Studio Cat
Cosmic Mongoose
And really quickly you learn who is worth listening to and who is best ignored
How to make Traveller more popular with TTRPG players
- Thread starter MarcusIII
- Start date
Sure, but no one has actually established that Traveller isn't one of those "currently popular games.". Mongoose is successfully selling lots of merchandise. Every time someone posts some list of "games played on some site" Traveller is one of the top space opera games. It's rules are a adamantium seller on DTRPG, in addition to the hardbacks and pdfs that Mongoose sells directly.
It's obviously not on D&D's level. Nothing is.
With the games like Star Wars and Star Trek, it's hard to winnow out the mass of IP fans from the people who actually play the games. Those games don't seem to have anywhere near the product support that Mongoose Traveller does. They "seem" to have more players in online spaces, but there's no solid figures for players or sales I'm aware of.
Starfinder is usually considered to be more popular than Traveller, though I don't think anyone has any information on sales. That's based, again, on games on online platforms.
One can always do better. But the OP's premise that the game is doing badly and needs to change things up significantly is, frankly, an unproven assertion. Maybe it is, in fact, an unpopular game. But I don't see any evidence of that. It doesn't show up on lists of janky games no one plays. It has all these new players around to tell the old guard what awful people they are.
I've never had a problem finding players. Ever. In 45+ years. Whether it's a game store, gaming convention, gaming club, online, the fact that I'm willing to run the game has been all that's necessary to get people to play it. There's no shortage of product support. There's a fair number of youtubers that talk about it regularly, though Seth's the only one you might call "Mainstream". There's a range of live plays available for it, especially by non-fantasy game standards. There are third party companies that make a living off licensed games based off the Traveller rules.
It's a game that's been around for 50 years. It's not the new hotness by a cool internet savvy indie designer to get a lot of chatter and people going "oooh, we should boost that game, it needs the exposure!". On the other hand, Traveller's going to come up (antiquated memes and all) if you investigate space sci fi games. Especially if you aren't looking specifically for horror games.
There's stuff that can be done better, both in terms of products and marketing. But I don't know where this idea that's its doing badly comes from.
Bifford
Banded Mongoose
Analysis Paralysis & Exposure.
When I type "Traveller ttRPG" into a search engine the first thing to pop up is the Wikipedia entry.
Go to this and the first paragraph talks about who first wrote the game but does not link to the *current publisher* of Mongoose. The first time Mongoose is mentioned is way down the page in the "Editions" list - and even then your site is not hyperlinked until the 2008 listing. You are listed and linked in the box-out on the right hand side, but before Far Future Enterprises (I thought you owned all rights now?).
All in all, on wikipedia you are a shadow-mention. Nothing says "GO HERE TO FIND IT!" - I would get someone to do a small edit to that very first paragraph to say "The current licenced publisher is Mongoose Publishing" (with a hyperlink).
The 2nd link is your site - great!
The 3rd link is the TravellerRPG.com wiki site - also great! Except their "External Sites" quick-link section on the left does not mention Mongoose, only Far Future Enterprises and there is very little mention/link back to Mongoose throughout the site.
I have to scroll down the list to get to a second Mongoose website link (the free downloads page), so I would look at bolstering your SEO hits on this and any other Traveller page on your site so that you have more results in the search engine first page.
Your DTRPG site does not even feature in this list but I've no idea why not. Roll20 does.
In search engine videos, the first one is a one-shot by Oxventure, so that's great, but it is 1hr46 long. Typical for a one-shot, but a tough delve for anyone wanting to "see if it would fit them." The next videos are much better for that. Seth Skorkowsky's Intro and Character Creation videos, at 13mins and 40mins a piece. Bite-sized info dumps that help me decide if Traveller is "right for me." Great! The next ones are reviews of modules, both under 30mins, so also good.
I would be asking many video reviewers to do a review of your core book and the starter set. Ask them to keep it fairly short and sweet (15-25mins), with a small section on "where to go next" ie a decent but not lengthly scenario to buy which helps the Director and Players to learn/get used to the system as they play.
Your website is great. While the initial page drop for Traveller shows 145 products (first one being the core book), there is a nice "Start Here" link that whittles this analysis paralysis dilemma down to just 8 products. Whew! Good job!
The other sub-set links such as Core/Source/Adventures/Campaigns are awesome, too. I can't fault your website for this.
I appreciate the Explorer's Edition PDF at 75p. Much like the Legend PDF for £1 this is a beautiful way to entice people in. But you need to make it a bigger deal. That is to say, make it more prominant - show it off more. Put it first in that list - Is there in your shop to have a featured item, that appears first and has blurb with it? You might even want to offer this item free as a special deal.
DTRPG on the other hand.....type in Traveller, and all you get is Far Future Enterprises books. 3838 books. The first page (sort: Relevence) is all FFE. Currently your "Cluster Truck" book is on the front page under "Bestselling Titles" but otherwise the site is swamped by FFE.
My big problem with Traveller, though, is the titled Analysis paralysis. There is just so much "stuff" out there, from numerous editions, that it is impossible to know where to start (after the core book). Just in the current release there are dozens of setting books, 18 campaigns (19 with the 5th Frontier War) and no road-map to be seen. A handy free quick cheatsheet of what's what would be great. "The core introduces this this and this. If you want to explore a. get f. If you want to explore b. get k. If your group like playing as t. then get u. etc."
This cheat sheet could also explain the style differences in versions. Whereas D&D has "5e" or "AD&D2" on their covers yours are just delineated by logo and style. Adding a brief thing into that doc saying "Current Traveller all have this logo/style. Classic Traveller books all look list this... and note the differences in editions - what's compatible and how much reworking is needed to make something work with current Traveller." Have a flow-chart or map-chart in there with various location/style routes flowed out.
Someone else has mentioned a Starter-Boxset. These are perfect and a must-have. A nice box with a set of die, a cut-down core rule book, a basic setting guide (and maybe an advanced setting guide), at least one or two small but perfectly formed scenarios for a group of 2-6 players, and an introductory solo-game designed for the Director to play through. Look to Pendragon 6e or Doctor Who for the perfect example of these. Make sure that box set includes a "what next" sheet (as detailed above).
TLDR: More and better exposure is needed. A very easy "in" is needed. A cheat-sheet of what is available is needed.
Oh, and I love forums, but (as I've said before) this place gets overrun by Traveller in non-Traveller areas. It has a big enough section as it is, why can't people keep topics where they are meant to be? Moderation needs to start discouraging conversation-creep because it gets too much at times.
I'm sure people will disagree with everything I've said above, but it's how I see it. I own a few PDFs, I've played in a game years ago, but there's so much stuff out there I've never wanted to delve in because I fear I would drown. Roadmap me. Starter boxset me. Make me buy in with an easy (and not scary!) physical purchase.
When I type "Traveller ttRPG" into a search engine the first thing to pop up is the Wikipedia entry.
Go to this and the first paragraph talks about who first wrote the game but does not link to the *current publisher* of Mongoose. The first time Mongoose is mentioned is way down the page in the "Editions" list - and even then your site is not hyperlinked until the 2008 listing. You are listed and linked in the box-out on the right hand side, but before Far Future Enterprises (I thought you owned all rights now?).
All in all, on wikipedia you are a shadow-mention. Nothing says "GO HERE TO FIND IT!" - I would get someone to do a small edit to that very first paragraph to say "The current licenced publisher is Mongoose Publishing" (with a hyperlink).
The 2nd link is your site - great!
The 3rd link is the TravellerRPG.com wiki site - also great! Except their "External Sites" quick-link section on the left does not mention Mongoose, only Far Future Enterprises and there is very little mention/link back to Mongoose throughout the site.
I have to scroll down the list to get to a second Mongoose website link (the free downloads page), so I would look at bolstering your SEO hits on this and any other Traveller page on your site so that you have more results in the search engine first page.
Your DTRPG site does not even feature in this list but I've no idea why not. Roll20 does.
In search engine videos, the first one is a one-shot by Oxventure, so that's great, but it is 1hr46 long. Typical for a one-shot, but a tough delve for anyone wanting to "see if it would fit them." The next videos are much better for that. Seth Skorkowsky's Intro and Character Creation videos, at 13mins and 40mins a piece. Bite-sized info dumps that help me decide if Traveller is "right for me." Great! The next ones are reviews of modules, both under 30mins, so also good.
I would be asking many video reviewers to do a review of your core book and the starter set. Ask them to keep it fairly short and sweet (15-25mins), with a small section on "where to go next" ie a decent but not lengthly scenario to buy which helps the Director and Players to learn/get used to the system as they play.
Your website is great. While the initial page drop for Traveller shows 145 products (first one being the core book), there is a nice "Start Here" link that whittles this analysis paralysis dilemma down to just 8 products. Whew! Good job!
The other sub-set links such as Core/Source/Adventures/Campaigns are awesome, too. I can't fault your website for this.
I appreciate the Explorer's Edition PDF at 75p. Much like the Legend PDF for £1 this is a beautiful way to entice people in. But you need to make it a bigger deal. That is to say, make it more prominant - show it off more. Put it first in that list - Is there in your shop to have a featured item, that appears first and has blurb with it? You might even want to offer this item free as a special deal.
DTRPG on the other hand.....type in Traveller, and all you get is Far Future Enterprises books. 3838 books. The first page (sort: Relevence) is all FFE. Currently your "Cluster Truck" book is on the front page under "Bestselling Titles" but otherwise the site is swamped by FFE.
My big problem with Traveller, though, is the titled Analysis paralysis. There is just so much "stuff" out there, from numerous editions, that it is impossible to know where to start (after the core book). Just in the current release there are dozens of setting books, 18 campaigns (19 with the 5th Frontier War) and no road-map to be seen. A handy free quick cheatsheet of what's what would be great. "The core introduces this this and this. If you want to explore a. get f. If you want to explore b. get k. If your group like playing as t. then get u. etc."
This cheat sheet could also explain the style differences in versions. Whereas D&D has "5e" or "AD&D2" on their covers yours are just delineated by logo and style. Adding a brief thing into that doc saying "Current Traveller all have this logo/style. Classic Traveller books all look list this... and note the differences in editions - what's compatible and how much reworking is needed to make something work with current Traveller." Have a flow-chart or map-chart in there with various location/style routes flowed out.
Someone else has mentioned a Starter-Boxset. These are perfect and a must-have. A nice box with a set of die, a cut-down core rule book, a basic setting guide (and maybe an advanced setting guide), at least one or two small but perfectly formed scenarios for a group of 2-6 players, and an introductory solo-game designed for the Director to play through. Look to Pendragon 6e or Doctor Who for the perfect example of these. Make sure that box set includes a "what next" sheet (as detailed above).
TLDR: More and better exposure is needed. A very easy "in" is needed. A cheat-sheet of what is available is needed.
Oh, and I love forums, but (as I've said before) this place gets overrun by Traveller in non-Traveller areas. It has a big enough section as it is, why can't people keep topics where they are meant to be? Moderation needs to start discouraging conversation-creep because it gets too much at times.
I'm sure people will disagree with everything I've said above, but it's how I see it. I own a few PDFs, I've played in a game years ago, but there's so much stuff out there I've never wanted to delve in because I fear I would drown. Roadmap me. Starter boxset me. Make me buy in with an easy (and not scary!) physical purchase.
CaptKraken
Banded Mongoose
Great analysis. The analysis paralysis is key to player growth. The weight of the product's history is as much a barrier as an asset.
A new player can have a hard time figuring out where to start. This is compounded by the fact that when you look up questions about rules, setting, adventures, game resources, etc., the answers are often spread across products and publishers, and they are often long out of date.
Most new players are going to be looking for MGT2e not one of the many other product lines.
MarcusIII
Cosmic Mongoose
This. Having the current version as the "face" of the game when people search for it would be great. I played from the first version but I can't imagine trying to find out about Trav as a new prospective player today with all the different versions that get displayed when one searches.
CaptKraken
Banded Mongoose
Where did I say the old guard were awful people? I said one person was a bad referee, and that was not a unique experience.Sure, but no one has actually established that Traveller isn't one of those "currently popular games.". Mongoose is successfully selling lots of merchandise. Every time someone posts some list of "games played on some site" Traveller is one of the top space opera games. It's rules are a adamantium seller on DTRPG, in addition to the hardbacks and pdfs that Mongoose sells directly.
It's obviously not on D&D's level. Nothing is.
With the games like Star Wars and Star Trek, it's hard to winnow out the mass of IP fans from the people who actually play the games. Those games don't seem to have anywhere near the product support that Mongoose Traveller does. They "seem" to have more players in online spaces, but there's no solid figures for players or sales I'm aware of.
Starfinder is usually considered to be more popular than Traveller, though I don't think anyone has any information on sales. That's based, again, on games on online platforms.
One can always do better. But the OP's premise that the game is doing badly and needs to change things up significantly is, frankly, an unproven assertion. Maybe it is, in fact, an unpopular game. But I don't see any evidence of that. It doesn't show up on lists of janky games no one plays. It has all these new players around to tell the old guard what awful people they are.
I've never had a problem finding players. Ever. In 45+ years. Whether it's a game store, gaming convention, gaming club, online, the fact that I'm willing to run the game has been all that's necessary to get people to play it. There's no shortage of product support. There's a fair number of youtubers that talk about it regularly, though Seth's the only one you might call "Mainstream". There's a range of live plays available for it, especially by non-fantasy game standards. There are third party companies that make a living off licensed games based off the Traveller rules.
It's a game that's been around for 50 years. It's not the new hotness by a cool internet savvy indie designer to get a lot of chatter and people going "oooh, we should boost that game, it needs the exposure!". On the other hand, Traveller's going to come up (antiquated memes and all) if you investigate space sci fi games. Especially if you aren't looking specifically for horror games.
There's stuff that can be done better, both in terms of products and marketing. But I don't know where this idea that's its doing badly comes from.
The original question in this thread concerns how to make the game more popular. Doing what you have been doing rarely makes you more popular than you already are. Traveller is apparently growing, as noted by a staff member in an earlier post. More than likely because they have made some changes. That is a credit to the product, and that is why I, for one, would like to see it continue to grow.
I did not, nor is it worth comparing the game to D&D. It is, however, worth comparing it to other sci-fi games, or perhaps more importantly, to product lines that have been around almost as long as Traveller. Games like Call of Cthulhu, Pendragon, Cyberpunk, or even, to a degree, the OSR movement. All of those game systems have the same core rule design elements as they did many years ago. Their online presence is better due to their design, the availability of streaming examples of play, marketing, and growth in their fan base.
The data from various sources, like VTT providers, Convention stats, and Start Playing Games, seems to suggest that Traveller is a top-50 TTRPG game. Probably closer to a top 40 game. What it can easily claim is that it's been on that list longer than just about anybody else. The other survivors have continued to modernize their product.
I am not suggesting that you change the rules or what you do at your table. I am suggesting improvements to the layout and design, marketing, and public demonstrations of the product. I'm also saying that if you want to build a community of players, you need to make those players feel welcome. New players will bring new ideas, and that is a good thing.
True, I was responding to comments in this thread in general, not just your specific comments. I quoted you because that was the most recent expression of a core problem I have with this thread, which that it seems to start from the assumption that the game is in a bad place and needs a course correction.
I do think that comments like 'what needs to be done might be things the current players don't like' is both fundamentally not true and implies there's a problem with the current players. Which I do not believe is true. That may not be how you meant it.
There are extremely few players, if any, who would object to improvements to design, organization, marketing, or demos. On the other hand, this thread is chock full of posts to the effect that the solution is to turn Traveller into a different game entirely. That is certainly something that a large number of existing players would have issues with.
The problem is that there are four or five people - at least two of whom I know do not actually ever play with others - whose hobby it is to post on this forum and who are bored or frustrated with Traveller in its current form, or who in some cases think that
Luckily, new players rarely read these forums because, well, who reads forums any more except us whiny old guys? Grognards - "grumblers" - is a cliche for a reason! Otherwise, Mongoose would have to pay just enough attention to ban a few to defend their brand.
actionman
Emperor Mongoose
Here's an idea, if there aren't many or any good media Traveller ambassadors, perhaps Mongoose should consider hiring some, if it's in the budget. Find 5 or 6 actors or film students who are photogenic, and who have experience being on camera, and so on. Hire them per video to play through adventures and campaigns, and showcase different aspects of Traveller. They can showcase different books or adventures, or custom adventures written for them, so the published adventures remain mysterious.
CaptKraken
Banded Mongoose
I would like to nominate Mystery Quest, as it is already an established, actual-play show that works with product lines such as Call of Cthulhu. They are also based in the UK, which may help in coordinating the effort. The show might be a bit too narrative for some, but they are getting a consistent 20k on Cthulhu: Dark Ages and exceeded 100k with the Alien RPG.
They have a Discord, which you can easily join. There is even a thread to vote on upcoming game systems. Traveller is currently not on that list; however, Paranoia, Star Trek Adventures, Stars Without Number, Cloud Empress, Space Kings, The Electric State, Salvage Union, Warhammer 40k, and hell, even the Red Dwarf RPG are. If you join the Discord, you can nominate and vote for a game. (I just learned about this process, so I may nominate Traveller myself, but if you beat me to it, great!
EDIT: Adding that if I understand this correctly, an effort to vote Traveller in might not even cost Mongoose any $$$.
Linking to the Alien actual play because this forum doesn't seem to like the other links.
They have a Discord, which you can easily join. There is even a thread to vote on upcoming game systems. Traveller is currently not on that list; however, Paranoia, Star Trek Adventures, Stars Without Number, Cloud Empress, Space Kings, The Electric State, Salvage Union, Warhammer 40k, and hell, even the Red Dwarf RPG are. If you join the Discord, you can nominate and vote for a game. (I just learned about this process, so I may nominate Traveller myself, but if you beat me to it, great!
EDIT: Adding that if I understand this correctly, an effort to vote Traveller in might not even cost Mongoose any $$$.
Linking to the Alien actual play because this forum doesn't seem to like the other links.
actionman
Emperor Mongoose
@CaptKraken
So I'm giving Glass Cannon another try. It took them 20 - 30 minutes to get around to talking about Traveller, and I think that's what put me off before. About 50 minutes in I was enjoying the video.
EDIT: Haaaaaa, Seth just rolled a life event that's going to send his character to prison!
But, if Mongoose were to create its own ambassador team, I'd recommend something more like Critical Role, like have a small game-room-like recording set and have the team play around a table, rather than over teleconference. But, that's just me wondering, and everything would of course be constrained by costs and practicalities and so on.
So I'm giving Glass Cannon another try. It took them 20 - 30 minutes to get around to talking about Traveller, and I think that's what put me off before. About 50 minutes in I was enjoying the video.
EDIT: Haaaaaa, Seth just rolled a life event that's going to send his character to prison!
But, if Mongoose were to create its own ambassador team, I'd recommend something more like Critical Role, like have a small game-room-like recording set and have the team play around a table, rather than over teleconference. But, that's just me wondering, and everything would of course be constrained by costs and practicalities and so on.
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I found one of the party absolutely unbearable, which is amazing given how much I wanted to watch Seth in action. The member in question was just too Theatre Kid for words, for me. I get that others may like that, though. At least with only one Theatre Kid it was more bearable than the one by The Gamblers.
CaptKraken
Banded Mongoose
That is a fair point and a solid argument for more examples, mainly from channels that can hit a large audience if growth is the goal. I do think, at least when it comes to live plays, theater kids are going to get more views than traditional game play.
Right now, Seth and Glass Cannon are doing the heavy lifting on YouTube because that's what people are watching. Which is not to say other folks aren't giving it a try, but in terms of exposure numbers, this is where the people are.
Live players aren't the only answer. Reviewers with good numbers are out there as well, like Quinn's Quest, which regularly hits 100k+ for reviews and 10k+ for live plays. Dave Thaumavore's Traveller MGT2e review has 47k views, but it's 6 years old.
The problem with review channels is that the game will be compared to what is currently coming to market, and that is one of the areas I alluded to when I said "people are going to hear things they don't want to hear."
Now, Cluster Trucker and Borderlands, I think those are products that can hold up against the current market. Cluster Trucker is especially good for live play. If I were Mongoose, I'd be promoting the heck out of the truckers in space.
There's also that DM Chris or whatever his name is who ran PoD and currently runs Deepnight, but he gets a few dozen views per episode because the sound levels are insanely imbalanced between GM and players, and he insists on vaping every thirty seconds into an open mic, so you get constant crackle and pop that is amazingly unbearable to a good portion of his audience.
I once said to him that I would absolutely love to listen to and promote his stuff if he would just use a cough button for vaping: he responded that his cough button was for when he coughed (so untrue: the vaping means he coughs a lot!) and that if I didn't like him vaping then I should listen to another podcast. And so, sadly, I do... it's such a missed opportunity because with better production values he has a huge back catalogue of content.
I once said to him that I would absolutely love to listen to and promote his stuff if he would just use a cough button for vaping: he responded that his cough button was for when he coughed (so untrue: the vaping means he coughs a lot!) and that if I didn't like him vaping then I should listen to another podcast. And so, sadly, I do... it's such a missed opportunity because with better production values he has a huge back catalogue of content.
Arkathan
Emperor Mongoose
Wikipedia can be edited by users.
Someone should be able to edit the first or second paragraph to show that Mongoose (link) now fully owns the IP.
actionman
Emperor Mongoose
Issues like this are why I think a dedicated Traveller ambassador channel should be Mongoose owned and controlled.
