Howard, Tolkien and Lovecraft Comparative Studies (III)

[Mark Dunder]

Actually, I envy yours, and most everyone elses also. My logon is attrocious, I gave no thought to it, and picked my Avatar as it was somewhat relevant to my name. Can't do much about it now, but it's not that big a deal.

Thanks for you kindness about my Avatar. In my next life I will pick something much better and glorious, like yours.

 

[Zul Daire]

Do Balrogs have wings?

 

[The King]

Do Balrogs have wings?

This is the great question. Unfortunately I don't have have War of the rings currently.

The other great question is the following: do Tolkien elves have pointed ears?

 

[toothill man]

balrogs are currupted earth spirits so guess no wings the elves are to look beautiful and delicate dont think papa says about ears but could be wrong. :shock:

 

[The King]

I can't remember Tolkien writing they had pointed ears. I think this anatomical details come from Dungeons & Dragons.

 

[Bregales]

There've been some cool ideas shared on this thread! I had the idea when reading Tolkien that he might have been influenced by the (modern) influence of the Great Chain of Being; that elves, the Maiar, and other beings holding physical form were actually influences of the order of angels.

I hadn't really considered this to be part of Howard at all until reading the exchange regarding "The Frost Giant's Daughter" but may have to reconsider that now.... :idea:

 

[Bregales]

To all I recommand the movie Spartacus (with Kirk Douglas) about a slave revolt in the Roman Republic. Rome senators are all corrupted and this corruption enabled the coming of Caesar who proclamed sometime later a dictatorship (empire).

I don't remember if you had brought it up originally, but The Decline And Fall of the Roman Empire by Edward Gibbon was brought up in this forum and when I remembered I had 3 mouldy volumes on my bookshelves (Washington Square Press s/c ed.1962, abridged by D.M. Low) I decided to pick it up and start. As I'm the slowest living reader on Earth at the moment, I'm very early on, but find the book(s) a great read and would recommend them also.

 

[Raven Blackwell]

I hadn't really considered this to be part of Howard at all until reading the exchange regarding "The Frost Giant's Daughter" but may have to reconsider that now.... :idea:

My version of Atali is coming up after I post part II of Aerie in the Dark Horse Conan Sourcebook so you'll see my take on her soon enough. 8)

 

[Mark Dunder]

I believe that Tolkien actually drew some pictures of elves having pointed ears. I'm not 100% sure, but my wife says so. She's usually right.

 

[toothill man]

I believe that Tolkien actually drew some pictures of elves having pointed ears. I'm not 100% sure, but my wife says so. She's usually right.

know the feeling :roll: can anyone back the claim with a link or two 8)

 

[Mark Dunder]

My wife says she never said that, that I'm hearing things again, and forced me to take my pills again.

As you have probably guessed, she caught on to my libeliousness, and has corrected me.

 

[toothill man]

thats got too hurt :twisted: :shock:

 

[The King]

I don't know if Tolkien ever painted people. I have "the hobbit" deluxe version from Houghton Mifflin Company with some of his painting and he represented many natural sceneries.

 

[Mark Dunder]

Two books we have, "The Hobbit" published by Ballantine, has pictures of a Hobbit on a floating barrel. Also "Mr. Bliss" by Houghton Mifflin, is a book done entirely by Tolkien right down to his own handwriting and illustrations. My wife assures me they are by Tolkien.

I going to have to get up in the middle of the night, so I can lambaste forth again!

 

[toothill man]

its exspensive but the I will stay at home as you shop dear works well too 8)

 

[Etepete]

Ethereal or Corporeal: A dualist division between matter and spirit is very much a rather contemporary western innovation. We're not sure how earlier cutlures reasoned, but the bible at least is very hands on. God lives in a tent. Evil people get punished in the valley of Gehenna. Later generations have explained these rather awkward positionings as symbolic, but there's no reason to assume they were intended as such.

In the same way, old Norse wights: Draugar, would actually tangibly live in their mounds, which could be entered physically. And Midgard was divided from Jotunheim by a narrow stream which could be crossed.

So there's no reason to assume a division between spirit and matter as a default. Events can be mythical and divine without being ethereal. In fact, I think that this grittier kind of mysticism actually adds to a grim world like Conans. And you can always leave the players unsure as to what actually happened, like REH do us in the Atali story.

So I'd do Atali corporeal.

Elves and Balrogs: The balrog is described as having flailing wings of shadow and darkness. Whether this is an illustration of its appearance or actual description is uncertain.

Elves are described as having slightly "leaf-shaped" ears in the hobbit i think, but certainly nothing like D&D pointy-ears.

 

[The King]

Atali is corporal of course.
But the whole is should be considered as if you were looking at your own dream and could access it physically for a while. This is the same as the Valkyrie myth because only the dying warrior can see her and probably have physical contact.

This is very curious. As if you would enter another realm while staying at the same place. The material plane is still there but you have no more sensation of it (as to the vision, scent, etc.) and leave it all to the other realm.

This is where the frontier between the conscious and subconscious is no more and progressively inversed.

 

[Mark Dunder]

But the whole is should be considered as if you were looking at your own dream and could access it physically for a while.

In the Wheel of Time series, there was a place of dreams that you could be physically in, because you could be killed. A character called Brigette, an Archer, was actually taken out of the world of dreams and put into the real world. They called it Tellamond or something like that.

 

[Etepete]

It doesn't have to be another world though. I'm talking about gods and ghosts living in the real world.

...or not the real world, the game world I mean....

 

[Bregales]

Oh Lord, if that don't-kill-the-cash-cow/long-winded Jordan is being mentioned again then I have to play defense and bring in Tom Robbins -- in Skinny Legs and All his catalysts Can o' Beans, Dirty Sock, Spoon, Painted Stick and Conch Shell traverse half the world on a hejira to Jerusalem--where Conch and Painted Stick will resume religious duties in the Third Temple, dedicated to Astarte. And the protagonist's transformation through the Dance of the Seven Veils brings forth Isis and the feminine gods which have been condemned through the centuries by the priests of the male-dominated religions. The book's interpolations between the Jewish and Arab co-owners of a bar across from the U.N. is amazing in light of the world's current events.

Then again, Robbins' books are about good, wild sex, so that in itself is a great reason to read them all, oh that and his amazing questions about freedom, religion, spirituality, farce, decadence and transcience. Good stuff, give em a read when you need to rest your eyes from Jordan. :wink: