the Aslan.

 

[Condottiere]

M'Ress Scenes & Other Moments

M'Ress Scenes & Other Moments from Star Trek The Animated Series.

 

[actionman]

M'Ress Scenes & Other Moments

M'Ress Scenes & Other Moments from Star Trek The Animated Series.

If she were really a cat person all she'd say is "Feed me. Feed me. Let me in. Let me out. I'm not going out. Feed me."

 

[actionman]

they have basically nothing in common

One could say the same for the Aslan and the Hani.

 

[Yatima]

okay. But the only thing they have in common is being felinoid space aliens. They aren't just not a direct lift, they have basically nothing in common. Their physiology is significantly different, their political structure is different, their gender roles are different, their honor code is different, their relations to humans are different.

Even if GDW guys said "hey, cat aliens! We should have some!" after reading Known Space, any attempt to link the Aslan to the Kzinti is not just meaningless, but counterproductive. Anything you read about the Kzinti beyond "cat alien" is simply wrong for the Aslan.

I'm not sure that's so. The Aslan and Kzinti are both felinoid, with warrior cultures that emphasise personal honour and a stark delineation between male and female roles in their cultures. In both cases, they did not discover the setting's star drive for themselves (the Aslan learning it from a crashed Solomani scout ship, the Kzinti stealing it from the Jotoki). Both races pose a threat to mankind because of the male thirst for land and an honourable name. There are more parallels.

In any case, while we can argue all day about whether this or that book is the primary inspiration for the Aslan – almost all of the traits above could be derived by looking at a pride of lions and extrapolating an alien race from that source, in which the appearance and roles of males and females differs greatly, the males are concerned mostly with dominating other males for access to breeding females etc.

I guess the real question is, why argue against the Kzinti being an influence? What's at stake? It'd be deeply strange if the Traveller authors had not read Niven and did not take some inspiration from those stories. Deeply strange. So this seems like a 'Yes and ...' situation to me rather than a 'No but ...'. Wouldn't you agree?

J

 

[Vormaerin]

I guess the real question is, why argue against the Kzinti being an influence? What's at stake? It'd be deeply strange if the Traveller authors had not read Niven and did not take some inspiration from those stories. Deeply strange. So this seems like a 'Yes and ...' situation to me rather than a 'No but ...'. Wouldn't you agree?

J

Because, as Sigtrygg mentioned earlier, it has been a constant problem with writers treating the Aslan like they are Kzinti. And the artists as well, with all these giant "Aslan" in recent Mongoose art.

Niven's pretty popular, so lots of Niven-isms get made into 'fanon', not just with the Aslan. And people talk about these things in magazine articles and fan discussion (which is fine as far as it goes), but then those things often end up treated as sources, either because those fans end up freelancers or that stuff is read and thought to be 'fact'.

That appears to be how the idea that you have to have a sentient on board to jump without error got into the Mongoose rules. It's likely why the Aslan in some recent art are half again as tall as the humans around them.

It's been a thing for decades. The Aslan are their own thing. They aren't Hani, they aren't Kilrathi, they aren't Kzinti. Obviously, if you want to lean heavily into one of those in your home game, no big deal. But it, unfortunately, been proved necessary to push back on that as some kind of community consensus because of just how popular the Niven and Star Trek Kzinti are. And I don't want the Aslan to become a third version of the Kzinti.

 

[Condottiere]

Function follows form.

They look like lions.

They act like lions.

 

[Sigtrygg]

"Early Terran explorers regarded the Aslan as "lion-like," and the simile has stuck ever since, although the Aslan bear little resemblance to Terrestrial lions. Nonetheless, this early misnomer has influenced a great deal of human thinking about the Aslan, including terminology (the use of pride to translate ahriy, for instance) and ascribed behavior-which is not at all leonine. The derivation of the word Aslan is unknown, but is sometimes credited to human explorers who first contacted the race*."

*Later it is revealed the original Terrans were Turks and the world aslan meaning lion, fearless, warrior

 

[Yatima]

Because, as Sigtrygg mentioned earlier, it has been a constant problem with writers treating the Aslan like they are Kzinti. And the artists as well, with all these giant "Aslan" in recent Mongoose art.

Sure, but that's no reason to argue that Niven's works did not inspire the aliens we find in Traveller when they clearly did. We can't ban discussions of this because people lean into the connection too hard.

If I have an issue with artistic representations of the Aslan, it's certainly not that they look like a Kzin (fan-folding ears, bare tails like a rat, appearance a lot more like tigers or other predatory felines than a lion). My issue would be artists straight up taking a male lion's head and plonking it on a humanoid body, so that we end up with Clarence the unfriendly space lion . All too common in recent years.

For my money, the Aslan depiction in DGP products was the best.

 

[WHULorigan]

For my money, the Aslan depiction in DGP products was the best.

Those were my favorites as well, along with some of the Keith artwork.

 

[Vormaerin]

Sure, but that's no reason to argue that Niven's works did not inspire the aliens we find in Traveller when they clearly did. We can't ban discussions of this because people lean into the connection too hard.

I guess I don't see the value of saying "This thing is probably inspired by this other thing with almost no resemblance except at the uttermost superficial level.".

What does anyone learn from "Aslan are inspired by Kzinti" (which is speculation, because no one involved has said so beyond "Niven is cool!") if there's not actually any meaningful overlap between them? It's just encouraging people to think there's something Kzinti-like in the Aslan. And there really isn't.

 

[actionman]

Clarence the unfriendly space lion

You've named my next Aslan character.

 

[Yatima]

I guess I don't see the value of saying "This thing is probably inspired by this other thing with almost no resemblance except at the uttermost superficial level.".

What does anyone learn from "Aslan are inspired by Kzinti" (which is speculation, because no one involved has said so beyond "Niven is cool!") if there's not actually any meaningful overlap between them? It's just encouraging people to think there's something Kzinti-like in the Aslan. And there really isn't.

I'd suggest that looking at all of the inspirations for these aliens is instructive – I'd hope that it encourages people to go and read about the Hani, about the Kzinti, see where the authors of Traveller where coming from and make their games better through a deeper understanding of the Urtext (while not taking it too literally, of course).

For me, RPGs like Traveller are a chance to play in the settings and stories I am familiar with from my science fiction reading, that includes literally playing in some licensed setting all the way to playing in the Travellerverse, which is a particular cake baked with lots of these ingredients.

I just don't see the sense in trying to insist that this is an isolated thing, in an isolated pocket, that references nothing else. That seems to me to cut Traveller loose from the rich inheritance of source materials it synthesises and simulates.

 

[Endie]

I guess I don't see the value of saying "This thing is probably inspired by this other thing with almost no resemblance except at the uttermost superficial level.".

What does anyone learn from "Aslan are inspired by Kzinti" (which is speculation, because no one involved has said so beyond "Niven is cool!") if there's not actually any meaningful overlap between them? It's just encouraging people to think there's something Kzinti-like in the Aslan. And there really isn't.

That's overstating a bit: it's not purely superficial. There are a couple of behavoural There are a bunch of similarities and we have a quote from Miller in this very thread saying that Niven was one of the influences on Traveller. People saying "they're K'zinti!" "No they have nothing to do with Kzinti at all!" are both doing the same thing all of us on this board are cursed with which is an inability to say "yeah, we're both part-right." This will also apply to this comment, before anyone points it out

The K'zinti are clearly an influence, as are other sources. There are several important aspects of their behaviour that match. And later writers for the game have leant into that rather too much on occasion because they've read Ringworld and haven't necessarily read early game supplements (not surprisingly with freelancers who don't have a year to immerse themselves in the hinterlands of this quarter's deliverable). To be honest, while I love Mongoose 2e, the art is often divisive and a bunch of the artists are the worst villains on this particular area, since Aslan portrayal has at times varied between nine-foot K'zinti and furry imagery .

Pure speculation on another subject but the Aslan/Turkish bit is, I bet, also a later justification for nabbing a bit from C.S. Lewis. Well-read sci fi/fantasy enthusiasts like the early game creators who didn't have Insta and Discord to distract them will also have had him on the reading list. The revision is a good in-game background to add, though.

 

[Sigtrygg]

"Early Terran explorers regarded the Aslan as "lion-like," and the simile has stuck ever since, although the Aslan bear little resemblance to Terrestrial lions. Nonetheless, this early misnomer has influenced a great deal of human thinking about the Aslan, including terminology (the use of pride to translate ahriy, for instance) and ascribed behavior-which is not at all leonine. The derivation of the word Aslan is unknown, but is sometimes credited to human explorers who first contacted the race."
The original CT Aslan alien module.

although the Aslan bear little resemblance to Terrestrial lions

behavior-which is not at all leonine

 

[ottarrus]

In a con panel Chuck Gannon described alien generation in the 70s and 80s something like this:

'Marc and GDW started with easy to understand aliens and they got progressively stranger. First the Vargr... basically 'werewolves'. Then the Aslan... samurai cats. Then the Zhodani... this fed players' paranoia. Then the Solomani... Nazi Gestapo paranoia. After that was the K'Kree... 'cows with guns'. The Droyne came next... 'the Ancients can't be **these** guys, right?' And lastly the Hivers... paranoia and a certain 'ick factor' taken to silly heights. It wasn't until all these guys were done that anybody thought of the Vilani beyond just what was in the 'Imperium' game box.'

 

[actionman]

these giant "Aslan" in recent Mongoose art.

They're big enough now to be inflatable yard decorations. That's why Aslan females do everything. The males are too big to get in the car.
I think in CT they were something like 2 meters tall and 100kg, slightly taller and stockier than the average human.