How to make Traveller more popular with TTRPG players
- Thread starter MarcusIII
- Start date
In any case, I do think Mongoose is doing a good job with core Traveller. It's a thankless job to keep a nearly 50 year old game fresh, and I have always been impressed with how they stayed centred on Classic Traveller, while incorporating the best elements of later editions. A better thought out version of the MegaTraveller task system, a more evolved and streamlined version of Classic, MegaTraveller and TNE character creation.
But that doesn't bring in the new players much. I'm possibly the WORST person demographically - I'm in a small minority whose first RPG was 1977 Traveller, when I was 14 in 1980, with no one to show me the ropes. I devoured those three black books. It's in blood so much that d20 or percentage systems have always seemed odd. 3D6 vs target ones like HERO or GURPS feel far more natural.
However, even with all that, I can see it's not about the mechanics much. Yeah, d20 is King, but dice pool is popular, Savage world style is popular, Cthulhu is popular despite being both percentage and non-Fantasy. I seriously doubt many that try the Traveller skill use or combat system are confused by them.
Probably the real sticking point, or perceived sticking point, is what has been mentioned earlier in the thread - up front character generation, instead of the more common incremental progress as a game reward for success. Traveller is not the only game that has this - the Superhero ones mostly do it that way. GURPS characters are commonly older ones, although that IS a matter of player choice, and only marginally effects character design. Nonetheless, ongoing growth is fairly slow, comparable to Mongoose Traveller... but allowing you to have a 20 year old with superior stats and skills. And of course, those games aren't exactly topping the charts either. All the popular games are ones where success in play is directly rewarded with experience, either as a value to increase level, a currency to spend, or by having the skills used successfully levelling up.
And it's also what players expect from non-tabletop RPGS. Almost all of them with progression are "play the game, succeed at stuff, get better at playing the game". Not "play the game, succeed at stuff, stay the same unless you take time out to train up". The only major counter example I can think of is EVE Online, which uses a real time skill training queue unconnected by what you do in the game. Not coincidentally, EVE is a very Traveller-like game. Although ELITE - which has no skill up system at all - is a closer match.
But that doesn't bring in the new players much. I'm possibly the WORST person demographically - I'm in a small minority whose first RPG was 1977 Traveller, when I was 14 in 1980, with no one to show me the ropes. I devoured those three black books. It's in blood so much that d20 or percentage systems have always seemed odd. 3D6 vs target ones like HERO or GURPS feel far more natural.
However, even with all that, I can see it's not about the mechanics much. Yeah, d20 is King, but dice pool is popular, Savage world style is popular, Cthulhu is popular despite being both percentage and non-Fantasy. I seriously doubt many that try the Traveller skill use or combat system are confused by them.
Probably the real sticking point, or perceived sticking point, is what has been mentioned earlier in the thread - up front character generation, instead of the more common incremental progress as a game reward for success. Traveller is not the only game that has this - the Superhero ones mostly do it that way. GURPS characters are commonly older ones, although that IS a matter of player choice, and only marginally effects character design. Nonetheless, ongoing growth is fairly slow, comparable to Mongoose Traveller... but allowing you to have a 20 year old with superior stats and skills. And of course, those games aren't exactly topping the charts either. All the popular games are ones where success in play is directly rewarded with experience, either as a value to increase level, a currency to spend, or by having the skills used successfully levelling up.
And it's also what players expect from non-tabletop RPGS. Almost all of them with progression are "play the game, succeed at stuff, get better at playing the game". Not "play the game, succeed at stuff, stay the same unless you take time out to train up". The only major counter example I can think of is EVE Online, which uses a real time skill training queue unconnected by what you do in the game. Not coincidentally, EVE is a very Traveller-like game. Although ELITE - which has no skill up system at all - is a closer match.
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Condottiere
Emperor Mongoose
The Terrans developed Sildenafil.
Micky
Emperor Mongoose
Studio Cat
Cosmic Mongoose
This is why the Solomani are always so cocksure in their, attitude......
actionman
Emperor Mongoose
Absolutely right.
Absolutely right. Excellent quibble.
Counter-quibble:
The Terrans developed Jump 3 and meson guns before the Ziru Sirka or any other group. These Terran advances, severe political and social strife within the Ziru Sirka, and the general ineptitude of Vilani strategy and leadership is what killed the First Imperium.
The Terran Confederation had about 27 worlds by the later period of the Interstellar Wars. For many of the Interstellar Wars, it was Terra and its colonies against only the resources the Vilani provincial governor decided to deploy. What Terra considered 'wars', Vilani provincial governors considered 'engagements' or 'punitive expeditions'.
There was a civil war in the Ziru Sirka between the first and second wars with Terra.
Vilani fleets operating near Terra were at the end of their logistical chains.
Terran diseases devastated numerous Vilani worlds between the Third and Fourth wars between Terra and the Ziru Sirka.
The Vargr only became a problem on the Vilani coreward frontier after the seventh Terran-Vilani war.
The Vegans revolted against the Vilani, giving the Terrans a powerful stronghold in the rimward province.
Only after nine wars with Terra did the Vilani emperor send a massive fleet to crush Terra once and for all. This fleet, the bulk of Vilani fleet power, was destroyed by new Terran meson gun armed battleships. After this loss the Vilani were on the defensive until the Ziru Sirka fell.
I completely agree. I consider the Solomani to have been similar to the British in India or Africa. Many Solomani populations would've been completely assimilated by much larger Vilani populations during the Long Night, or remained distinct Solomani populations in instances where there was a viable Solomani population to sustain itself if it did not assimilate. Only in regions closer to Terra, where Vilani worlds were depopulated by Terran plagues, would there be majority Solomani populations or mixed Solomani-Vilani populations. By the time the Long Night ended, a "Solomani" in the former Imperial core would be a Vilani with a fraction of Solomani heritage, and would be unrecognizable to the Solomani of the Solomani Sphere.
Condottiere
Emperor Mongoose
Could be the Normal Conquest.
Every Terran Navy Officer gets to set up a local fief, and the local Vilani aristocracy gets their genetics enhanced.
Every Terran Navy Officer gets to set up a local fief, and the local Vilani aristocracy gets their genetics enhanced.
actionman
Emperor Mongoose
Anyway, back to making Traveller more popular.
Address the setting issue.
Make Charted Space the default setting, and rework it to address the problems, inconsistencies, and contradictions in it. Make it consistent, plausible, and logical. Jettison the idea that the Imperium rules the space between the stars and that members worlds are independent as long as they obey nebulous Imperial law. The Imperium isn't a commonwealth or an association, it's an empire, and empires don't work like that. The rich and powerful want more riches and power (don't we all). Be explicit that the Imperial feudal lord in charge of a planet is responsible for maintaining order and keeping trade and taxes flowing, but other than that, planetary governments are allowed local autonomy. If people say well that's not Traveller, say Mongoose is the sole owner of Traveller now, and has the power to say what's Traveller and what's not. Even that doesn't matter since we all do whatever we want in our own TU's anyway.
Keep all the create your own setting tools, keep all of them for people who want to use them. Make them robust and available for people who want to use them to change or add to the Charted Space setting. They're not only for people who want to create a whole new setting. And also rework them. Adjust them to minimize results like TL1 people on hellworlds, and TL15 worlds with tiny populations, like 5 guys crouched around a TL15 keg. That or change the definition of TL to include the meaning of a world only having high TL installations or facilities, not only a world with TL 15 production facilities.
Figure out how jump drive works, and why it uses all that hydrogen. That was only written in to Traveller to create frontiers and limit the range of FTL travel, it never had a reason. And don't use that specious idea that the hydrogen is squirted out around the ship to protect it while it's in jump space either. Then it's not fuel at all. I don't mean a hard science explanation, and I mean something just plausible enough to answer the question, like the jump drive through the magic of handwavium converts all that hydrogen to energy almost instantly to create the burst of energy necessary to shift the ship into jumpspace or something. It doesn't have to be hard.
And for the love of Charted Space, figure out Vilani culture. Go with descriptions of the Vilani in MgT2e and the other editions of Traveller, then hire a cultural or four-field anthropologist to create a coherent culture out of all the snippets and comments about Vilani culture over all the editions of Traveller. If I can draw a conclusion from identifying all the comments in a book to quibble on this forum, then surely it's possible. IMO Mongoose should have an anthropologist advise for all of Traveller's races and nations (Chanestin, Sylean, etc. etc.). Give the Vilani their rightful place as the majority population in the 3rd Imperium. Make language and culture matter.
In the supplements about the regions of Charted Space, like the Solomani and so on, put in tailored customized character generation tables for those peoples or races, like the CT Alien modules. The CRB character generation will serve as a foundation with an Imperial focus, and the regional supplements should provide tailored character generation for the people in those regions. Make a real book for the Solomani, like a book about the Solomani Confederation, not just a book about the Solomani Rim. We're getting books for the Aslan, and we need them for the major empires in the Vargr Extents.
And I did a slight bit of research on reddit about why people don't like the 3rd Imperium as a setting. The primary issue was that these people would rather create their own settings. Fine, Traveller has the tools to let them do that.
The other complaint was that the 3rd Imperium was too stable, and that the highly independent nobles and so on would revolt and there would be civil wars, and so on.
The 3rd Imperium has had a ruinous civil war and plenty of related strife, and a devastating revolt in the form of the Solomani Rim War, but the main reason that the 3rd Imperium is as stable as it is, is because it does not depend on its vassal nobles for its military forces, and it never has. That's the big difference. Once the central authority directly controls a military that is powerful enough to utterly smash any one vassal or provincial governor, revolts tend to quiet right down. As I discussed in a post some time ago, there aren't revolts and civil wars because the Imperial nobles who control worlds are not those who control fleets, and the sector fleets are paid by and loyal to the Emperor alone, not the sector dukes. The military forces of a subsector duke or even a sector duke are completely overmatched by the forces directly controlled by the Emperor. People just see words like "nobles" or "feudal" and decide that there should be revolts and civil wars and so on like the middle ages, and don't think through anything else. I wonder if the people with this complaint would feel the same if the words were subsector governor and sector governor instead of "duke" which is just the evolution of the Latin dux, which means military commander.
Another complaint was that monarchy in a sci fi setting doesn't make sense. Well, tell that to Kim Jong Un. North Korea has been a monarchy since the first Kim in 1947, the Eternal President. Monarchy is one of the most natural forms of government, and some kind of feudalism (the central authority assigns a person to manage an asset and in return that person is allowed to profit from it to some extent) is a very effective system for a sci fi setting with long communication and travel times. Monarchy has been humanity's primary form of government for thousands of years. In a sci fi setting with long communication and travel times, monarchy is a stabilizing force. Instead of requiring all the provincial governors and powerful military commanders to travel for months to get to the capitol where they can do all the politicking they need to do to choose a new ruler, with a monarchy, especially an absolute monarchy, the process of choosing a new ruler is stabilized into simply accepting the child or official heir of the previous ruler. No one has to travel, all that has to happen is for the representatives of the provincial governors at court to send a message to their provincial governors saying, "The king is dead, succession is legitimate, long live the king."
The last complaint was that the 3rd Imperium was stale and boring. I can't fault them for this one. The role of nobles was vague and poorly explained (they didn't really seem to do much of anything, there weren't supposed to involve themselves in the worlds they were assigned to, etc.), the space between the stars doctrine made the Imperium so remote as to be nonexistent, the cultures of the Imperial were vague or completely undefined, and really, it was stale and boring. Despite the decades I've been playing Traveller, I felt the same way. I always had to reimagine it, IMTU it, and do what I had to do to make the the star of the Charted Space setting shine. The most enthusiastic I've felt about the 3rd Imperium is when I wrote the Dark Imperium thread.
https://forum.mongoosepublishing.com/threads/thoughts-on-the-dark-imperium.125481/
https://forum.mongoosepublishing.co...uture-of-traveller.123226/page-43#post-993236
Granted, the current Third Imperium book did a lot to alleviate this issue, but there still needs to much more done. And somebody called out Astroburgers and Brubek's as what caused their opinion of the 3rd Imperium to hit rock bottom.
Hire a couple of serious historians and anthropologists to sort all this out and make it logical.
Address the setting issue.
Make Charted Space the default setting, and rework it to address the problems, inconsistencies, and contradictions in it. Make it consistent, plausible, and logical. Jettison the idea that the Imperium rules the space between the stars and that members worlds are independent as long as they obey nebulous Imperial law. The Imperium isn't a commonwealth or an association, it's an empire, and empires don't work like that. The rich and powerful want more riches and power (don't we all). Be explicit that the Imperial feudal lord in charge of a planet is responsible for maintaining order and keeping trade and taxes flowing, but other than that, planetary governments are allowed local autonomy. If people say well that's not Traveller, say Mongoose is the sole owner of Traveller now, and has the power to say what's Traveller and what's not. Even that doesn't matter since we all do whatever we want in our own TU's anyway.
Keep all the create your own setting tools, keep all of them for people who want to use them. Make them robust and available for people who want to use them to change or add to the Charted Space setting. They're not only for people who want to create a whole new setting. And also rework them. Adjust them to minimize results like TL1 people on hellworlds, and TL15 worlds with tiny populations, like 5 guys crouched around a TL15 keg. That or change the definition of TL to include the meaning of a world only having high TL installations or facilities, not only a world with TL 15 production facilities.
Figure out how jump drive works, and why it uses all that hydrogen. That was only written in to Traveller to create frontiers and limit the range of FTL travel, it never had a reason. And don't use that specious idea that the hydrogen is squirted out around the ship to protect it while it's in jump space either. Then it's not fuel at all. I don't mean a hard science explanation, and I mean something just plausible enough to answer the question, like the jump drive through the magic of handwavium converts all that hydrogen to energy almost instantly to create the burst of energy necessary to shift the ship into jumpspace or something. It doesn't have to be hard.
And for the love of Charted Space, figure out Vilani culture. Go with descriptions of the Vilani in MgT2e and the other editions of Traveller, then hire a cultural or four-field anthropologist to create a coherent culture out of all the snippets and comments about Vilani culture over all the editions of Traveller. If I can draw a conclusion from identifying all the comments in a book to quibble on this forum, then surely it's possible. IMO Mongoose should have an anthropologist advise for all of Traveller's races and nations (Chanestin, Sylean, etc. etc.). Give the Vilani their rightful place as the majority population in the 3rd Imperium. Make language and culture matter.
In the supplements about the regions of Charted Space, like the Solomani and so on, put in tailored customized character generation tables for those peoples or races, like the CT Alien modules. The CRB character generation will serve as a foundation with an Imperial focus, and the regional supplements should provide tailored character generation for the people in those regions. Make a real book for the Solomani, like a book about the Solomani Confederation, not just a book about the Solomani Rim. We're getting books for the Aslan, and we need them for the major empires in the Vargr Extents.
And I did a slight bit of research on reddit about why people don't like the 3rd Imperium as a setting. The primary issue was that these people would rather create their own settings. Fine, Traveller has the tools to let them do that.
The other complaint was that the 3rd Imperium was too stable, and that the highly independent nobles and so on would revolt and there would be civil wars, and so on.
The 3rd Imperium has had a ruinous civil war and plenty of related strife, and a devastating revolt in the form of the Solomani Rim War, but the main reason that the 3rd Imperium is as stable as it is, is because it does not depend on its vassal nobles for its military forces, and it never has. That's the big difference. Once the central authority directly controls a military that is powerful enough to utterly smash any one vassal or provincial governor, revolts tend to quiet right down. As I discussed in a post some time ago, there aren't revolts and civil wars because the Imperial nobles who control worlds are not those who control fleets, and the sector fleets are paid by and loyal to the Emperor alone, not the sector dukes. The military forces of a subsector duke or even a sector duke are completely overmatched by the forces directly controlled by the Emperor. People just see words like "nobles" or "feudal" and decide that there should be revolts and civil wars and so on like the middle ages, and don't think through anything else. I wonder if the people with this complaint would feel the same if the words were subsector governor and sector governor instead of "duke" which is just the evolution of the Latin dux, which means military commander.
Another complaint was that monarchy in a sci fi setting doesn't make sense. Well, tell that to Kim Jong Un. North Korea has been a monarchy since the first Kim in 1947, the Eternal President. Monarchy is one of the most natural forms of government, and some kind of feudalism (the central authority assigns a person to manage an asset and in return that person is allowed to profit from it to some extent) is a very effective system for a sci fi setting with long communication and travel times. Monarchy has been humanity's primary form of government for thousands of years. In a sci fi setting with long communication and travel times, monarchy is a stabilizing force. Instead of requiring all the provincial governors and powerful military commanders to travel for months to get to the capitol where they can do all the politicking they need to do to choose a new ruler, with a monarchy, especially an absolute monarchy, the process of choosing a new ruler is stabilized into simply accepting the child or official heir of the previous ruler. No one has to travel, all that has to happen is for the representatives of the provincial governors at court to send a message to their provincial governors saying, "The king is dead, succession is legitimate, long live the king."
The last complaint was that the 3rd Imperium was stale and boring. I can't fault them for this one. The role of nobles was vague and poorly explained (they didn't really seem to do much of anything, there weren't supposed to involve themselves in the worlds they were assigned to, etc.), the space between the stars doctrine made the Imperium so remote as to be nonexistent, the cultures of the Imperial were vague or completely undefined, and really, it was stale and boring. Despite the decades I've been playing Traveller, I felt the same way. I always had to reimagine it, IMTU it, and do what I had to do to make the the star of the Charted Space setting shine. The most enthusiastic I've felt about the 3rd Imperium is when I wrote the Dark Imperium thread.
https://forum.mongoosepublishing.com/threads/thoughts-on-the-dark-imperium.125481/
https://forum.mongoosepublishing.co...uture-of-traveller.123226/page-43#post-993236
Granted, the current Third Imperium book did a lot to alleviate this issue, but there still needs to much more done. And somebody called out Astroburgers and Brubek's as what caused their opinion of the 3rd Imperium to hit rock bottom.
Hire a couple of serious historians and anthropologists to sort all this out and make it logical.
MarcusIII
Cosmic Mongoose
I already fixed most of what you are pointing out for my TU. LONG ago. Traveller doesn't need a default setting any more than D&D does though. That is one of the current problems.
actionman
Emperor Mongoose
We all did. We had to.
Nothing needs a default setting, but as @Condottiere mentioned, people want interesting settings to experience and play in.
I've stated in a number of posts what I think. *shrug*
MarcusIII
Cosmic Mongoose
Right so several settings, NONE of the a default setting.
actionman
Emperor Mongoose
Whichever setting becomes most popular will become the default setting. Greyhawk was D&D's default setting, but it was supplanted by Forgotten Realms.
I don't think it matters too much once people get into Traveller, but in the beginning, providing new players with an engaging setting is important.
EDIT: I wonder what would happen if we all got a template and we all created our IMTU settings for download or pay what you want on drivethru.
MarcusIII
Cosmic Mongoose
A Default setting is set by the publisher. Greyhawk setting was written into the rules as the default setting. It didn't get there from players liking it more than other settings.
actionman
Emperor Mongoose
You got that right. So with that clarification, IMO Mongoose should ship Traveller with a default setting, so people have a setting to play in without having to buy another book.
MarcusIII
Cosmic Mongoose
Totally agree. I just don't want it baked into the rules.
A starter set with a mini setting about the size of the Estuary cluster (ie 10 pages or so) and an adventure would be a useful thing.
Putting Charted Space back into the Core Rulebook would, presumably, cause the problems that got it pulled out in the first place. Namely that it took the place of actual rules (like basic ship building) that people wanted more than they wanted a very superficial bit of setting.
Putting Charted Space back into the Core Rulebook would, presumably, cause the problems that got it pulled out in the first place. Namely that it took the place of actual rules (like basic ship building) that people wanted more than they wanted a very superficial bit of setting.
actionman
Emperor Mongoose
Perhaps the CRB could contain rules not dependent on any setting, more generic, I guess, and then a setting section in the book gives an overview of the Charted Space setting so people have something to start playing in right away. Then the Third Imperium setting book could contain tailored character generation and so forth, as well as a deep description of the Third Imperium. Then additional Charted Space books would cover the Solomani Confederation, the Aslan, the Vargr Extents, and so on.
I still say the issue isn't really with the detail of the 3I as setting but its scope. Even a subsector is a lot of map; everything above that is overwhelming, and resources like Travellermap make it very hard for a Referee to reign in a player group that decide to go and check out that bit over there. Or to focus on one small part. It's a setting that breaks the neurodivergent, especially if choice paralysis is a factor... you can do anything, so you end up doing nothing.
Cluster Truck is a good example of addressing that. That campaign is grounded in a small map, with sensible built in limits to discourage moving out of it. It probably wouldn't make a good core setting, but an isolated subsector that's built as a realm of adventure might be.
Cluster Truck is a good example of addressing that. That campaign is grounded in a small map, with sensible built in limits to discourage moving out of it. It probably wouldn't make a good core setting, but an isolated subsector that's built as a realm of adventure might be.
And as I've said, maybe some new way to directly reward players for playing. Money either needs to be kept tight to drive the narrative if that's important, or quickly becomes meaningless. There's little problem shopping for all the toys and artifacts should be rare. Gaining skill levels faster that Mongoose already allows would skew things too much, although you COULD replace or supplement training periods with slow gain experience from skill use. But I doubt that will attract players used to adding a feat or other perk every few sessions.
Maybe look at a narrative economy? WEG Star Wars had the Force Points, where you burned them to make things happen and were rewarded for doing so heroically, or at a dramatically appropriate moment? Not suggesting Traveller needs to look at the morality of actions at all, but stuff like this both helps the story happen how everyone wants it to and gives the players something at a game mechanic level to play for.
Maybe look at a narrative economy? WEG Star Wars had the Force Points, where you burned them to make things happen and were rewarded for doing so heroically, or at a dramatically appropriate moment? Not suggesting Traveller needs to look at the morality of actions at all, but stuff like this both helps the story happen how everyone wants it to and gives the players something at a game mechanic level to play for.
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