Hull question

[Jak Nazryth]

On smaller ships, 100-400 tons, it is quite easy in any extended fight to reduce a hull to 0.
Obviously per the hit tables, any further hull hits go to structure.
My question is about the hull as an envelope. When a hull is reduced to 0, does the hull simply "disappear"? I know it sounds stupid, but the rules state "you have no more hull when it is reduced to zero".
So, will my players be looking directly out into space between a grid of structural members?
Does it matter if you have a self-sealing hull? Or is the ship completely decompressed no matter what if the hull is reduced to 0? Can you go through a reentry sequence and land on a world with any standard atmosphere?
Or is this "no more hull" condition simply a combat term. You actually still have plenty of hull plating to provide an atmospheric envelope, but it has simply reached it's stress limit for damage, and all other damage simply gets absorbed by the ships structure...

Also, this is bending the Mongoose logic, but... Buried in one of the paragraphs, the rules state that a ships weapons will do 50 times the damage if fired at a person. Logically then a personal sized weapon will be divided by 50 if shot at a ship.
Since a ship with no armor allows all damage to go directly to the hit table, (ship weapon damage rolled-zero = number of hits on the damage chart) what happens if a personal sized weapon is fired at a ship with no armor? Per the rules, a personal sized weapon can do at least 1 point of damage and roll on the damage table, since no damage is removed by armor.
So... I say that a standard hull has to have at least 1 point of "armor", especially since it has to protect vs standard micro meter impacts, dust, etc...
Or am I over thinking this issue?

 

[smiths121]

Hello,

This is covered in Mercenary page 73 (probably in the Mercenary SRD as well).
Summary as written:
Only laser and energy weapons can be used to attack starships. Total damage dice is divided by 50.
First weapon does full damage dice, additional weapons add half their dice rounded down.
The example in the book shows 122d6 of damage becoming 2d6 of damage and then armour is removed. To calculate dice.

To generate the 122d6 to 12 FGMP-14, 20 laser rifiles and a TL14 AT gun. This is quite a lot of firepower.

Hope this helps, even if the explanation is rubbish - least I've pointed to the book

 

[barnest2]

In terms of hull damage, I think the point is that when the Hull reaches 0 there are several large holes in the hull, and the ship is beginning to become structurally unsound. Its not that its all gone, its just that there isn't enough of it left to have much effect on incoming fire.

 

[Jak Nazryth]

So to the point.
Does a ship with hull zero become completely depressurize IYO, even though it might have a self-healing hull and can it reenter an atmosphere with gaping holes opening directly to the outside?
Anybody not in a vacc suite will be dead in a single combat round if this happens, including crew, passengers, pets, etc...
My group of players and I have discussed this in the past, without a consensus.

 

[Rusty_Unycorn]

IMTU, Self-Sealing only works against tiny hits, like the holes left by a micrometeorite. Low enough damage from a weapon might be sealable, but past a certain point the damage is too much and the decompression starts. Just keep in mind that the iris valves will automatically close if they sense vacuum on the other side.

 

[locarno24]

My question is about the hull as an envelope. When a hull is reduced to 0, does the hull simply "disappear"? I know it sounds stupid, but the rules state "you have no more hull when it is reduced to zero".
So, will my players be looking directly out into space between a grid of structural members?
Does it matter if you have a self-sealing hull? Or is the ship completely decompressed no matter what if the hull is reduced to 0? Can you go through a reentry sequence and land on a world with any standard atmosphere?
Or is this "no more hull" condition simply a combat term. You actually still have plenty of hull plating to provide an atmospheric envelope, but it has simply reached it's stress limit for damage, and all other damage simply gets absorbed by the ships structure...

The hull doesn't disappear, don't worry. But it has been bust open - that's why you're now taking 'internal' hits. Someone on the bridge is probably yelling "hull breach on deck 2" and one or two consoles have exploded.

Yes, some bits of the ship have probably decompressed. But structure hits aren't decompressing important bits of the ship - drive hits mean you've struck the engineering compartment, turret or bay hits the weapons compartments and bridge hits speak for themselves. Unless you cause a crew hit you've obviously not suffered damage where anyone currently is. Generic structure damage means you've lost power to the starboard hot-tub or the espresso machine. Vented Corridor sections. Storage lockers. Things like that. Its probably interesting when trying to do repairs after the fact but it's not going to matter during the battle.

Nothing says you can't land a damaged ship, but my response would be that landing a ship qualifies as

• when the characters are in danger.
• when the task is especially difficult or hazardous.
• when the characters are under the pressure of time.
• when success or failure is especially important or interesting.

And therefore I would make you make a Pilot skill check to land, even at a spaceport, whereas in the normal course of the game I wouldn't. Landing a ship that's been shot up to the point of hull breach is clearly going to include the risk of malfunction and crash.

Also, this is bending the Mongoose logic, but... Buried in one of the paragraphs, the rules state that a ships weapons will do 50 times the damage if fired at a person. Logically then a personal sized weapon will be divided by 50 if shot at a ship.
Since a ship with no armor allows all damage to go directly to the hit table, (ship weapon damage rolled-zero = number of hits on the damage chart) what happens if a personal sized weapon is fired at a ship with no armor? Per the rules, a personal sized weapon can do at least 1 point of damage and roll on the damage table, since no damage is removed by armor.
So... I say that a standard hull has to have at least 1 point of "armor", especially since it has to protect vs standard micro meter impacts, dust, etc...
Or am I over thinking this issue?

No real guidance. But the thing is, whilst a lot of weapons shouldn't be able to do one damage to an unarmoured hull, quite a few should. If Imperial Security has 'asked' you to stay in port, a squad of marines with FGMPs should be able to make a right mess of a nominally 'unarmoured' hull.

Personally, I'd ignore any personal scale fire hitting a ship, armoured or not, unless it's from a distinctly 'anti-tank' type weapon - FGMP, ARMP, missile launcher, etc.

 

[Rusty_Unycorn]

Generic structure damage means you've lost power to the starboard hot-tub or the espresso machine.

That's not a Generic hit! Hitting the coffee machine is as bad as hitting the fuel tanks or the engine!
That's why I have an entire dTon dedicated to coffee making. Usually put in 4 or 5.
*coughI'mjokingcough*

 

[Captain Jonah]

Traveller starship hulls are a sort of magic/handwavium damage absorber.

I think of them this way.

The hull is a laminate. The outer most layer is a light but strong alloy designed to take a few knowks and bumps, inside that is a series of layers of anti radiation sheeting, balistic absorbing fibres and ablative foams. Hits on the hull by impact weapons penetrate the outer shell and go through the layers. Each layer of balistic fibre absorbs more of the impact but does so by spreading the impact energy across a large area. After a few hits in one area large parts of the hull can be stripped of balistic protection because of impacts in nearby areas disrupting and deforming the protective layers.

Laser hits do the same with the ablative foams or gels. A single laser hit vaporises a large area of the foam/gel disipating the energy of the laser hit because it is absorbed by the vapourised cloud. However over a few hits large areas of foam have been used up and those areas become vulnerable to repeated hits. Since any hi speed kinetic round carries a lot of heat with it and any laser will dump enough energy into the structure of the hull to create a significant kinetic shock both types of defence are lost at the same time.

On a small ship the tiny surface area means that a hit or two can deplete the layers over half the ship hence a 100Dton ship with hull 2 takes one missile and one laser and the hull is gone. It may only have one hole 2m across where the missile hit and a 5m long by 10cm wide cut where the laser hit but the hull is now unable to futher defend the ship as its defensive layers are gone.

Armour is also layered but it uses hard layers of kinetic and energy disipators rather than ablatives. Under the outermost layer of tough alloy are layers of ultra conductive metals to spread energy hits across large areas and flexible layers of other alloys and memory metals to deform under kinetic impacts, spread the shock across a larger area to prevent penetration then flex back into shape ready for the next hit. In this way unless you suffer a massive structural failure beneath the armour and sections of armour buckle or collapse your armour keeps working till the bitter end.

Ships hulls do not need to be armoured, a micro impact that punches through the outer hull should be absorbed by the balistic fibres, the engineer may speend a few days crawling between the hull layers fixing it afterwards but thats why sensible people don't become engineers :lol:

Hull 0 ruins streamlining and Aero types but as long as you have structure left the inner scafolding that keeps your ship in shape will do its job and you can still fly, it may be a bit drafty though :lol:

Once you have no structure left you are sitting inside a pile of rubble. The ship may explode, it will most likely buckle and twist if still under power, on board systems fail as frames and bulkheads colapse cutting power to most parts of the ship. Corridors and rooms become blocked as walls and ceilings come crashing down or fold in.

Its about this time you hope your engineer A. Survived, B. was in his suit and C. has some skill in damage control :shock:

Re coffee. Well some of us have been known to allocate a low berth or two to keeping those all important supplies fresh, that includes the coffee beans 8)

 

[AndrewW]

That's not a Generic hit! Hitting the coffee machine is as bad as hitting the fuel tanks or the engine!
That's why I have an entire dTon dedicated to coffee making. Usually put in 4 or 5.
*coughI'mjokingcough*

You should put it in a vault then.

 

[SSWarlock]

Traveller starship hulls are a sort of magic/handwavium damage absorber.

I think of them this way.
<snip>

Nicely done, Captain Jonah. Your explanation just became part of my campaign docs.

 

[Jak Nazryth]

One of the best (if not only) scene from a movie or show of hull repair was from the Movie "Event Horizon". That scene was a great illustration of a hull breach, and the subsequent repair attempts.

Dittos on the coffee!