How would the Picts react...

[Maximo]

...to PCs deciding to set all of the Pictland ablaze.
Last game I ran, PCs came up with such an idea after the Picts ravaged an outpost they wanted to defend (while they weren't there). As it stands, PCs thought setting the woods on fire so Picts wouldn't be able to use them for their hit-and-run tactics. Also, it would disminish Pictish lands, which they thought could be a fine punishment (and they are fanatic Mitrans, so setting those heretics ablaze will not make them flinch).
Thank god they don't have napalm :lol:

Game followed with them spending most of their hard won money to enlist a small mercenary army as backup and to make sure they can both burn more land (with about fifty archers and their incendiary arrows) and be safe from Pictish retaliation since they will start the fires from outside the woods, that is, in open fields where their cavalry and pikemen could make a difference. Plus, they want to attack the forests only during day so they can return to campsites far from the woodland before it is dark (to avoid ambushes).
Players want to use hit-and-run, and will try to avoid engaging Picts for the most part.

How would Picts react? Sure they won't like this!
I thought it can be likely that Pictish tribes unite to make a serious joint strike at the westermarchers and all other neighbours for making the spirits angry :twisted:

Will this lead to war?

BTW, incidentally, PCs started with this tactic in Zingara, where one of them is a noble and didn't took Pictish assaults against friendly lands well... but then they moved to the Westermarch to set new fires (without their mercenaries, of course).
Will this have further political ramifications? Will they be considered as traitors wanting to make Aquilonia enter a war with the Picts?

 

[Mark Dunder]

You give too much money to your players.

People need to eat too. The order of the day was generally to burn down the woods so crops could be planted. This was a common way of clearing the forest, nothing new about that. The forest is huge, it is huge! Take a long time to burn enough to really affect the Picts. No doubt forest fires are not terribly uncommon from lightning strikes. Besides, the forest also is the home of many animals the settlers need to survive on. Burning the forest won't help them any in the long run.

Making treaties, trading, treating the Picts as humans (or at least pretending to), is the only real way of dealing with them. Later on when you got them cornered and outnumbered and converted to your religion, you can force them onto reservations, and such. Particularly if they have much gold just lying around that you need. Diseases like small pox is another great way of dealing with Picts, just leave a pile of nice blankets that had recently been wrapped around people that have died from a few diseases. Kill three birds with one stone, get rid of the blankets, pretend charity by giving away free blankets, and then get rid of the Picts.

Boy, them Picts are in a heap of trouble!

 

[Thoth Aw C'mon]

...to PCs deciding to set all of the Pictland ablaze.
Last game I ran, PCs came up with such an idea after the Picts ravaged an outpost they wanted to defend (while they weren't there). As it stands, PCs thought setting the woods on fire so Picts wouldn't be able to use them for their hit-and-run tactics. Also, it would disminish Pictish lands, which they thought could be a fine punishment (and they are fanatic Mitrans, so setting those heretics ablaze will not make them flinch).
Thank god they don't have napalm :lol:

Game followed with them spending most of their hard won money to enlist a small mercenary army as backup and to make sure they can both burn more land (with about fifty archers and their incendiary arrows) and be safe from Pictish retaliation since they will start the fires from outside the woods, that is, in open fields where their cavalry and pikemen could make a difference. Plus, they want to attack the forests only during day so they can return to campsites far from the woodland before it is dark (to avoid ambushes).
Players want to use hit-and-run, and will try to avoid engaging Picts for the most part.

How would Picts react? Sure they won't like this!
I thought it can be likely that Pictish tribes unite to make a serious joint strike at the westermarchers and all other neighbours for making the spirits angry :twisted:

Will this lead to war?

BTW, incidentally, PCs started with this tactic in Zingara, where one of them is a noble and didn't took Pictish assaults against friendly lands well... but then they moved to the Westermarch to set new fires (without their mercenaries, of course).
Will this have further political ramifications? Will they be considered as traitors wanting to make Aquilonia enter a war with the Picts?

You could send some rain storms to put a damper on the party's plans to burn down the pictish forest lands. Also you could have some of their mercenaries just not show up at their camp at night. Whether they just took the money and ran off, or were stealthily killed off by Picts, or got lost in the forest, or ran into some ferious and hungry forest creatures, or what, will not be known to the party.

Another thing to try is for the party to suddenly get caught in the fire they've set. Suddenly the fire hits some dead trees and dry brush and it races around the party and is out of control, trapping them within their own fire. Maybe some of the mercs get caught up in it. Does the party try to rescue their men or let them burn? It could be the way the party came into the forest is not the best way to go, as the fire has now raced around the party and is raging behind them. Could be they need to head further into the forest to survive, thereby potentially getting lost in the picts' backyard as night falls. They may then have to make camp and try to survive the night: would certainly make for a harrowing nght.

Or, maybe they get attacked by some picks while in the act of settng the fire and meanwhile the fire rages around them and gets out of control, thereby trapping them in with the picts. Do they kill off the picts, run blindly through the flames, or somehow work with these savages to get out of the blaze alive (this last option isnt real likely, but with good roleplaying I suppose it could be done. Would be interesting. What happens to their short live alliance with this band of Picts after they get out of the blaze? Would be interesting...).

But in the long run doing things like this periodically will tend to make the party realize that this "setting fire to the forest" idea may not be the best course of action to pursue, and not a good use of their time or money.

 

[argo]

Game followed with them spending most of their hard won money to enlist a small mercenary army as backup and to make sure they can both burn more land (with about fifty archers and their incendiary arrows) and be safe from Pictish retaliation since they will start the fires from outside the woods, that is, in open fields where their cavalry and pikemen could make a difference. Plus, they want to attack the forests only during day so they can return to campsites far from the woodland before it is dark (to avoid ambushes).
Players want to use hit-and-run, and will try to avoid engaging Picts for the most part.

This plan is unlikely to have the results they desire. First off, starting a wildfire requires more than just launching a bunch of flame arrows. Unless the weather conditions are just right it is likely that they will only burn a couple of acres around where they start the blaze before the fire dies. They can get around this with enough persistence or maybe with some knowledge checks to choose a good time and place to start the fire. Secondly, fires are unpredictable things. The westermark is heavily forested as well so unless their plan is to start the fire on the other side of the river they may risk blowback. Again, good knowledge checks could help avoid this.

But lets say they do manage to set a good sized blaze without toasting themselves. At best they can hope to burn a few thousand square acres before the fire dies out on its own. Maybe the territory of a single (small) clan but never the entire wilderness. And there is another problem, forests are very tough things. Unless they follow their burning with some slashing, that is unless they send in a bunch of loggers to cut down the burnt trees (and boy, won't those guys be vulneurable to Pictish counter attack) the wilderness will be well on the way to recovery within a year and back to full health within about two or three. I think that your players are seriously underestimating the raw vitality of the jungle.

How would Picts react? Sure they won't like this!
I thought it can be likely that Pictish tribes unite to make a serious joint strike at the westermarchers and all other neighbours for making the spirits angry :twisted:

Will this lead to war?

Oh my yes, I imagine if there is one thing that could get the Picts behind a joint retaliation it would be the white-skins trying to burn down their jungle. Maybe the PC's even manage to catch a sacred grove in one of their little wenie-roasts or something. That'll get 'em pissed. :twisted:

BTW, incidentally, PCs started with this tactic in Zingara, where one of them is a noble and didn't took Pictish assaults against friendly lands well... but then they moved to the Westermarch to set new fires (without their mercenaries, of course).
Will this have further political ramifications? Will they be considered as traitors wanting to make Aquilonia enter a war with the Picts?

You know, I'm not even sure why you're comming to us for advice. Comments like this make me think that you have the situation well in hand. :wink:

Happy hunting.

 

[Belkregos]

Wild fires are, well… wild,
They go out of hand very easily,
Even today, with trained fire marshals running preventive fires with helicopters and trained fire fighters, fires go out of hand,
I’m in southern California, so the fires of a couple of years ago come to mind
Anyway the point being they could very well burn down some frontier settlements, fires can jump the river, even lakes,
And the settlers also depend on the forest for survival and trade,
I would think they would not only be running from the picts but the frontiers men as well

 

[toothill man]

change the wind via dark magic and its the westmark that is purged with the picts laughing their heads off :twisted: :lol:

 

[urdinaran]

The Picts realize that they can't take on the mercenary army head-on, so they start attacking settlements in order to lure them away. The powers-that-be order that PCs and their army to deal with the Picts, as its their fault for the recent attacks.

Maybe one of their fires gets out of control and threatens a settlement or two, thus causing the local lord to order them to cease their activities.

 

[oddjack]

The Picts realize that they can't take on the mercenary army head-on, so they start attacking settlements in order to lure them away. The powers-that-be order that PCs and their army to deal with the Picts, as its their fault for the recent attacks.

Maybe one of their fires gets out of control and threatens a settlement or two, thus causing the local lord to order them to cease their activities.

That sounds like the strategy Picts may rely on. Start hitting settlements, in large numbers and more frequency. It will put pressure on the PC's to decide if they can waste time trying to light trees, or dfending the innocent. Plus, the increased attacks will mean more people looking for mercs to protect them, prices go up. A number of merchants or other wealthy types may buy up your mercs. And if the money if about the same...what's better, wandering around pict lands, getting picked off, or sitting in a village with drink, women, and warm beds? Plus set in defendable positions to hold. The PC's may find it near impossible to buy up mercs from the renewed demand. And what they get may be just basic level types, and commoners looking for coins. Those types won't be much help.

 

[Aelric]

I ,must say I am against this type of action becasue of America history it was done and was a really bad thing to do.

You give too much money to your players.

People need to eat too. The order of the day was generally to burn down the woods so crops could be planted. This was a common way of clearing the forest, nothing new about that. The forest is huge, it is huge! Take a long time to burn enough to really affect the Picts. No doubt forest fires are not terribly uncommon from lightning strikes. Besides, the forest also is the home of many animals the settlers need to survive on. Burning the forest won't help them any in the long run.

Making treaties, trading, treating the Picts as humans (or at least pretending to), is the only real way of dealing with them. Later on when you got them cornered and outnumbered and converted to your religion, you can force them onto reservations, and such. Particularly if they have much gold just lying around that you need. Diseases like small pox is another great way of dealing with Picts, just leave a pile of nice blankets that had recently been wrapped around people that have died from a few diseases. Kill three birds with one stone, get rid of the blankets, pretend charity by giving away free blankets, and then get rid of the Picts.

Boy, them Picts are in a heap of trouble!

 

[Voltumna]

I think the picts would be very very pissed. A good retaliation as someone suggested, would be thta the picts have a weather withching shaman that turns their fire against them, worst of all, some kind of fire that acts on its own volition. Picts are not just firece warriors, they have fearsome sorcerers.

The GM could also rule that the fire doesn't have the rihgt conditions to spread, be them natural, or again sorcerous. Worst thing for the players I think, would be having the fire turned on them if they are reckless about it. Some sort of divine justice, without having sorcery involved if they were dumb enough.

 

[René]

I'm no fire expert, but consider this:

if woods would burn so easily & totally, there won't have been many woods on earth a few hundred years after the the discovery of fire by man (not to speak of lightning).

My take:
- normal woods are hard to set afire (they're full of water)
- the fire ends after a short time
- the woods recovers after some years

Another approach: is there an example in human history that this method was succesful?

 

[Maximo]

Thanks for the input!

Now I'm figuring out how to mix these suggestions to make this fire thing all the more "funny" (for the Picts :twisted: :twisted: )

 

[oddjack]

I ,must say I am against this type of action becasue of America history it was done and was a really bad thing to do.

You give too much money to your players.

People need to eat too. The order of the day was generally to burn down the woods so crops could be planted. This was a common way of clearing the forest, nothing new about that. The forest is huge, it is huge! Take a long time to burn enough to really affect the Picts. No doubt forest fires are not terribly uncommon from lightning strikes. Besides, the forest also is the home of many animals the settlers need to survive on. Burning the forest won't help them any in the long run.

Making treaties, trading, treating the Picts as humans (or at least pretending to), is the only real way of dealing with them. Later on when you got them cornered and outnumbered and converted to your religion, you can force them onto reservations, and such. Particularly if they have much gold just lying around that you need. Diseases like small pox is another great way of dealing with Picts, just leave a pile of nice blankets that had recently been wrapped around people that have died from a few diseases. Kill three birds with one stone, get rid of the blankets, pretend charity by giving away free blankets, and then get rid of the Picts.

Boy, them Picts are in a heap of trouble!

I think a more realistic ens would be found in the interactions between Rome and the German tribes, as Rome moved north and crossed the Rhine. Except the peoples bordering the Pict are not united enough. If they fell under a single king, things may change.

 

[geordiekimbo]

I just found this interesting article about forest fires which I'll present here.

A forest fire at its ferocious worst can outrun any man, reach temperatures as high as 800 degrees C and feed voraciously on fuel, oxygen and heat.

A forest fire needs three things to get going:heat, wind and an unstable atmosphere. At their fastest and most dangerous, they can travel up to 50 kilometres an hour, Feller says, and be as hot as 800 degrees C at their cores.

Today getting a wildfire started depends either on nature delivering a bolt of lightning or a human being being careless with a match, a cigarette butt or a campfire.

But once they've started, wildfires feed hungrily on fuel, oxygen and heat.

When a fire starts, it generates a tremendous amount of energy which drives hot air up and away. But when that hot air rises, cooler air rushes in from every direction to replace it. Once that happens, you get stronger and stronger winds blowing towards the centre of [the fire]. And when a fire gets good convection, it increases in momentum and energy.

That's because as more and more oxygen comes in to feed the fire, the flames from it are warming up other trees close by.

And when things get to a certain temperature, they catch fire. As the fire heats up the surrounding fuel, that fuel catches fire. In other words, once a tree has reached a certain temperature -- usually between 200 and 400 degrees Celsius -- it literally bursts into flame.

And the more trees that catch fire this way, the hotter things get, which leads to more trees combusting. Added to that, are the presence of flammable chemicals -- hydrocarbons -- in trees that can be carried by the wind.

These hydrocarbons literally catch fire, and then are blown to other parts of the forest floor, causing more fuel to ignite. A particularly strong wind also can cause a phenomenon called "spotting," which refers to sparks blown from a fire onto a piece of fairly distant ground. If there is dry fuel on this ground -- pine needles and blades of grass can burn in an instant -- it will ignite and a new pocket of fire will erupt.

But despite the terror they cause in people, fires are not only natural in the ecology of the forest, they're essential for the survival of many of its species.

In modern day whenever there's a fire close to houses and cities, there's a lot of hype and media coverage.

However even when hundreds of thousands of hectares caught fire, within a few years, those hectares will be covered either with shrubs -- including many varieties of berry plants -- or young, but nevertheless dense, forests. That's because fires regenerate the forest by opening up parts of it to sunlight.

Fire also takes the nutrients bound up in debris on the forest floor and flushes them out into the soil. That way, fires enhance productivity.

Different types of herbs, grasses and shrubs grow in a fire's wake, which in turn form an important part of many animals' diets, including bears and deer. And unlike domestic animals, which are put in great danger by fire, there are few casualties within the wildlife population.

Some outrun it; some jump into a creek or river; some go underground; and birds, of course, fly away.

It's only after the fire has been put out that trouble begins. After a fire it's a bit of a free-for-all in the animal world as territories are established and re-established.


So we can weigh up the factors in such a situtation.

1, Setting fire to jungle is more difficult that a normal temperate forest, but not impossible. It'll need at least one or two trees to burn properly before it starts, and fire arrows won't produce this effect, as they would often burn out on the tree and scorch it.

2, The Picts. Well they've seen fire before, and understand that forest fire occur and are a natural occurance in the cycle of things. They've raided an area. They may realise that this may be in retaliation, they may not. They can simply move on to a different area. They may retaliate back, burning settlements elsewhere. They may lure away or pick of straggling mercenaries, taking their time to do so. i doubt that a single raiding party would have sufficient backing to demand that an alliance be gathered purely because a group of warriors are setting fire to the jungle.

3, The weather, and unforseen circumstances. Setting off a fire can cause big problems to neighbouring regions. Someones crops could get burned as a result, the fire could quickly spread to neighbouring fields when the wind changes and set fire to a nobles forests and thus disrupt his livelihood, and thus the players my gain a deserved enemy, who will seek his own justice.

4, The gods. mitra might not like the idea of upsetting so many, in order to punish the few. The pictish gods and spirits may make their displeasure known to the group.

5, random elements, the players set a huge fire...its going well and suddenly a storm whips up and a driving monsoon grows, and floods sweep away many of the group and their retinue, the stragglers are left isolated and often at the mercy of patrols of pictish warriors, eager to prove themselves. The players may make it back in one piece.

 

[urdinaran]

Nice work Geordie!!!

Also consider that a large mercenary force, sitting around on guard duty, will not only get restless but may also begin contracting all forms of disease due to poor hygiene. Add to that the fact that the ground they are camped on has recently been cleared of any ground cover, rains will cause erosion and lots and lots of mud; mud/standing water attracts mosquitos, which in turn carry Malaria, Yellow Fever, etc.

And your post is correct, forests/jungles regrow faster than we think. Unless the PCs are willing to hire/contract a sufficient amount of settlers to work the now cleared land, their plan won't work.

 

[René]

Thanks for the article, geordiekimbo! Does anyone know why the fires run out after some time? The article suggests an ever spreading inferno...

[setting forest fires on the list "cool scenarios"]

 

[Mark Dunder]

I ,must say I am against this type of action becasue of America history it was done and was a really bad thing to do.

Yes, Aelric. That is exactly what happened to some of the Natives of North America (members of the Iroquois Nation, IIRC) right before the Civil War.

I was being extremely sarcastic. I'm glad someone picked up on that.

The Picts are the fictional boogiemen of Hyboria and we can do as we will with them without suffering any consequences. Or can we? Is the way we think important? Why do most of us play heroes? Is it heroic or good to destroy a race, even if they are fictitious? Would doing so Corrupt the soul of the character?

Have fun playing.

 

[geordiekimbo]

Thanks for the article, geordiekimbo! Does anyone know why the fires run out after some time? The article suggests an ever spreading inferno...

Thanks for the praise

I've never heard of an everspreading inferno. Well I'd assume that it would rain eventually. Or the wind would change, and the path of the fire would halt, hopefully until it went out. Alternatively the fire could get so large it no longer behaves as suggested and peeters out.

Besides its more common for it to rain often in jungles.. In a pictish jungle I doubt forest fires would last more than a day or two at most.

 

[GrimJesta]

4, The gods. mitra might not like the idea of upsetting so many, in order to punish the few. The pictish gods and spirits may make their displeasure known to the group.

I know I don't post much, despite lurking here ever since Conan came out, but I wanted to add a point regarding this quoted piece above. There's no proof of the gods of the Hyborean Age, so Mitra wouldn't do anything at all to the characters. There probably isn't even a Mitra as far as deities go, but his religion might not like the burning. So while the PCs wouldn't have anything to fear from Mitra, they might face some serious problems from a ticked off local clergy in Westermark. Others might see the characters as Mitra's fury against the heathen Picts.



-=Grim=-