How long to activate the Jump Drive?

[MrUkpyr]

Hello everyone,

I've a simple question.

We are going into Jump. Engineer starts the Jump process, and sometime later the lanthium grid is charged and the ship goes into Jump.

How long does it take from "starts the Jump Process" to "Lanthium grid is charged and ship goes into Jump".

Thanks
MrUkpyr

 

[MasterGwydion]

Hello everyone,

I've a simple question.

We are going into Jump. Engineer starts the Jump process, and sometime later the lanthium grid is charged and the ship goes into Jump.

How long does it take from "starts the Jump Process" to "Lanthium grid is charged and ship goes into Jump".

Thanks
MrUkpyr

In MgT:

1D6x10 minutes as a base. This is how long it takes to jump when the Engineer makes the check. He can do it faster 1D6minutes with a penalty to his DM or he can go slower 1D6 hours for a bonus to his DM. It happens simultaneously with the check, so 1D6x10 minutes, start to finish.

 

[Rikki Tikki Traveller]

I use one combat turn. The engineer states "Activing Jump" at the beginning of the turn - the ship jumps at the end of that turn (between turns if you will) - so damage taken during that turn COULD affect the jump.

 

[MasterGwydion]

I use one combat turn. The engineer states "Activing Jump" at the beginning of the turn - the ship jumps at the end of that turn (between turns if you will) - so damage taken during that turn COULD affect the jump.

Do you use the penalty on the Engineering Check for performing the action 1 turn faster than normal? Or add a penalty if the ship uses it's Thrust in the round? Do you also have the ship exit jumpspace at the same speed and vector that it entered jumpspace at? All of these are good ways to make mid-combat jumps dangerous, moreso if you also use the rules from the Jump Drive section of the Traveller Companion.

 

[GamingGlen]

Hello everyone,

I've a simple question.

We are going into Jump. Engineer starts the Jump process, and sometime later the lanthium grid is charged and the ship goes into Jump.

How long does it take from "starts the Jump Process" to "Lanthium grid is charged and ship goes into Jump".

Thanks
MrUkpyr

In MgT:

1D6x10 minutes as a base. This is how long it takes to jump when the Engineer makes the check. He can do it faster 1D6minutes with a penalty to his DM or he can go slower 1D6 hours for a bonus to his DM. It happens simultaneously with the check, so 1D6x10 minutes, start to finish.

This is a ridiculous amount of time. It can take an hour? Most stories I've seen or read never took that long, usually it's fairly quick unless there's some drama to be had. The longest I've seen was in the recent Battlestar Galactica series with the episode "33" where it took 33 minutes to recycle whatever FTL drive they used. I normally just go with "you jump" and not worry about some time delay.

Even 10 minutes minimum? What decrepit machinery is the jump drive? Or do we need to wait for the ship's shaman to put on face paint and prance about waving a feathered wand to drive away evil spirits?

 

[MasterGwydion]

Hello everyone,

I've a simple question.

We are going into Jump. Engineer starts the Jump process, and sometime later the lanthium grid is charged and the ship goes into Jump.

How long does it take from "starts the Jump Process" to "Lanthium grid is charged and ship goes into Jump".

Thanks
MrUkpyr

In MgT:

1D6x10 minutes as a base. This is how long it takes to jump when the Engineer makes the check. He can do it faster 1D6minutes with a penalty to his DM or he can go slower 1D6 hours for a bonus to his DM. It happens simultaneously with the check, so 1D6x10 minutes, start to finish.

This is a ridiculous amount of time. It can take an hour? Most stories I've seen or read never took that long, usually it's fairly quick unless there's some drama to be had. The longest I've seen was in the recent Battlestar Galactica series with the episode "33" where it took 33 minutes to recycle whatever FTL drive they used. I normally just go with "you jump" and not worry about some time delay.

Even 10 minutes minimum? What decrepit machinery is the jump drive? Or do we need to wait for the ship's shaman to put on face paint and prance about waving a feathered wand to drive away evil spirits?

My guess would be that the J-Drive isn't what takes the time. It is the pushing the Power Plant into overdrive processing all of the jump fuel into energy and charging the capacitors which make up 20% the volume of the J-Drive. I remember reading it somewhere, but I have no idea where I saw it.

As to the time needed to jump, that 1D6x10 minutes is the "safe jump" timeframe. The "combat jump" timeframe is only 1d6 minutes or one round of combat at a -2DM for rushing. Being able to jump in one round of combat seems fine to me.

 

[Condottiere]

Maybe once a upon a time.

Batteries don't need time to warm up, or overclock.

 

[MasterGwydion]

Maybe once a upon a time.

Batteries don't need time to warm up, or overclock.

How many batteries are needed for roughly 10 Power Points per ton of J-Drive? and batteries have to be charged as well.

 

[Condottiere]

You have potentially a fortnight to recharge the batteries, which are either forty or sixty power points per tonne.

Though you could also do that during the transition, if the power plant is running above basic, so that would be three weeks.

That's the current rule set, the only exception being solar panels to directly power the jump drive.

 

[MasterGwydion]

You have potentially a fortnight to recharge the batteries, which are either forty or sixty power points per tonne.

Though you could also do that during the transition, if the power plant is running above basic, so that would be three weeks.

That's the current rule set, the only exception being solar panels to directly power the jump drive.

Does this mean that jump fuel is no longer needed?

 

[Condottiere]

Only if you have collectors.

Speculatively, the rule change may have been to cover a plot hole caused by the ecks boat.

 

[PsiTraveller]

You need fuel (refined to hydrogen preferably), and you need power. The hydrogen used, (10% of hull times distance) is not used in the power plants.

Jump travel is the only known means by which a vessel
may travel faster than light. To jump, a ship creates
a bubble of hyperspace by means of injecting highenergy
exotic particles into an artificial singularity. The
singularity is driven out of our universe, creating a tiny
parallel universe that is then blown up like a balloon
by injecting hydrogen into it. The jump bubble is folded
around the ship, carrying it into the little pocket universe
2022 update pg 157

So the power needed is to create the hyperspace bubble, and the hydrogen is used to inflate the bubble.

 

[MasterGwydion]

You need fuel (refined to hydrogen preferably), and you need power. The hydrogen used, (10% of hull times distance) is not used in the power plants.

Jump travel is the only known means by which a vessel
may travel faster than light. To jump, a ship creates
a bubble of hyperspace by means of injecting highenergy
exotic particles into an artificial singularity. The
singularity is driven out of our universe, creating a tiny
parallel universe that is then blown up like a balloon
by injecting hydrogen into it. The jump bubble is folded
around the ship, carrying it into the little pocket universe
2022 update pg 157

So the power needed is to create the hyperspace bubble, and the hydrogen is used to inflate the bubble.

How does this apply with a jump grid as opposed to a jump bubble?

This is from a post I had on a different thread.

http://forum.mongoosepublishing.com/viewtopic.php?f=89&t=56872&start=3820#p954490

 

[Condottiere]

No one knows, or if they do know, they're not telling.

It's pretty much speculative.

 

[Sigtrygg]

Oh dear.

Perhaps the author of that 2022 update should do their research a little better.

MgT has actually reprinted MWM's Jumpspace article, and T5 is the final word on OTU tech.

The jump procedure does not require hydrogen to inflate jump bubble in the OTU.

Note that collector based jump drives do not use hydrogen fuel, and nor do antimatter based jump drives.

Here is what MWM has to say on how jump works:
"Jumping uses large amounts of energy to rip open the barriers between
normal space and jump space."
note here that jump space is described as higher dimensions that exist, the jump drive does not create its own universe as 2022 describes
"When the jump drive is activated, a large store of fuel is fed through the
ship’s power plant to create the energy necessary for the jump drive. In
the interests of rapid energy generation, the power plant does not work
at full efficiency, and some of the fuel is lost in carrying off fusion byproducts,
and in cooling the system. At the end of a very brief period (less
than a few minutes), the jump drive capacitors have been charged to
capacity. Under computer control, the energy is then fed into appropriate
sections of the jump drive and jump begins.
The drive’s first function is to tear a hole in the fabric of space. The hole is
precisely created and the ship naturally falls into the breach on a carefully
directed vector. The drive then directs some of its energy to sewing up
that hole again. The act of closing the hole severs the ship’s ties with
normal space and allows it to begin its jump."
no hydrogen filled bubble you will notice
"The hull of a starship must not only be constructed to withstand normal
space; it also must withstand the rigors of jump space. Starship hulls
contain as an integral part of their structure a network of wiring which
maintains the jump field around the ship. Without this field, the natural
physics of jump space would intrude into the ship’s interior and the alien
physical principles would make life impossible, operation of equipment
unpredictable, and even the passage of time would be altered. Breaks in
the protective network within a starship’s hull are a primary cause of the
loss of ships when jumping."
and there you go, the hull cable network maintains a field, not a hydrogen filled bubble.

But hey, what does MWM know about his own game...

 

[Geir]

Well, if we're going to go around quoting Marc and referencing T5, it also says (version 5.10, Book 2, page 73):
------------
JUMP BUBBLE
A Jump Bubble creates a spherical field around the ship and centered on the jump drive. Jump Bubble is the standard for generating a Jump Field; it does not interfere with armor and produces a standard jump flash.
Jump Bubble allows a ship to vary its effective tonnage from mission to mission (which makes Drop Tanks and Variable Jump Container Ships possible).

Difficulties. A Jump Bubble may enclose nearby debris, which may result in a Jump Mishap.
------------
Italics added. That same page also lists a Jump Grid and Jump Plates, the later stating "The original system for creating a Jump Field consisted of Bolt-On Jump Plates"

Truth is, 45 years later, the answer to how it works is 'it depends'.

Other truth is that any reading of T5 makes me reach for my migraine medicine. Everything is in there, but finding it (and not finding a contradiction three pages later) is a challenge.
And in any case, MgT does not necessarily conform to T5. The mechanics are different and the design systems don't match.

 

[MasterGwydion]

Well, if we're going to go around quoting Marc and referencing T5, it also says (version 5.10, Book 2, page 73):
------------
JUMP BUBBLE
A Jump Bubble creates a spherical field around the ship and centered on the jump drive. Jump Bubble is the standard for generating a Jump Field; it does not interfere with armor and produces a standard jump flash.
Jump Bubble allows a ship to vary its effective tonnage from mission to mission (which makes Drop Tanks and Variable Jump Container Ships possible).

Difficulties. A Jump Bubble may enclose nearby debris, which may result in a Jump Mishap.
------------
Italics added. That same page also lists a Jump Grid and Jump Plates, the later stating "The original system for creating a Jump Field consisted of Bolt-On Jump Plates"

Truth is, 45 years later, the answer to how it works is 'it depends'.

Other truth is that any reading of T5 makes me reach for my migraine medicine. Everything is in there, but finding it (and not finding a contradiction three pages later) is a challenge.
And in any case, MgT does not necessarily conform to T5. The mechanics are different and the design systems don't match.

It would make the most sense to Me as a Referee, that all of the above are true, they just represent different technologies and methods for achieving the same result. "Standard" J-Drives with a "Standard" Fusion Power Plant, use the "Jump Bubble Method" and therefore require large amounts of hydrogen fuel. A "Standard" J-Drive with an Antimatter Power Plant, does not require hydrogen fuel to create the jump bubble, because it does the same thing using only a small amount of antimatter instead. Then you have the "Jump Grid Method". This is not so much a jump bubble as it is a form-fitting jump shell made of energy from the J-Drives capacitors and channeled through the jump grid. Losing power in jump space is a death sentence. With this method if you use hydrogen fuel, it is used up maintaining power to the jump grid during the jump. With antimatter, the same small bit of antimatter as is used with the "Jump Bubble Method" is used here as well. Finally you have the "Collector Method" which does make a jump bubble, but does not require fuel of any kind, just power to the J-Drive.

That is My take on it anyhow.

 

[Geir]

Losing power in jump space is a death sentence.

I would think so, but you know, I can't think of anywhere where that's directly discussed. I mean, losing power obviously will effect life support and that's a thing. But I don't think the jump bubble (if we're going with that) collapses. I cannot remember the source after all these years (and I keep thinking this also came from Marc at some point) but J-Space was supposed to be a pocket universe that collapsed after a week, so no matter what, the bubble persisted until it 'popped' you back into normal space. The good news is that even within the OTU nobody really understands how the jump drive works and what jump space is.

The reason I prefer the bubble over the grid or plates is that the mechanics don't deal well with hull damage causing j-drive issues (except through a critical hit). Plus, like the excerpt states, it allows for things like drop tanks (although, since external jump nets cost more than external cargo nets, we've hedged a bit on that...). I'm going to go with: "Jump space is." and not pop the handwavium bubble.

 

[MasterGwydion]

Losing power in jump space is a death sentence.

I would think so, but you know, I can't think of anywhere where that's directly discussed. I mean, losing power obviously will effect life support and that's a thing. But I don't think the jump bubble (if we're going with that) collapses. I cannot remember the source after all these years (and I keep thinking this also came from Marc at some point) but J-Space was supposed to be a pocket universe that collapsed after a week, so no matter what, the bubble persisted until it 'popped' you back into normal space. The good news is that even within the OTU nobody really understands how the jump drive works and what jump space is.

The reason I prefer the bubble over the grid or plates is that the mechanics don't deal well with hull damage causing j-drive issues (except through a critical hit). Plus, like the excerpt states, it allows for things like drop tanks (although, since external jump nets cost more than external cargo nets, we've hedged a bit on that...). I'm going to go with: "Jump space is." and not pop the handwavium bubble.

Anything using the "Jump Bubble Method" and I agree that the J-Drive losing power is not important as long as you have Life Support, because the jump bubble will not collapse before it's allotted time. The "Jump Grid Method" would kill you without power to maintain the energy-based "jump field". The jump grid method is the only only that uses the jump grid and the only one that has energy-based protection against the environment that is jumpspace. All of the other methods use a particle decay method to build the jump bubble while also determining its "lifespan" aka time in jump space as well as distance travelled. This would also explain the reason for increased misjumps when using unrefined fuel, the impurities in the unrefined fuel can cause the jump bubble to provide incomplete protection against the environment of jumpapace.

This basically means that you can jury rig a power system repair and jump away before your power plant fails, but if you are using a jump grid, you're dead because the power will fail and allow whatever jumpspace is made up of to get inside the ship killing everyone. lol All of the other types, you'd exit jumpspace just fine, and still be alive as long as you can manage basic life support.

I believe that this would be an elegant solution to the jump drive discrepancies. Anyone see any holes in these ideas?

 

[Sigtrygg]

Note that the bubble T5 refers to is a bubble of our normal spacetime and quantum fields - this bubble of normal space is maintained by the hull.

It is not hydrogen filled, it is a vacuum of four dimensional spacetime and the fundamental quantum fields of our universe maintained as a bubble of the quantum foam that makes up the jump dimensions.

In T5 the hull grid wiring maintains the normal universe field conformal to the hull and a metre or so extended beyond it. It is a field, not a bubble of hydrogen.
The jump bubble version extends the normal space bubble as a sphere around the ship, but again it is a field that maintains our normal space within, and once again it is not filled with hydrogen.