Hydrans

Nomad said:
Hydran ships - fusion ships in particular - are meant to be ineffective at range but lethal close in. The gatlings are a critical part of that, and always have been. If you nerf them at short range, what is the Royal Hydran Navy for?

I agree Hydran fusion ships are meant to be lethal up close. But there is a subtle point to be made. What makes them lethal up close in FC is less the fusions and gatlings. It is that they are so cheap.

If you take a fusion cruiser and compare it to a Fed Cruiser in FC they both do very similar (non overload) damage at range 0, 1 and 2. The hydran having a very slight edge at 0 and the Fed at 2. But overall they are the same up close at ranges 0-2. The Fed is significantly better at ranges beyond that. Hydrans are not really lethal close up on a ship vs ship basis.

Because they are so cheap though you get to take more of them, or spend points on stingers. You can take 4 hydran cruisers to 3 cruisers of anyone else. That gives you a ship worth more of extra firepower and more 'ship' for the enemy to take out.

It'll be interesting to see how they handle that. I certainly don't mind the hydrans being nore lethal per ship if they are costed right. That would presumably make them very expensive if carrying a full fighter complement (and stingers are to probably far too cheap in FC).
 
Storey, I do recall seeing SVC's 'list of regrets', IIRC including, amongst other things, the Jindarians, the Positron Flywheel, the Ion Cannon and the Temporal Elevator.

The Gatling was not on that list. I'd remember if it was.

The Gat has been in the SFU since 1980. SFB E 2.15 describes it as it as 'a particularly vicious weapon' and that's from my copy of Commanders' Edition, vintage 1983.

If SVC had wanted to change it, he's had ample opportunity.

Bear in mind that removing killzone from gatlings does not mean they are not useful offensively, it just means they are not some 'I win weapon' because I happen to get 2" away

At best, a Hydran ship will centreline her target and get 8 gatling shots (always assuming she does not have to use/retain some for defensive fire and does not lose any to damage). A centrelining Lyran CA only gets only half that...but will have more PH-1s and, at that range, ESGs. A Klingon who allows a Hydran to get that close - and hasn't burnt off some Hydran phaser power with drones - fully deserves what comes next.

The Hydrans should not be an auto-win fleet (they certainly are not in SFB or FC). But I'd like them to have *some* chance.

Balance their ships by increasing their points cost by all means - that's what the points values are for. Don't randomly castrate them because it's fun to do.

I'm possibly a bit sensitive on this, having gone through the same debate during the early days of FedCom (Hydrans? nah, drop the gats to a single Ph-1! or a single Ph-3! Not to mention the original joke playtest hellbore. The gat eventually emerged into FedCom unchanged from SFB). We are an 'unpopular' empire - SVC noted in an email that he sells fewer Hydran SL2400 ships than any other fleet - so there are no end of gamers who think it's cool to think up nerfs for us. And yes, after playing this fleet for 20 plus years, I *do* take it way too personally.
 
I left dodge in with my fighter rules because otherwise as soon as you get to range 18, well outside the range fighters can engage, you get hit by phaser-1s on a 3+ and die, and disruptors nail you out to range 24 on a 4+. With dodge a two disruptor battery will still have reasonable odds of nailing a damage 2 fighter and should on average kill a damage 1 fighter (assuming a 4+ dodge).

I don't think fighters can survive to the point where they can engage without dodge reducing attrition. As I've pointed them at the moment you are paying about 100 points per flight, which is pretty substantial. Taking dodge and I'd drop that to 50 points or so to represent what they're worth in a fleet environment.
 
It is that they are so cheap.

Discounting their fighters, true. Personally, I think using carriers without their fighters is an abuse (In ACtA:B5 they were factored into the ship's priority level, which solved that problem. I'd gladly make Hydran fighters compulsory).

And the damage comparison at knife range is valid - *if* the Hydran can reach knife range. Hydran ships have no advantages in speed or agility over their historical opponents - in fact, most MY Hydran ships are rather slower - so disabling them before they get to range 1 is the enemy's tactical challenge. Given their low speed, the fighters act as a ball and chain, so a 12" move in ACtA is probably excessive, I'd suggest 9"...or, go back to early B5 and have them fire 'after' ships. So they soak up defensive phasers but few of them survive to shoot (very SFU).

APEing to knife range in ACtA is likely to be a splendid way to receive an overloaded salvo from the next enemy ship to move.
 
Include fighters in the points value of the ship, with options after to change the fighter type (downgrade to Stinger 1s or Stinger-Fs etc) and points adjustments.
 
Nomad said:
The Hydrans should not be an auto-win fleet (they certainly are not in SFB or FC). But I'd like them to have *some* chance.

Balance their ships by increasing their points cost by all means - that's what the points values are for. Don't randomly castrate them because it's fun to do.

I'm possibly a bit sensitive on this, having gone through the same debate during the early days of FedCom (Hydrans? nah, drop the gats to a single Ph-1! or a single Ph-3! Not to mention the original joke playtest hellbore. The gat eventually emerged into FedCom unchanged from SFB). We are an 'unpopular' empire - SVC noted in an email that he sells fewer Hydran SL2400 ships than any other fleet - so there are no end of gamers who think it's cool to think up nerfs for us. And yes, after playing this fleet for 20 plus years, I *do* take it way too personally.

Hydrans were my favourite empire from SFB days, and were in FC until the Andros turned up.

I'm don't want hydrans to have some chance, I'd want them to have a ~50% chance. I'm not randomly looking to castrate them.

As I keep noting though, there are a number of factors that affect balance, you can't just look at weapons in isolation and get to attached to them. This is a different game system. Make fusions to potent whilst keeping gatlings as a straight port, add in stingers, and you have something that will cream enemy ships, especially if they don't need the special actions to do that, freeing them up for APE. They have hellbore ships in the wings. They are well protected from drones and plasma (i.e. all current empires), which in itself is going to be an interesting thing, how will that affect balance. Given how effective phasers are against plasma compared to FC then Gorns and Roms are going to struggle unless gatlings are somehow different (or they change the whole phaser/plasma interaction).

I'm not a mini player, so make no comment on who buys which ships. But despite being a hydran fan, I recognise that in FC the fusion hydrans are somewhat OP, they are easily one of the top dogs in a tourney and are damned hard to beat in non tourney games. I had to laugh when the online tourney had a rule in that required to you take a fusion ship (to stop the all hellbore fleet) - no one wanting to win the tourney takes an all hellbore fleet, they go for the all fusion fleet. I've won games with them where I've hardly fired a fusion - that just feels wrong that you'd rather fire everything else before your heavy weapon even when you are at its best range. I really would like to see the fusion be the short range weapon of choice and not the gatling. Plus the gatling has been somewhat problematic beyind hydrans (be it LDR, Orions, Escorts etc).
 
carriers now come with a full complement of their operating faction's "default" fighter type as standard.

I like this, and the ship's point values should reflect it. A Ranger cruiser with a full Stinger2 loadout is about 33% more costly than a Klingon D7 in FedCom.

I left dodge in with my fighter rules

I like this too.
 
Lee, we can argue past each other all night. The only way to resolve this will be playtesting. If fusions and gats carry all before them, fair enough - but I'd still rather see that addressed through the points values rather than by fiddling with the stats.

Thanks for the stimulating debate, goodnight.
 
Nomad said:
The only way to resolve this will be playtesting. If fusions and gats carry all before them, fair enough - but I'd still rather see that addressed through the points values rather than by fiddling with the stats.

That did not work out very well for Battlefleet Gothic with the Necron fleet. That fleet simply crushed all opposition and the response was to greatly up the points and tweak the victory point system rather than simply toning them down, a solution that really satisfied nobody. The Necrons still crushed people but the VP's were so stacked that the Necron player couldn't win on points if they lost 1 cruiser while blasting half the opponents fleet into dust. It simply wasn't a fun game for either party.

As others have said, this is not SFB or FC and while the racial flavor needs to stay the same, how things work (and how effectively) need not match other than generally as long as the gaming portion remains fun and balanced.
 
Nomad said:
Storey, I do recall seeing SVC's 'list of regrets', IIRC including, amongst other things, the Jindarians, the Positron Flywheel, the Ion Cannon and the Temporal Elevator.

The Gatling was not on that list. I'd remember if it was.

The Gat has been in the SFU since 1980. SFB E 2.15 describes it as it as 'a particularly vicious weapon' and that's from my copy of Commanders' Edition, vintage 1983.

If SVC had wanted to change it, he's had ample opportunity.

At this point, it's not so straightforward.

For one thing, SPP is the current lead designer for SFB; SVC still runs FC, F&E, Star Fleet Marines etc., though SVC retains the final prerogative on decisions concerning the SFU as a whole.

For another, there is a lot of momentum (or, perhaps, inertia) behind the current set of rules among the active SFB community, to a far greater extent than what you may find among the FC fanbase. When the suggestion came up that some of the ideas which emerged in FC might be worth considering in SFB itself (such as doubling the move cost for going in reverse, or eliminating the superstack), the outcry on the BBS was quite vocal, enough to bury the idea pretty much outright.

For good or ill, the kind of rules flexibility which is in play for the younger games like FC and ACtA:SF is essentially off the table for SFB (at least in the Alpha Octant), so that game is more or less stuck with the current rules for things like superstacks, movement costs... and phaser-Gs.

But that does not mean that the newer games should be similarly ossified so readily.

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Look, it's one thing to feel passionate about an empire you're emotionally (and financially) invested in; we're all here because we care about the universe, even if our specific focus can vary from one area to another.

But at this point, none of us are in a position to place any authority on our ideas. For all we know, Matthew has his own set of concepts he's come up with in order to handle the Hydrans (and their Stingers); and even those would still need to be revised, playtested, revised again, and ultimately rubber-stamped by ADB before they can be formally published.

With that in mind, it's probably not worth getting too deeply into the heat of the argument right now, when there'll be plenty of time to dig into the "real" rules when the first batch of playtest materials start to surface in public.

Of course, that might sound a bit rich from a guy who finds it hard to ever shut up about all things non-Alpha; but even with those, I'm all too aware that until (or unless) any of those get the nod at some future point, there's not a whole lot I can do other than post my ideas and hope at least some of them help if/when the time is ripe.

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So, for what it's worth (i.e. not much of anything, really), I still think carriers should be forced to pay for their fighters. It'd make setting the point costs of the ships easier, and allow for scenarios where ships are dragged into action before they have been able to replenish their fighter squadrons. (It's cleaner to have the base cost and not add the fighters, than to have the "full" cost and have to cut back down for each affected ship.)

And I'm still not too sure about Dodge; but what if direct-fire weapons lost the Accurate Trait when shooting at fighters instead? That would make it that much more awkward for ships to try and phaser down enemy fighters at long range, while putting a premium on using drones or other weapon types (which can be targeted via defensive fire before they impact). Plus it would be a blanket rule for all fighters, and thus avoiding the need to work out which Dodge score would be appropriate for which class of attack craft. (There is no equivalent value for fighters in SFB, and fighters in NA don't always have a direct correlation between their Dogfight and Dodge scores.)
 
I find Bens fighter rules very good, however I am not sure over a couple of things:

Having slightly different move rates for different fighters is a good thing IMO unless all SFU fighters move the same rate.

Dodge is a fun mechanic in terms of allying players to interact :)

Dogfight and Dodge are different things and should remain so :)

It would not be a bad thing for fighters ot be costed seperatly - or at lest upgraded versions as this also allows for helping out with the incovenient left over points in fleet creation.
 
Don't expect that any balance issues are going to be fixed by adjusting point values. Steve Cole has stated that he wants all games under the Star Fleet Universe banner to be consistent with each other. If Ship A is twice as many points as Ship B in one game, then it will be twice as many points in every game. The point values are already established (read "set in stone") in SFB, Fed Com and F&E. Any problems with balance will have to be resolved by adjusting stats or by adjusting rules to fit.
 
I really don't think its the points are fixed in ston for the desired consistency across the SFU, its consistency in the ships' content they are looking for - the points for ACTA are different than for SFB and most of the errata in ship stats have been fixing ships to match the ACTA expression of stats to be proper translations of their SFB and FC SSDs.
 
dix said:
Don't expect that any balance issues are going to be fixed by adjusting point values. Steve Cole has stated that he wants all games under the Star Fleet Universe banner to be consistent with each other. If Ship A is twice as many points as Ship B in one game, then it will be twice as many points in every game. The point values are already established (read "set in stone") in SFB, Fed Com and F&E. Any problems with balance will have to be resolved by adjusting stats or by adjusting rules to fit.

Sorry but that does not work in any sense

The games work differently so ships are worth different amounts - we already constrained that the weapon loads/arcs etc have to match previous SFU ships so there is very little room for adjustments to ship stats.

You can't have it both ways.
 
I stand by my argument. (Although, in retrospect, I realize my choice of words reads arrogantly-which I had not intended.)

Obviously, we are talking about a different game system which will impart its own differences. As a result, there will be some small difference in relative point values of ships compared to those from another system. However, major differences in the game systems that result in play balance issues are not going to be fixed by fiddling with points because, as I said previously, the points are already set.

Points could be "fine tuned", as it were (indeed, the ACTASF Errata has already demonstrated this) but if the Hydrans do turn out to be super-wicked-awesome-unbeatable, then it is not going to be the points that are changed. Its going to be the rules (or possibly the ship stats*) that get changed. This is as it should be. After all, ACTASF is supposed to be the Star Fleet Universe as viewed through the prism of ACTA.

*I mention changing the ship stats as it is a viable option for adjusting play balance. Obviously, extreme care must be taken in fiddling with these. The numbers and disposition of weapons and systems cannot be changed as those are "set in stone" as well. However, the other less well defined stats, such as damage and shields, can be adjusted up or down to make a ship more or less easily destroyed. This is, in my opinion, a less favourable option-it is better to get play balance right by fixing rules rather than ships.

Of course, this is all just so much speculation as we have not even seen the Hydrans in ACTA yet!
 
well, that did show though on Plasma's - far to easy to counter due to the Phaser/Plasma interaction - still like the 'killzone' option mentioned by Billco (or was it scoutdad), but don't see that being taken up.

I'm not used to a crusier shooting down a trop strike in SFB/FC, but it's easy in ActA. Then again, energy bleed is a good mod on the plasma bleed (though i have looked at a slight option - 4" bands, with 0-4" with +1 AD - you end up with 0-4/5-8/9-12/13-16). Plasma R fired at 0-4 become a nightmare to stop.

(and yes, this is a Hydran thread - but i'm bais, Gorn all the way).

In this regard, Fusion and Gattlings will need looing at closely - especially gattling, as a ship becomes Plasma (or drone) proof unless worked right.
 
The points of SFB/FC ships maybe set in stone in those games, and the weapons, shields etc may be in any SFU game. But the points are the points for the system that is representing the SFU. Each system may well have its own way of calculating those that bear no resemblance to the other games. The points values are NOT part of the SFU as such. There are some badly pointed ships in FC, and I wouldn't expect ACTA to be forced to follow that guide. Fusion Hydrans and stingers are amongst those that are probably badly pointed, as in too cheap in FC. You get a fast moving heavy cruiser for less than light cruisers of other empires, indeed close to destroyers of some empires. The nearest FedCom Lyran ship (points wise) to a hydran fusion heavy cruiser (ranger/mohawk) without stingers is the DW that I can think of.

That being said, I expect that if the sytems are a reasonable repesentation of the original game then it is likely that the relative points of various ships won't differ that much, where the points in SFB/FC are roughly right to start with. Otherwise points are going to be where balancing is done once the systems themselves are roughly right.

E.G. In FedCom the D5 is 118 points, the D5W is 148. That is 25% more. Yet in this game they are 175 and 185 respectively, a 6% difference. The D5 is one of those ships that is often seen as being badly pointed in FedCom, and we can see that the point value of the ACTA D5 has been noticeably increased. They haven't changed the stats to ensure it remains a really cheap ship (it would be about 150 in ACTA relative the D5W if they were keeping the points the same).

It may or may not be that Hydrans need a relative points increase in this game. Even ignoring weapons, each game is so different in mechanics that what may be good in one game may not be in the other game. Playing in FC on a fixed map like you'd be playing in ACTA would usually see the fusion hydrans wipe out most others, the system makes it very hard to avoid close range or escape from something that has closed and wants to stay close on a map with fixed boundaries. In ACTA that may or may not be the case. Whilst I haven't played ACTAS for a while, it always felt easier to some extent to close in ACTA without getting shot up first, but it is also more dependent on an initiative system which has no real parallel in FC, and whilst a ship may close quick, it can also find itself left behind quickly as well. In FedCom getting overload shots was relatively easy if you got your timing right (which wasn't hard), in ACTA getting overloads in is harder due to the special action requirement and whole intiative/move system.
 
Had a brainstorm last night on hellbores. Obviouslly range and damage can be tweaked and it should have the overload and reload traits, but the real mechanic of issue is the shield penetrating trait of the weapon.

Shieldbore. A single volley of hellbores that hits a target with damaged shields that also has a total damage equal to or greater than the remaining shield strength instead applies half its damage to the shields and half as straight internals.
 
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