How jump works

[Sigtrygg]

If one source says hydrogen filled jump-bubble, and another says a Collector collects particles, I would infer a Collector collects some hydrogen since both sources are canon.

It specifically states it collects exotic particles, no mention whatsoever of hydrogen. There is no evidence it is collecting hydrogen, or it would be mentioned.

I would infer absolutely nothing about lanthanum from those sources.

Why would you?

So, we can infer some things, but not whatever we want.

There must be evidence.

 

[AnotherDilbert]

It specifically states it collects exotic particles, no mention whatsoever of hydrogen. There is no evidence it is collecting hydrogen, or it would be mentioned.

Absence of evidence isn't evidence of absence.

Does it say it collect pi-mesons?
Exactly what "exotic particles" does a Collector collects?
It does not say, so we don't know. We can't assume it does or doesn't collect pi-mesons, we just does not know.

If another source said the Collector regularly use pi-mesons, then it's a fair assumption that a Collector collects pi-mesons.

Why would you?

Exactly. Since it does not mention lanthanum, I would infer nothing about lanthanum.

If a source does not mention hydrogen, I would infer nothing about the existence or lack thereof from that.

There must be evidence.

Yes, and if there is no evidence?
We don't know, and can infer nothing.

 

[Terry Mixon]

 

[AnotherDilbert]

If one source has a rule and the other has a different rule, that is a contradiction.

No, not unless they are mutually exclusive.

If one rule states a sunhat prevents sunburn, and another rule states that sunscreen prevents sunburn, that is not a contradiction. They can both be true.

One source says you need a fusion or AM plant, the other source says a battery is allowed then it is a contradiction.

No, you need Power (or valid replacement) AND jump fuel (or valid replacement), just as in T4.
Yes, you need Power (or a battery).
Yes, you need fuel and fusion plant to burn it (or a Collector).
Both are true.

One source saying you must have a hydrogen filled bubble but another source not mentioning it and not requiring any hydrogen at all is a contradiction.

No, one source saying hydrogen-filled bubble and another source saying nothing about it is not a contradiction.

 

[Sigtrygg]

Absence of evidence isn't evidence of absence.

Logical fallacy, often seen on the interwebs.

Argument from ignorance - Wikipedia

en.wikipedia.org

Does it say it collect pi-mesons?

Very doubtful because of the properties of pi-mesons

Exactly what "exotic particles" does a Collector collects?

The minimum excitation of the jump quantum field or jump particles as I called them originally.

Or if you want a longer answer:

energy imparted to a quantum field in a particular way creates a localised, quantised excitation that behaves like a particle. These excitations follow the rules of quantum mechanics, i.e. exhibiting wave-particle duality, obeying Heisenberg's uncertainty principle, and interactions based on quantum probabilities.

Particles are not really "balls", it is more accurate to describe them as temporary, quantised "kinks" in the fabric of a quantum field. Everything we consider "matter" or "forces" ultimately emerges from these excitations, and that includes jump mechanics. A jump particle, or exotic jump particle, or exotic particle, is a temporary quantised spike in the underlying jump quantum field. The jump field has a property similar to the Higgs field in that it can undergo tachyonic condensation as its symmetry spontaneously breaks, one of the results of which is a temporary parting of regular spacetime to reveal the hyperspace dimension sometimes refereed to as the jump dimensions. A portal to another universe. Sufficient exotic particles or transferring energy to the symmetry breaking holds the rip open long enough to be completely swallowed by this hyperspace tare

It does not say, so we don't know. We can't assume it does or doesn't collect pi-mesons, we just does not know.

I do know, I invented the exotic particle concept.

The pi-meson is not all that exotic.

If another source said the Collector regularly use pi-mesons, then it's a fair assumption that a Collector collects pi-mesons.

But it doesn't, so there is no evidence, so there is no justification for saying it does.

Exactly. Since it does not mention lanthanum, I would infer nothing about lanthanum.

That has nothing to do with the use of batteries rather than power plants of the use of exotic particles, or the hydrogen bubble, for the simple fact that they are all mentioned.

If a source does not mention hydrogen, I would infer nothing about the existence or lack thereof from that.

But the sources do mention hydrogen or the lack of it (as fuel), or its use in a jump bubble, or absence of it.

Yes, and if there is no evidence?

The evidence is in black and white in the books.

You don't see any contradiction, fine. A lot of other people do see those contradictions.

We don't know, and can infer nothing.

Hence the fallacy of the absence of evidence isn't evidence of absence argument.

 

[Sigtrygg]

No, not unless they are mutually exclusive.

Which they are. One rule states you must have a fusion or AM plant, another rule says you can use a collector, another rule says you can use a battery.

If one rule states a sunhat prevents sunburn, and another rule states that sunscreen prevents sunburn, that is not a contradiction. They can both be true.

If one states a sunhat prevents sunburn, and the other says there is no such thing as a sunhat you get burned. Jump drive with fusion, AM , battery - hydrogen bubble.
Collector, no hydrogen bubble.

No, you need Power (or valid replacement) AND jump fuel (or valid replacement), just as in T4.

Not for a collector. And in T4 all the power has to come from the power plant does it not? Not from batteries. Will have to go look that one up.

Yes, you need Power (or a battery).

The rule says you have to have a fusion or AM plant, then this is contradicted by stating a battery can be used.

Yes, you need fuel and fusion plant to burn it (or a Collector).
Both are true.

No, the battery is providing the power.

By the rules as written a battery could be charged by an external power plant and power the jump drive, except that the jump drive requires a hydrogen filled bubble, except that it doesn't because a collector powered jump drive has no fuel...

You could build a ship with a non-gravitic hull to reduce system EP cost and then install a fission plant or even a solar panel array, to power the ship systems. You can then use batteries to power your jump drive.

No, one source saying hydrogen-filled bubble and another source saying nothing about it is not a contradiction.

In your opinion, not in mine.

 

[Bense]

Collectors become available at TL14. They can be used only to power the jump drive. They do not require any hydrogen fuel. Their primary drawbacks are that a ship using a collector must be not expending thrust or in an atmosphere for a week in order to fully charge. They replace the need to carry fuel for the jump.

The fact that they can only power the jump drive and that a ship using one needs no hydrogen fuel to jump implies that the "exotic particles" they collect are used as a replacement for the hydrogen bubble a regular jump drive produces.

They're in the Exotic Technologies section of High Guard, and are considered optional, so they don't really need to be consistent with the regular rules.

 

[Sigtrygg]

They are part of the Third Imperium setting.

 

[Terry Mixon]

Collectors become available at TL14. They can be used only to power the jump drive. They do not require any hydrogen fuel. Their primary drawbacks are that a ship using a collector must be not expending thrust or in an atmosphere for a week in order to fully charge. They replace the need to carry fuel for the jump.

The fact that they can only power the jump drive and that a ship using one needs no hydrogen fuel to jump implies that the "exotic particles" they collect are used as a replacement for the hydrogen bubble a regular jump drive produces.

They're in the Exotic Technologies section of High Guard, and are considered optional, so they don't really need to be consistent with the regular rules.

Make them modular and have a collector farm that swaps them out as needed.

 

[Bense]

They are part of the Third Imperium setting.

I know of a total of two published ship designs that use them in 2nd edition. One is a high-tech Darrian deep-space exploration ship and the other is the totally unique Annic Nova. Omitting them would not be canon-breaking unless your players have the Annic Nova as their ship.

 

[Bense]

Make them modular and have a collector farm that swaps them out as needed.

That would probably work as long as you have a farm at every stop you're going to make and the time to replace the collector takes less than the week it would take to just charge it.

Maybe you could come up with some kind of "exotic particle storage battery" instead of replacing the entire collector each time.

 

[Condottiere]

At this point, I doubt Mongoose either wants, or thinks it's a good idea, to define it.

But, there are more ways than one to skin a dead, or alive, cat.

 

[Condottiere]

 

[Terry Mixon]

That would probably work as long as you have a farm at every stop you're going to make and the time to replace the collector takes less than the week it would take to just charge it.

Maybe you could come up with some kind of "exotic particle storage battery" instead of replacing the entire collector each time.

Get the brains at Vincennes working on that. STAT!

 

[Vormaerin]

I know of a total of two published ship designs that use them in 2nd edition. One is a high-tech Darrian deep-space exploration ship and the other is the totally unique Annic Nova. Omitting them would not be canon-breaking unless your players have the Annic Nova as their ship.

Of course you can change the rules. That doesn't change the fact that they are in the rules if you are discussing what the rules ARE. Either published designs reflect the rules or they don't.

The fact is that collectors power the jump drive per Mongoose. That's even more explicit in the two other versions of collectors in Traveller (CT and T5). They don't fuel the power plant and they don't inflate the jump bubble, at least not in any description actually given in any book.

The restriction on Collectors as power plants is that they have to dump all the energy at once, which means they are not very useful for most purposes. None of the other systems on the ship need only a couple minutes of power. This is more obvious with non MgT collectors that don't have "accumulators".

Collectors were first published in 1979, so the article was likely written when jump drives used the fuel directly and no power plant was involved. Which is also the origin of the X-boat problem. This idea was inexplicably dropped in the 1980 version of the rules, which is why we have to have all these mental gymnastics about power plant overdrive mode.

 

[Condottiere]

Military utility for Collectors is priceless.

I always had the impression that the Annic Nova was meant to be an anomaly.

 

[Longboat]

They really need to come up with one way it works and invalidate the others.

What's wrong with giving the Ref a lot of choice. The Ref decides how jump works in his campaign.

That's really closer to original Traveller.

 

[Terry Mixon]

What's wrong with giving the Ref a lot of choice. The Ref decides how jump works in his campaign.

That's really closer to original Traveller.

Sure, they could just say make it up for yourselves, but that breeds chaos. If a ref wants to change the default let them, but make a decision on how it works in the rules first.

 

[rinku]

Annic Nova is a ghost ship and a mystery. I'm not aware that it's origin was ever really nailed down, probably deliberately so. It was crewed by aliens of an unknown species and used alternative technology.

Did it come from another dimension? Did it come from a distant part of our galaxy? Or another galaxy? Or the future? Or the distant past?

But all its existence means is that there are alien technologies that can be used to enter jumpspace without hydrogen fuel. Might those be discoverable by scientists of Charted Space? Sure. Especially if the sole example of a collector powered J-Drive were to be studied and reverse engineered... eventually. The ship also has no M-Drive and is moved using the reaction drives of its small craft, acting as tugs, further reinforcing its alien, non-standard technological heritage. Whoever they are have discovered a way to enter jump space without using a large hydrogen volume, but they do not appear to have discovered M-Drives or Hydrogen Fusion. On the other hand, their spacesuits have oxygen regeneration built into the fabric, so that's nice. And they have discovered crayon technology.

It still uses Jump Space. It does not invalidate the statement about that being the only known way to travel faster than light.

 

[MasterGwydion]

No, not unless they are mutually exclusive.

If one rule states a sunhat prevents sunburn, and another rule states that sunscreen prevents sunburn, that is not a contradiction. They can both be true.



No, you need Power (or valid replacement) AND jump fuel (or valid replacement), just as in T4.
Yes, you need Power (or a battery).
Yes, you need fuel and fusion plant to burn it (or a Collector).
Both are true.



No, one source saying hydrogen-filled bubble and another source saying nothing about it is not a contradiction.

You seem to have come closer to understanding one another. Let Me try.

If one rule states that ONLY sunhats and sunscreen prevent sunburn, and a different book says that not going outside also prevents sunburn, then it is a contradiction, because "not going outside" is neither sunhats not sunscreen and yet, it prevents sunburn all the same.

Does that help?

One rule states that ONLY power from Fusion or Anti-matter plants can power jump drives. Another rule states that batteries can also power a jump drive. This violates the first rule because, obviously batteries are neither a fusion nor anti-matter power plant and yet, they can power the jump drive.

See how the statement above and the one below are the same statement just using different examples with the same words?

Hope this helped.