Hyborias Fallen - Initial Impressions
- Thread starter MadDog
- Start date
The King
Cosmic Mongoose
I agree in someway but I prefer a on-topic thread where everyone is entitled to give his/her opinion. If WotC would let this happen they would deserve respect.Azgulor said:
I mean his comments was pondered and his expressed only what displeased him.
I had the impression that a kind of witch-hunt had begun.
"Without the freedom to blame, there can't be no flattering prises" (said once Beaumarchais)
If you want the official reason for the Temptress class, blame me. back in the mists of time at Mongoose Hall when we were discussing the forthcoming series of chracater class books we wanted a series of 3 and had 8 classes. that left a slot free. I figured the girls were getting short changed by not having what is just as iconic a character type in Hyboria as said Barbarian. We decided on the name Temptress.
I like the idea now as much as I did then, and frankly any Temptress without a whip is like a barbarian without an axe. Sure it's a cliche. As has been said Hyboria is loaded with them. In fact, Howard created many of the cliches of fantasy we are now so familiar with.
As for the nymph text business, I think sometimes you can read too much into a piece of text. I've come to know Vincent well and he doesn't do sleaze. :wink:
I like the idea now as much as I did then, and frankly any Temptress without a whip is like a barbarian without an axe. Sure it's a cliche. As has been said Hyboria is loaded with them. In fact, Howard created many of the cliches of fantasy we are now so familiar with.
As for the nymph text business, I think sometimes you can read too much into a piece of text. I've come to know Vincent well and he doesn't do sleaze. :wink:
toothill man
Mongoose
thank you old bear so if you want :? blame the bear and if you do I wish you luck at A+E as he is a big bloke whos into historical fighting so you have been warned and are very much on your own :shock: :wink: :lol:
toothill man
Mongoose
as mongoose halls is in the middle of the red light area of swindon he is in the right place :shock: :wink: :lol:
Yogah of Yag
Mongoose
THIS SHOULD BE INSCRIBED IN STONE:
Mr. V. Darlage respects Howard's works.
I respect Howard's works.
Therefore, I respect Mr. V. Darlage's works.
Simple, infallible logic.
8)
If something is in REH's Conan works, I hope to see it (or expect to see it) in the RPG, even if it goes against our post-modern, alarmist, politically correct, totalitarian mores and values. The day Mongoose has no interest in respecting REH's work, I'm looking elsewhere for materials, and spending money elsewhere. I think I speak for many of us. Right?
Mr. V. Darlage respects Howard's works.
I respect Howard's works.
Therefore, I respect Mr. V. Darlage's works.
Simple, infallible logic.
8)
If something is in REH's Conan works, I hope to see it (or expect to see it) in the RPG, even if it goes against our post-modern, alarmist, politically correct, totalitarian mores and values. The day Mongoose has no interest in respecting REH's work, I'm looking elsewhere for materials, and spending money elsewhere. I think I speak for many of us. Right?
Yogah of Yag
Mongoose
The King said:Perhaps such stones would even deal more damages, who knows?Yogah of Yag said:THIS SHOULD BE INSCRIBED IN STONE:
Mr. V. Darlage respects Howard's works.
I respect Howard's works.
Therefore, I respect Mr. V. Darlage's works.
Simple, infallible logic.
8)
Huh? :shock: :?
Damage to whom?
toothill man
Mongoose
howards work is not pc and has alot that rubs but even if you are not going to use it someone wanting to stick to canon might,vincent is a walking data base on conan and never want pc ideals to water down the essence of conan which vincent and lynch find and give to us.
The King
Cosmic Mongoose
It was in regard to another thread (Howard as a PC).Yogah of Yag said:The King said:Perhaps such stones would even deal more damages, who knows?Yogah of Yag said:THIS SHOULD BE INSCRIBED IN STONE:
Mr. V. Darlage respects Howard's works.
I respect Howard's works.
Therefore, I respect Mr. V. Darlage's works.
Simple, infallible logic.
8)
Huh? :shock: :?
Damage to whom?
More seriously I don't disagree with you, but respect without criticism is called worship.
It is sound to evaluate something with the objectivity of several minds.
Raven Blackwell
Mongoose
Mongoose Old Bear said:
Okay. As I guessed Vincent wasn't behind the class but was given the assignment by you.
True- but if his almost finacee Ms. Price's book is to believed REH tended to throw the sultry woman in to increase the chance of editors of the time to buy his material than literary value. Well, that and that absurb facination some guys have about out of control lesibans......
But as the consumer resistance here might prove as Howard as it may be a Temptress doesn't translate well in a vital part of a RPG system. RPGs like video games lend themselves to combat more readily than other aspects of fanatsy fiction- with the possible exceptions of magic, fantastic locales and political intrege as well.
There are magazines for that people- even a book called The Book of Erotic Fantasy that can be found if you want d20 sleaze. And if you want fantasy themed smut I imagine you dig deep enough into the wrong places you can find it. It's a pretty filthy world out there right now.
Raven Blackwell
Mongoose
The King said:
Oh, I have to borrow that quote.....it's a beauty. 8)
Yogah of Yag
Mongoose
"respect without criticism is called worship."
...and worship is for those weak minds who cannot fathom Science.
...and worship is for those weak minds who cannot fathom Science.
Honestly, though what Mad Dog raises is pretty much on point, despite the tone he used.
When does being such a hot piece of a$$, give a person near spell like powers?
Its not the supernatural powers thing that bothers me. If it was the whip issue by itself, I would of just rolled my eyes and moved on. However, when in combination with the Nymph fluff, I begin to wonder if my money is well spent on Mongoose products considering the rocky editing and proofing.
I find it almost painful to see Vincent strive for something and at the same time have it so totally undermined by some cheezy choices and text. Painful for me, Vincent and Mongoose. The rest of the book is fine (as I said in my initial review) and I am not going around demanding a refund or unrighteously slamming Mongoose or Vincent left and right.
So allow me to defuse some of this (seeing that this thread has gone 3 page and I havnt gotten past the first page).
Vincent, I apologize for not respding to your initial response in its entirety. I apparently posted without reading part of your response, which is unfair to you. I normally do not do that, and for that I apologize. Second, I shouldnt post angry, which is what I did. Allow me to retract the "trash" adjective and replace it with "fluff".
In any case I just want to say that I really appreciate the dedication and devotion put forth by Vincent to this and to the fact he reads and answers emails all the time. Three cheers to that!
I agree.
Mad Dog
When does being such a hot piece of a$$, give a person near spell like powers?
Its not the supernatural powers thing that bothers me. If it was the whip issue by itself, I would of just rolled my eyes and moved on. However, when in combination with the Nymph fluff, I begin to wonder if my money is well spent on Mongoose products considering the rocky editing and proofing.
I find it almost painful to see Vincent strive for something and at the same time have it so totally undermined by some cheezy choices and text. Painful for me, Vincent and Mongoose. The rest of the book is fine (as I said in my initial review) and I am not going around demanding a refund or unrighteously slamming Mongoose or Vincent left and right.
So allow me to defuse some of this (seeing that this thread has gone 3 page and I havnt gotten past the first page).
Vincent, I apologize for not respding to your initial response in its entirety. I apparently posted without reading part of your response, which is unfair to you. I normally do not do that, and for that I apologize. Second, I shouldnt post angry, which is what I did. Allow me to retract the "trash" adjective and replace it with "fluff".
In any case I just want to say that I really appreciate the dedication and devotion put forth by Vincent to this and to the fact he reads and answers emails all the time. Three cheers to that!
I agree.
Mad Dog
Obviously, everyone is entitled to their opinion. I don't think argo or I disputed that. Once I have the book I might agree with MadDog.
I want to reiterate I have not called for a boycott of the product. My overall review is neutral. Why I dont like the execution of elements of the Temptress, the rest of the material is basically fine.
I won't speak for argo but I was taking issue with how MadDog chose to express his dissatisfaction. To me, it read as all emotion and too little considered criticism. The fact that it was needlessly condescending to an author that actively supports the fan base on these boards just made it worse.
I made a mistake of cutting and pasting only part of Vincents intial response before respinding myself. My bad, for which I have already apologized.
Yet, at the same time, while a lot of the material is fine, I seriously question some of the Temptress material due to what I consider very poorly made choices of wording and intent. For example, was a whip ever used in a combat scene in any REH stories ? Why is the Nymph included if it has no REH relationship whatsoever ? Why the very "fluffy" Nymph text that appears at best, silly ? Vincent, from his past efforts, is capable of much better.
Yeah, MadDog is entitled to his opinion that Hyboria's Fallen was a disappointment to him. I'm equally entitled to my opinion that he expressed his disappointment poorly and could have handled things much differently.
Yes, I was pissed off.
Mad Dog
I want to reiterate I have not called for a boycott of the product. My overall review is neutral. Why I dont like the execution of elements of the Temptress, the rest of the material is basically fine.
I won't speak for argo but I was taking issue with how MadDog chose to express his dissatisfaction. To me, it read as all emotion and too little considered criticism. The fact that it was needlessly condescending to an author that actively supports the fan base on these boards just made it worse.
I made a mistake of cutting and pasting only part of Vincents intial response before respinding myself. My bad, for which I have already apologized.
Yet, at the same time, while a lot of the material is fine, I seriously question some of the Temptress material due to what I consider very poorly made choices of wording and intent. For example, was a whip ever used in a combat scene in any REH stories ? Why is the Nymph included if it has no REH relationship whatsoever ? Why the very "fluffy" Nymph text that appears at best, silly ? Vincent, from his past efforts, is capable of much better.
Yeah, MadDog is entitled to his opinion that Hyboria's Fallen was a disappointment to him. I'm equally entitled to my opinion that he expressed his disappointment poorly and could have handled things much differently.
Yes, I was pissed off.
Mad Dog
If you want the official reason for the Temptress class, blame me. back in the mists of time at Mongoose Hall when we were discussing the forthcoming series of chracater class books we wanted a series of 3 and had 8 classes. that left a slot free. I figured the girls were getting short changed by not having what is just as iconic a character type in Hyboria as said Barbarian. We decided on the name Temptress.
In and of itself the Temptress class, while (IMHO) dangerously close to a prestige class, is not inherently flawed. However, IMHO, the execution of some elements of the class are. THe descriptions and elements of the class, combined with numerous pictures of partially-clad women give the impression that the whole class is designed as a lure for 13 year old boys. It seems to reinforce the women-as-sexpots stereotype as opposed to some of the better REH strong women characters such as Belit or Red Valeria. Thats the real shortchanging.
Lets take a poll: those of you who bought the book and explained the contents to your gaming buddies; how many "rolling eyes" look did you get when you explained the Temptress class to them ?
I like the idea now as much as I did then, and frankly any Temptress without a whip is like a barbarian without an axe. Sure it's a cliche. As has been said Hyboria is loaded with them. In fact, Howard created many of the cliches of fantasy we are now so familiar with.
It too cliche. And its not even REH-ish. Sure, whips were in some REH stories, but were they ever used in combat (not that I recall, although I might of missed it)? The whip is out of place, and it undermines the attempt to make the class serious. A barbarian uses an axe to fight. Barbarian-> needs to fight -> learns axe. On the other hand, the Temptress is a "face" character, not combat oriented at all, so where would the impetus be to learn such an otherwise odd weapon as the exotic whip ?
As for the nymph text business, I think sometimes you can read too much into a piece of text. I've come to know Vincent well and he doesn't do sleaze.
Considering the picture that accompanies the description, are you telling me this seriously ? Lets assume you are, and consider the class for a moment. Am I _really_ supposed to believe that in the Hyborian age, an age of violence where the veneer of civilization rubs thin, that we have beautiful women who scamper about naked in the woods ? With whips ?
Mad Dog
In and of itself the Temptress class, while (IMHO) dangerously close to a prestige class, is not inherently flawed. However, IMHO, the execution of some elements of the class are. THe descriptions and elements of the class, combined with numerous pictures of partially-clad women give the impression that the whole class is designed as a lure for 13 year old boys. It seems to reinforce the women-as-sexpots stereotype as opposed to some of the better REH strong women characters such as Belit or Red Valeria. Thats the real shortchanging.
Lets take a poll: those of you who bought the book and explained the contents to your gaming buddies; how many "rolling eyes" look did you get when you explained the Temptress class to them ?
I like the idea now as much as I did then, and frankly any Temptress without a whip is like a barbarian without an axe. Sure it's a cliche. As has been said Hyboria is loaded with them. In fact, Howard created many of the cliches of fantasy we are now so familiar with.
It too cliche. And its not even REH-ish. Sure, whips were in some REH stories, but were they ever used in combat (not that I recall, although I might of missed it)? The whip is out of place, and it undermines the attempt to make the class serious. A barbarian uses an axe to fight. Barbarian-> needs to fight -> learns axe. On the other hand, the Temptress is a "face" character, not combat oriented at all, so where would the impetus be to learn such an otherwise odd weapon as the exotic whip ?
As for the nymph text business, I think sometimes you can read too much into a piece of text. I've come to know Vincent well and he doesn't do sleaze.
Considering the picture that accompanies the description, are you telling me this seriously ? Lets assume you are, and consider the class for a moment. Am I _really_ supposed to believe that in the Hyborian age, an age of violence where the veneer of civilization rubs thin, that we have beautiful women who scamper about naked in the woods ? With whips ?
Mad Dog
