Hyperion Frustration

[Abraxus]

Hello all..

I have found many pics online of the Hyperion...My players have just taken control of one in my game...

anyways, they have a Theta model and i've been trying to match up its weapons with the pics but I can't! Most of the pics i've found are of the same type.... I'll describe them..

1 double barrel weapon at the top of the nose..
1 double barrel weapon at the bottom of the nose..
1 turret weapon on top of hull in front of bridge area
1 turret weapoin on top of bridge tower
1 weapon on port side of main hull
1 weapon on stb side of main hull.
1 turret just behind docking bays
1 turret above engines.
2 turrets at the lowest point of center of ship.

The Hyperion has the following weapons..
(Theta Model)
2 TL Heavy Laser Cannons
3 Medium Pulse Cannons
2 TL Medium Pulse Cannons
3 TL Particle Beams
4 Interceptors

I could chalk it up to variants...but most pics I find are of the same kind...and Theta is stupposed to be the most common variant...

And does anyone else find it weird that weapons that are claimed to be linked and boresight are no such thing? Ie: The weapons on the port and side, by picture, appear to be turrets..

Abraxus

 

[Morgan_Keyes]

If memory serves me:

Twin-linked Plasma: twin barrels at the fore
Pulse Guns: Larger turrets on the fore and flanks
Lasers: Outrigger pods
Particle Guns: Three smaller turrets (superstructure, hanger, engine)
Interceptors: Usually not visible

I don't agree with some of the fire arcs, and those on here know what my personal choice is for a source. In my view:

Plasma: Front
Pulse: Front/Right/Left, Front/Right/Aft, Front/Left/Aft
Lasers: Boresight (front or rear fireable perhapes)
Particle Guns: Turret
Interceptors: Front/Right, Aft/Right, Front/Left, Aft/Left

As always, YMMV.

 

[Sundog]

The fire arcs Mongoose ascribes are all screwed up. If you can, get ahold of the B5W system for a better set.

Or just wait a few days and I'll list them on this board, which might be easier.

 

[Abraxus]

------------------------------------------------------------------------------------
The fire arcs Mongoose ascribes are all screwed up. If you can, get ahold of the B5W system for a better set.

Or just wait a few days and I'll list them on this board, which might be easier.
-------------------------------------------------------------------------------------

I have the B5 wars system..I have consulted it...The Theta model they have is good for arcs..and i'm using it for the arcs..but the loadout is also different...most glaringly are the 2 aft Heavy Laster Cannons the B5Wars Theta Hyp has...Have these weapons been seen on the show? I see no evidence in pics...

Abraxus

 

[Traveller-61]

As an admitted B5 space combat fanatic (and with well used video tapes of the fights to prove it! ) I have never seen the Hyperion fire aft laser cannons.
Interestingly the old CE Babylon Project (EF Sourcebook) gave the Hyperion only forward firing HL cannons.

DW

 

[Dag'Nabbit]

...
The Hyperion has the following weapons..
(Theta Model)
2 TL Heavy Laser Cannons
3 Medium Pulse Cannons
2 TL Medium Pulse Cannons
3 TL Particle Beams
4 Interceptors

I could chalk it up to variants...but most pics I find are of the same kind...and Theta is stupposed to be the most common variant...

And does anyone else find it weird that weapons that are claimed to be linked and boresight are no such thing? Ie: The weapons on the port and side, by picture, appear to be turrets..

Abraxus

Exception to premise: You're wrong; the Theta only has 1 Twin-Linked Heavy Laser Cannon, 1 Twin-Linked Medium Pulse Cannon, and only one set of Tri-Linked Particle Beams. This may have been what you meant, but it appears from what you've written that the Theta has the following:

2xTwin-Linked Heavy Laser Cannons (=4)
3xMedium Pulse Cannons (correct)
2xTwin-Linked Medium Pulse Cannons (=4)
3xTwin-Linked Particle Beams (=6)
4xInterceptors (correct)

Just trying to clear up the conversation.

 

[Abraxus]

...
The Hyperion has the following weapons..
(Theta Model)
2 TL Heavy Laser Cannons
3 Medium Pulse Cannons
2 TL Medium Pulse Cannons
3 TL Particle Beams
4 Interceptors

I could chalk it up to variants...but most pics I find are of the same kind...and Theta is stupposed to be the most common variant...

And does anyone else find it weird that weapons that are claimed to be linked and boresight are no such thing? Ie: The weapons on the port and side, by picture, appear to be turrets..

Abraxus

Exception to premise: You're wrong; the Theta only has 1 Twin-Linked Heavy Laser Cannon, 1 Twin-Linked Medium Pulse Cannon, and only one set of Tri-Linked Particle Beams. This may have been what you meant, but it appears from what you've written that the Theta has the following:

2xTwin-Linked Heavy Laser Cannons (=4)
3xMedium Pulse Cannons (correct)
2xTwin-Linked Medium Pulse Cannons (=4)
3xTwin-Linked Particle Beams (=6)
4xInterceptors (correct)

Just trying to clear up the conversation.

Ack..you are right...I was trying to say that # of weapons "that are" firelinked...ie: 2 Heavy Laser Cannons "that are linked together"...I reread what I said and it is not what I meant to say..

Abraxus

 

[Enlightened Bystander]

Actually, the CGI is the Epsilon model. AOG's Sotf has th following description of the Epsilon:

though the Theta variant is the most common, the Epsilon is the one most people think about when they imagine a Hyperion....

The ship has two heavy and one medium pulse cannon forwards,
two lasers forward,
two medium pulse back

 

[ShadowScout]

Well, it all comes down to the take on the Hyperion...

Basically, the fact that AoG didn't do their best job there. And mongoose followed AoG's lead.

Now, in your campaign you can do what you want - either go with what is established, or make up your own interpretation. Like I often do (it also has the added benefit that players sneaking through game material find their conceptions quite in error sometimes, since the details in my universe often do not match what they can read in the published sourcebooks... adds an nice element of surprise, when both characters And players can't be sure what to expect from anything...)

But for the record:
(BtW, good views here: Hyperion five-view; and Hyperion perspective. Yes, they aren't the official mesh, but as close as one of the best fan-CGI artist could get, and very useful for any game involving Hyperion cruisers.)

1 double barrel weapon at the top of the nose..

CGI-extrapolation: Heavy version of the turreted weapons; usually Heavy Plasma Cannons or Heavy Pulse Cannons.
AoG Hyperion-Epsilon: Two Heavy Pulse Cannons
AoG Hyperion-Eta: Two Medium Pulse Cannons
AoG Hyperion-Theta: Two Medium Plasma Cannons
Mongoose Hyperion-Epsilon: Twin-Linked Heavy Pulse Cannons
Mongoose Hyperion-Eta: Twin-linked Heavy Pulse Cannons
Mongoose Hyperion-Theta: Twin-linked Medium Plasma Cannons

1 double barrel weapon at the bottom of the nose..

CGI-extrapolation: Not a weapon, but a sensor array!
AoG Hyperions: Ditto!
Mongoose Hyperions: Probably Sensors too, in spite of the drawing on p.119 EAFB

1 turret weapon on top of hull in front of bridge area

CGI-extrapolation: These are standard turrets, usually housing Medium Plasma Cannons or later Medium Pulse Cannons
AoG Hyperion-Epsilon: Medium Pulse Cannon
AoG Hyperion-Eta: Medium Pulse Cannon
AoG Hyperion-Theta: Medium Pulse Cannon
Mongoose Hyperion-Epsilon: Medium Pulse Cannon (boresight)
Mongoose Hyperion-Eta: Medium Pulse Cannon (boresight)
Mongoose Hyperion-Theta: Medium Pulse Cannon (boresight)

1 turret weapoin on top of bridge tower

CGI-extrapolation: These are standard turrets, usually housing Medium Plasma Cannons or later Medium Pulse Cannons
AoG Hyperion-Epsilon: Standard Particle Beam
AoG Hyperion-Eta: Standard Particle Beam
AoG Hyperion-Theta: Standard Particle Beam
Mongoose Hyperion-Epsilon: One of the Tri-Linked Particle Beams
Mongoose Hyperion-Eta: One of the Tri-Linked Particle Beams
Mongoose Hyperion-Theta: One of the Tri-Linked Particle Beams

1 weapon on port side of main hull
1 weapon on stb side of main hull.

CGI-extrapolation: These are standard turrets, usually housing Medium Plasma Cannons or later Medium Pulse Cannons; these side turrets are also refitted with some sort of Laser Cannons (most likely Medium Laser Cannons considering they didn't do that much damage to the Alexander) on some later Hyperion versions.
AoG Hyperion-Epsilon: Heavy Laser Cannons
AoG Hyperion-Eta: Medium Pulse Cannons
AoG Hyperion-Theta: Medium Pulse Cannons
Mongoose Hyperion-Epsilon: Medium Pulse Cannon (right/left)
Mongoose Hyperion-Eta: Medium Pulse Cannon (right/left)
Mongoose Hyperion-Theta: Medium Pulse Cannon (right/left)

1 turret just behind docking bays
1 turret above engines.

CGI-extrapolation: These are standard turrets, usually housing Medium Plasma Cannons or later Medium Pulse Cannons
AoG Hyperion-Epsilon: Medium Pulse Cannons
AoG Hyperion-Eta: Medium Pulse Cannons
AoG Hyperion-Theta: ignored
Mongoose Hyperion-Epsilon: ignored
Mongoose Hyperion-Eta: ignored
Mongoose Hyperion-Theta: ignored

2 turrets at the lowest point of center of ship.

CGI-extrapolation: These seem smaller then the standard turrets, probably Standard Particle Beams or Light Pulse Cannons
AoG Hyperion-Epsilon: Standard Particle Beams
AoG Hyperion-Eta: Standard Particle Beams
AoG Hyperion-Theta: Standard Particle Beams
Mongoose Hyperion-Epsilon: Two of the Tri-Linked Particle Beams
Mongoose Hyperion-Eta: Two of the Tri-Linked Particle Beams
Mongoose Hyperion-Theta: Two of the Tri-Linked Particle Beams

Most AoG Hyperions ignore the rear turrets, but have invisible weapons pods on the sides mounting:
AoG Hyperion-Epsilon: none
AoG Hyperion-Eta: Two Heavy Laser Cannons (front)
AoG Hyperion-Theta: Four Heavy Laser Cannons (2 front, 2 aft)
Mongoose Hyperion-Epsilon: Four Standard Missile Racks (2 front, 2 rear)
Mongoose Hyperion-Eta: Twin-Linked Heavy Laser Cannons
Mongoose Hyperion-Theta: Twin-Linked Heavy Laser Cannons

 

[frobisher]

Most AoG Hyperions ignore the rear turrets

They're probably interceptors (which are invisible systems on most AoG ships)

 

[Abraxus]

Well, it all comes down to the take on the Hyperion...

Basically, the fact that AoG didn't do their best job there. And mongoose followed AoG's lead.

Now, in your campaign you can do what you want - either go with what is established, or make up your own interpretation. Like I often do (it also has the added benefit that players sneaking through game material find their conceptions quite in error sometimes, since the details in my universe often do not match what they can read in the published sourcebooks... adds an nice element of surprise, when both characters And players can't be sure what to expect from anything...)

But for the record:
(BtW, good views here: Hyperion five-view; and Hyperion perspective. Yes, they aren't the official mesh, but as close as one of the best fan-CGI artist could get, and very useful for any game involving Hyperion cruisers.)

1 double barrel weapon at the top of the nose..

CGI-extrapolation: Heavy version of the turreted weapons; usually Heavy Plasma Cannons or Heavy Pulse Cannons.
AoG Hyperion-Epsilon: Two Heavy Pulse Cannons
AoG Hyperion-Eta: Two Medium Pulse Cannons
AoG Hyperion-Theta: Two Medium Plasma Cannons
Mongoose Hyperion-Epsilon: Twin-Linked Heavy Pulse Cannons
Mongoose Hyperion-Eta: Twin-linked Heavy Pulse Cannons
Mongoose Hyperion-Theta: Twin-linked Medium Plasma Cannons

1 double barrel weapon at the bottom of the nose..

CGI-extrapolation: Not a weapon, but a sensor array!
AoG Hyperions: Ditto!
Mongoose Hyperions: Probably Sensors too, in spite of the drawing on p.119 EAFB

1 turret weapon on top of hull in front of bridge area

CGI-extrapolation: These are standard turrets, usually housing Medium Plasma Cannons or later Medium Pulse Cannons
AoG Hyperion-Epsilon: Medium Pulse Cannon
AoG Hyperion-Eta: Medium Pulse Cannon
AoG Hyperion-Theta: Medium Pulse Cannon
Mongoose Hyperion-Epsilon: Medium Pulse Cannon (boresight)
Mongoose Hyperion-Eta: Medium Pulse Cannon (boresight)
Mongoose Hyperion-Theta: Medium Pulse Cannon (boresight)

1 turret weapoin on top of bridge tower

CGI-extrapolation: These are standard turrets, usually housing Medium Plasma Cannons or later Medium Pulse Cannons
AoG Hyperion-Epsilon: Standard Particle Beam
AoG Hyperion-Eta: Standard Particle Beam
AoG Hyperion-Theta: Standard Particle Beam
Mongoose Hyperion-Epsilon: One of the Tri-Linked Particle Beams
Mongoose Hyperion-Eta: One of the Tri-Linked Particle Beams
Mongoose Hyperion-Theta: One of the Tri-Linked Particle Beams

1 weapon on port side of main hull
1 weapon on stb side of main hull.

CGI-extrapolation: These are standard turrets, usually housing Medium Plasma Cannons or later Medium Pulse Cannons; these side turrets are also refitted with some sort of Laser Cannons (most likely Medium Laser Cannons considering they didn't do that much damage to the Alexander) on some later Hyperion versions.
AoG Hyperion-Epsilon: Heavy Laser Cannons
AoG Hyperion-Eta: Medium Pulse Cannons
AoG Hyperion-Theta: Medium Pulse Cannons
Mongoose Hyperion-Epsilon: Medium Pulse Cannon (right/left)
Mongoose Hyperion-Eta: Medium Pulse Cannon (right/left)
Mongoose Hyperion-Theta: Medium Pulse Cannon (right/left)

1 turret just behind docking bays
1 turret above engines.

CGI-extrapolation: These are standard turrets, usually housing Medium Plasma Cannons or later Medium Pulse Cannons
AoG Hyperion-Epsilon: Medium Pulse Cannons
AoG Hyperion-Eta: Medium Pulse Cannons
AoG Hyperion-Theta: ignored
Mongoose Hyperion-Epsilon: ignored
Mongoose Hyperion-Eta: ignored
Mongoose Hyperion-Theta: ignored

2 turrets at the lowest point of center of ship.

CGI-extrapolation: These seem smaller then the standard turrets, probably Standard Particle Beams or Light Pulse Cannons
AoG Hyperion-Epsilon: Standard Particle Beams
AoG Hyperion-Eta: Standard Particle Beams
AoG Hyperion-Theta: Standard Particle Beams
Mongoose Hyperion-Epsilon: Two of the Tri-Linked Particle Beams
Mongoose Hyperion-Eta: Two of the Tri-Linked Particle Beams
Mongoose Hyperion-Theta: Two of the Tri-Linked Particle Beams

Most AoG Hyperions ignore the rear turrets, but have invisible weapons pods on the sides mounting:
AoG Hyperion-Epsilon: none
AoG Hyperion-Eta: Two Heavy Laser Cannons (front)
AoG Hyperion-Theta: Four Heavy Laser Cannons (2 front, 2 aft)
Mongoose Hyperion-Epsilon: Four Standard Missile Racks (2 front, 2 rear)
Mongoose Hyperion-Eta: Twin-Linked Heavy Laser Cannons
Mongoose Hyperion-Theta: Twin-Linked Heavy Laser Cannons

I like your very good explanation of the weapons systems...But there's a few things I don't quite buy.....

1 - Invisible weapons pods/turrets...I don't like that concept...they have to appear somewhere...

2 - Interceptors - you didn't explain where they are..Are they invisible too?

Talk to you all later

Abraxus

 

[ShadowScout]

They're probably interceptors (which are invisible systems on most AoG ships)

Nope - for one, no interceptor has firing arcs matching those turrets, for another those few AoG versions where they proudly state they do match the mini have pulse cannons representing those turrets, and finally no weapon should be invisible in their fore indications yet be assigned CGI turrets in their rear-firing versions on the same ship - if the rear turrets are interceptors, the fore interceptors must be represented by turrets too.

I like your very good explanation of the weapons systems...But there's a few things I don't quite buy.....

1 - Invisible weapons pods/turrets...I don't like that concept...they have to appear somewhere...

2 - Interceptors - you didn't explain where they are..Are they invisible too?

1 - those are an result of AoG's Hyperion; and the fact that they tried to fit both the scenes where the side turrets fire cyan pulses in "Voice in the Wilderness" and red lasers in "Severed Dreams"; They assumed the turret is for pulses and the lasers came from somewhere nearby... enter their "side weapons pods" that unfortunately can't be seen on any CGI...

2 - not really invisible, but too small to see on a mesh; remember the interceptor guns on B5, one "interceptor" in any incarnation represents a bunch of these small quad-mounts grouped together into one system for simplification and to speed up in-game record keeping. So for every "interceptor" the hyperion theoretically has something like three to five tiny pop-up quad turrets that are scattered around the corresponding hull area.

At least that's what Agent-1 told me when I asked a very similar question ages ago (was when I was complaining about their Hyperion during 1st Edition, back then I already was annoyed by the lack of match between record sheet and mesh/miniature)

 

[Abraxus]

Ok..interesting thought on the hidden interceptors... so that springs up yet another question, one I posed a while ago..

If the turrets on top of the Hyperion are Pulse Cannons, then in Voices in the Wilderness II we see these pulse cannons being used to shoot down incoming fire from the enemy ship.

But.....Based on the rules i've seen, only the Interceptor weapons can shoot down enemy fire. So, does that mean that pulse cannons can also shoot down enemy fire? if not, then does that not mean that the top mounted turrets are indeed Interceptors? This seems to be a case of the rules not matching the show.

And speaking of Interceptors...I don't understand the 'Matrix Mode' effect of the Interceptor...I've never seen this in the show...I've only heard one possible reference...When B5 breaks from earth..at the beginning, the Hyperion classes forward 'Screens' were down...was this the "Matrix" screen, or just the forward interceptors? Perhaps i'm not looking close enough, but it seems to me like this Matrix mode came out of nowhere...

And boy, this Matrix mode sure makes Figthers attacking Capital ships useless as they could never beat the DR from the Matrix mode. I don't plan on using the Matrix mode effect unless i'm given good reason to in these posts.
Abraxus

 

[Tegman]

Yes, it would be nice to hear the storie where the matrix-mode came from. I don't deduct the extra DR in matix-mode when fighters attack, at least not when they make a attackrun on the ship and fly really close, I assume that they fly under the energyscreen.

Furthermore, since fighters can get really close, they halve the DR on large ships that they attack, so they'll have a chance of hurting them.

That's just my houserules for handling it.

 

[ShadowScout]

If the turrets on top of the Hyperion are Pulse Cannons, then in Voices in the Wilderness II we see these pulse cannons being used to shoot down incoming fire from the enemy ship.

But.....Based on the rules i've seen, only the Interceptor weapons can shoot down enemy fire. So, does that mean that pulse cannons can also shoot down enemy fire? if not, then does that not mean that the top mounted turrets are indeed Interceptors? This seems to be a case of the rules not matching the show.

It get's worse - if you watch "Severed Dreams" you can see even Omega's shooting down incoming fire with pulses from their bow turrets!
So, while it may not yet be in Mongoose's rules, Aog rules had many bigger weapons capable of "intercepting" too. Of course, usually you'd be stupid to do so, as the chance to intercept from big guns wasn't big enough to be of equal value then say any hit from the same weapon, and you'd have to wait for the weapon to recharge in either case. But that's "screen evidence" for you...

Basically, the Hyperion turrets Are Pulse Cannons, and they Can shoot down incoming fire, in both CGI and AoG rules.

As for the "Matrix Mode"... I'm not sure, but I think it was Mongoose's way to represent the "Energy Web" that WB and BP gave earth vessels to explain that one scene at the beginning of "Severed Dreams" where it is said about the Alexander about the Clarkstown: "her forward Interceptors are down, we can punch through the hull..." or something like that. So it followed that for this scene to work, interceptors must have some definite and important effect in a ship's defense, even against things like Laser Beams which aren't usually interceptable. AoG tried their EW rules where active Interceptors create an "to-hit chance lowering" Energy Web. I suppose Mongoose sees it this way. Though I'm not happy about it... however, we'll see if they change that too when they do an Real space combat system - I still see the system they have right now as "quick fix" so people can play space combat in their campaigns, to be replaced as soon as they have the time to work out something better, and thus don't get annoyed whenever one of it's shortcomings pops up (Structure, Interceptors, strange weapon damage values, etc.)

The interpretation of allowing fighters at zero range to "fly below the effect" makes a lot of sense, as EA ships evidently aren't invulvnerable to fighters in the show.

Personally I perfer to use a modified version of B5W for my campaigns anyway; and will continue to do so until I find or invent something better...

 

[Abraxus]

What modified version do you use? I'm interested in knowing what you do.

Abraxus

 

[Dag'Nabbit]

Ditto regarding fighters being able to fly below the level of the matrix affect of interceptors.

And Shadowscout's got it right about the bigger guns being able to intercept. AoG set up the basic combat principles within the B5 universe and Mongoose is following in their footsteps. Though in this case they chose to ignore the little fact that these weapons can also intercept. I think mostly because they wanted to speed up the process of combat for the D20 system.

For more fun, and I'm sure complicated, combat wait for the upcoming battlesystem that Mongoose is planning on releasing sometime next fall I think.

 

[ShadowScout]

What modified version do you use? I'm interested in knowing what you do.

Mostly adding lots of house rules, and changing the to-hit calculations for skill-based rolls. I'm also in the slow, slow process of changing just about every single SCS to better represent my idea on how those ships should have been done - and to make sure the players can't rely on their B5W knowledge. Some ships get weaker, some get stronger, as game balance is no longer a consideration (after all, it's now in the hands of the GM - me. And if I want the Minbari to be a lot scarier then in B5W, well...)

 

[psyclonejack]

Furthermore, since fighters can get really close, they halve the DR on large ships that they attack, so they'll have a chance of hurting them.

So, A single SA23 Starfury, 4 attacks, 8 damage rolls, halves the DR of large ships? Hmm that means that lets say a Hyperion DR 18 would be 9. Now lets take the average of the damage of the weapons (16)x2,(8)x6. That means that one starfury in 3 seconds can dish out 20 points of damage. Now we apply that to a squad of 7. 140 average points in 3 seconds. 500hp means the Hyperion can last 12 seconds in combat, or 4 rounds. 2 rounds (6 seconds) if two squads of starfuries focus on it. 3 squads 1 round (3 seconds).

Using that logic, B5 didn't need Delenn to show up with some Sharlins. They should have mopped the floor with those other two Omegas, less than 10 seconds.

Just the way I see it,
PsyJack

BTW: I Don't mean to be snippy, but the always take 1 point of damage no matter the DR is IMHO a bit more Functional, saves on dice rolling at the table, speeds up game play, and easier math.

 

[Green X Lantern]

Not to be nitpicky, Psyclone Jack, but I think that the rules state that the Starfury can only use one weapon system at a time, so it would only be (16)x2. You have to also remember that the Hyperion wouldn't be sitting there taking the hits. It would be firing back, much to the detriment of the attacking Starfuries.

On the other side of the coin, I would have thought they would have included some type of advantage to fighters, beyond getting below the E-Web. Otherwise why would every major race, *including* the Vorlons, deploy fighters? To combat other fighers? Circular logic. From what I've seen from the show, fighters can really do some damage on the captital vessels they attack. Perhaps having the DR is the way to go...

Green X Lantern