Howard, Tolkien and Lovecraft Comparative Studies (III)

[Raven Blackwell]

Well, thank to Damien we're on three. Damien- tell you what. Keep your negative view of me on the PM line okay? I don't apprciate lectures. WHatever you opinion of me is- choke on it. Oh and P.S. you're off my mailing list.

 

[taylor]

Might I also suggest that you Raven, leave out your own personal beliefs, criticisms of other people's beliefs, and all the black magic stuff and actually talk about the topic? Then it might stay open, which would be good as it's actually an interesting topic.

 

[The King]

I find it highly entertaining to know something of people we are corresponding with on this forum.

I love the freedom of expression, especially at this time.

To all I recommand the movie Spartacus (with Kirk Douglas) about a slave revolt in the Roman Republic. Rome senators are all corrupted and this corruption enabled the coming of Caesar who proclamed sometime later a dictatorship (empire).

In fact this is my reproach of Tolkien's and Howard's stories. There are good developments of heroic deeds and we have some political insights (especially with Conan who seize the throne) but there are no court intrigues as such.

That is why I particularly like the Robert Jordan pastiche "Conan the triumphant" where the king dies and all the possible candidates (nobles and military officer) want to be crowned and provoke thus a civil war in the kingdom of Ophir.

In Middle earth however there is nothing like coups (even though there was a brief civil war in Gondor with the kinstrife) and all the powers in place seem to reign forever. This is what is particular with Tolkien. There is a big fight of good vs. evil but noone ever contests the position of the king of Rohan or Gondor and even among the elves, the respective positions are accepted by all.

Concerning Lovecraft: on the contrary to what was developped afterwards by Lumley, there never was any connexion or hierarchy between the elder gods excepted Azazoth and his messenger Nyarlathotep.

 

[Mark Dunder]

With Tolkien it's usually you and me against the evil. With Howard it's usually just me against the evil. Individually, Tolkien's characters do not have to be able to do everything by themselves, there can be weak characters. Conan is able to handle the problem all by himself, usually.

Doesn't matter with Lovecraft as far as I can tell, your abilities are pointles and can't help you much anyway. It's all just so horrifying! I've got the game by Chaosium (CoC), but have never played it, so my opinion is not worth much here.

But the technology level between the Third Age of Middle Earth and the Hyborian Age, are quite similar. This makes the characters somewhat comparable in both worlds.

 

[toothill man]

know its not lovecraft but I like lumleys take on the mythos with titus crow 8) that part man part elder killing machine 8)

about protests the ents had a right go at a neighbour who whent bad and if the status of both sides have never changed how come no ent wives :shock: also the first rising the evil side used were wolves and vampires that had been wiped out by time the ring war is going as had all but one balrog/dragon.

but on the whole a valid point about change and a veiw I had not thought on so thank you. 8)

 

[Raven Blackwell]

Might I also suggest that you Raven, leave out your own personal beliefs, criticisms of other people's beliefs, and all the black magic stuff and actually talk about the topic? Then it might stay open, which would be good as it's actually an interesting topic.

Why that was almost polite. Strange to hear that tone from you taylor. Did it take the destruction of two topics to get the fact that I don't like to be insulted across? I won't start anything, but if anyone gets mouthy, the Romans did invent the number IV.

 

[toothill man]

it is a intreasting thread lets keep it that way guys their is a good debate on the nature of fantasy join it not bury it please 8)

 

[taylor]

Why that was almost polite. Strange to hear that tone from you taylor.

Aw, I'm just a polite guy. :lol:

Did it take the destruction of two topics to get the fact that I don't like to be insulted across? I won't start anything, but if anyone gets mouthy, the Romans did invent the number IV.

Nobody likes being insulted Raven, that's my point. You have strong beliefs, that's great. I'm sure you are articulate enough to share what shapes your perspectives without insulting the beliefs or opinions or culture of others.

 

[Mark Dunder]

The truth is I never really compared these three authors together. Their styles seem all too different.

My take on Hyboria, Middle Earth, and Freaky Friday, is that Hyboria is more real than Middle Earth, and Freaky Friday is just freaky and not real at all.

I mean, I like powerful gods and all that, but gods that could care less if we exist at all? I'm just way too arragant to swallow that.

 

[The King]

Middle earth is a mixture between myth and reality. For once the elves of Middle Earth enter reality from the myth, made war against Morgoth and Sauron and departed again after the war of the ring leaving the men alone in their own reality.

There is something like this in the short story "The frost-giant's daughter" from Howard where Conan travels between myth, dream and reality.

 

[Raven Blackwell]

There is something like this in the short story "The frost-giant's daughter" from Howard where Conan travels between myth, dream and reality.

I always suspected that Atali drew Conan's soul out of his body at the begining of that story and he was traveling in a dream realm between Life and Death.

 

[René]

There is something like this in the short story "The frost-giant's daughter" from Howard where Conan travels between myth, dream and reality.

I always suspected that Atali drew Conan's soul out of his body at the begining of that story and he was traveling in a dream realm between Life and Death.

I thought that, too, but the veil in the end...

 

[The King]

There is something like this in the short story "The frost-giant's daughter" from Howard where Conan travels between myth, dream and reality.

I always suspected that Atali drew Conan's soul out of his body at the begining of that story and he was traveling in a dream realm between Life and Death.

It is the way humans perceive it because they are mortal. This is also the viking myth of the Valkyrie.

There is some hints in Tolkien words about this when he wrote that the Elves of Middle Eath grow weary when they stay too long among the mortals because this (our) world is always in movement brought by the rapid cycles of life, death and rebirth that can be best represented by the 4 seasons.

The elves however never know such things and Rivendell and Lorien and Mirkwook (before being corrupted by Sauron) stay the same and unchanging, i.e. trees don't loose their leaves.
That is also why the elves and all the others immortal races of the legends are lured in this ever changing world.

And this is also why there is some much passion in men, Conan being the greatest example.

But the Frost-giant's daughter is also like the myth of the sirens luring mariners to their doom. At least so we say. Who knows? Perhaps these are lucky guys welcomed in the realm of immortality.

In fact we don't have much legends where mortals enter this wonder realm and come back again in the mortal realm but there is an excellent book on the subject: "The King of Elfland's Daughter" by Lord Dusany (who also was active during World War I).

 

[Mythos]

There is something like this in the short story "The frost-giant's daughter" from Howard where Conan travels between myth, dream and reality.

I always suspected that Atali drew Conan's soul out of his body at the begining of that story and he was traveling in a dream realm between Life and Death.

I thought that, too, but the veil in the end...

There's enough stories, and films, out that this is not really all that much of a problem. The Nightmare On Elm St. films are a good example of people being able to bring object from one plane into another.

The only problem that I have with Conan either dreaming or astral projecting in the story comes from the mention by one of the men who found him. He states that they followed Conan's tracks in the snow. Not something that you would expect if the action took place in a non-physical realm. Of course, Atali's presence may have caused an area of altered reality and the area may have reverted, with the physical evidence, back into normal reality when she disappeared.

 

[Mark Dunder]

Atali's presence may have caused an area of altered reality and the area may have reverted, with the physical evidence, back into normal reality when she disappeared.

How can this be duplicated in a role-playing game? Would it change your stats?

Conan killed her brothers, did they die permanently? I'm wondering if the alter state allows some of the more "real" gods to be vulnerable to mortals, giving PCs the chance to affect them.

Would other PCs not "invited" in, see this realm? Could they interact if not "invited" by the god/goddess? Is there a time difference?

How would you guys go about doing this?

 

[Raven Blackwell]

The only problem that I have with Conan either dreaming or astral projecting in the story comes from the mention by one of the men who found him. He states that they followed Conan's tracks in the snow. Not something that you would expect if the action took place in a non-physical realm. Of course, Atali's presence may have caused an area of altered reality and the area may have reverted, with the physical evidence, back into normal reality when she disappeared.

Or that Conan's body was essentially 'sleep-walking'- recreating the actions in his dream in the physical world even though there were no Atali or Frost Giants there. That would explain there being only set of tracks. The veil was a sort of 'it was a all dream- or was it?' moment to give it a Twilight Zone twist at the end. It could be something drawn across the dream realm into the physical by Conan's spirit- or Atali and the Frost Giants coul dhave been materialized spirits that that leave no tracks or trace of their presence.

Atali's presence may have caused an area of altered reality and the area may have reverted, with the physical evidence, back into normal reality when she disappeared.

How can this be duplicated in a role-playing game? Would it change your stats? How would you guys go about doing this?

Now you've gone and done it. I was in the process of making my own version of Atali as a physical being for the Dark Horse Conan Sourcebook and now I have to stop and wonder if I should make her a Spirit instead of a native Outsider. *sigh*

I've used the old Shadowrun rules for astral projection as a base before in d20. What I do is say your physical stats are replaced by your mental ones. In spirit form your Intelligence replaces Dexterity, your Wisdom replaces Constitution and your Charisma replaces Strength. A character's spirit form's Attacks Bonuses, Hit Points, Skills Checks etc. are all affceted and are recalculated by these new characteristics. The reality about you becomes a mirror of the landscape about you with subtle differences caused by the magical 'background' of the place as it were. The creatures there are those that live in the spirit world- from spirits to wraiths to Lovecraftian oddities like Dholes. The spirit world and the physical can 'overlap' for period of times- one of my best Ravenloft adventures involved an abandoned village that drew people into a recreation of the events that destroyed it with the wraiths of the inhabitants seemingly as real as the player characters. Beyond that I usually wing it using all the RL and literary sources of horror I've enjoyed over the years.

 

[Mark Dunder]

I like Raven's idea about replacing physical stats with mental (or spiritual, if you use these) stats.

How do you explain the bit of gossamer clutch in Conan's hand, not spun on human distaff?

 

[Raven Blackwell]

It was created by the spirit Atali out of the same material she created her 'body' from. A powerful enough Spirit can manifest objects like a powerful enough Sorcerer can- the Tower of the Elephant is the product of a Yaggite sorcerer after all and it's construction is not made by human hand either. Conan just managed to nab the veil before Atali de-Manifested in a spectacular way. Likely the veil dissolved shortly there after as the Power used by Atali to create it faded.

 

[Mark Dunder]

Like everything in Conan's world, once a god/godling manifested themselves, they could be affected by physical objects. Conan realized this early on. I also think you're right about the gossomer dissolving.

I think the gods would just go back to their realm after being killed in the physical world, to answer my own question.

I just had to get this all straight in my head.

Thanks for your help Raven.

 

[Raven Blackwell]

Glad to help. Now however I'll have to make rules on astral travel for Conan. Ah, will my creative mind never give me rest? 8)

Like your Avatar by the way.....