How do the Abbai win?

[ShopKeepJon]

I admit that I don't have a huge amount of experience with ACTA, but I have played a lot of miniatures games (including space battle games) and I just don't get the Abbai. What am I missing?

If there are any Abbai players out there who are winning with this fleet, please tell me how you do it.

ShopKeepJon

 

[Triggy]

The big thing you need to do with Abbai is get close with the enemy and as fast as you can. Use terrain if you can but you have to close at some point. Fighters are there only to stall the enemy so don't worry about trying to win dogfights but they can buy you more time.

Your attack ships are the Milani, Lakara and Juyaca, with the Tiraca playing this role too but also acting as a diversion for the enemy. Don't take more than one Bimith as it's a fairly poor choice but it can provide some cover for your fleet.

Try to use your initiative sinks to force the enemy to show how he's going to move for the turn before committing with your larger ships. Once you see where your opportunities are, try to get your ships getting as many arcs as possible on enemy ships.

Unlike other fleets, you don't really have any big guns so don't sacrifice postion for a "golden shot" as you don't have the weapons to justify the sacrifice. You need to keep your fleet together and work them together for victory. An example of this would be not going for an extra couple of inches of movement on your faster Tiracas to get them into beam range (with the rest of your fleet out of range), with the downside of getting inside enemy gun range. It's not worth the extra shots when your advanced ships will just get killed in the return fire.

Hope some of this starter helps.

 

[Ripple]

I'm having trouble as well, the Lakara seems to be almost as big a waste as the Bimith right now. The enemies I've been facing are getting two and three shots in before I can close range, that usually means the Milani's are long dead, and nothing on their side is more than banged up. The Juyaca at leasy is has enough firepower that if it does get there it kills things, the Lakara just seems to annoy everyone.

In particular I find I can't fight Vree, ISA or Shadows at all... and the Fast Minbari stack is nearly as back. I haven't tried Centauri or Narn yet.

How do you fight fighter stacks? I've tried using the Kotha loaned AF dice trick, but it isn't enough vs the bomber stacks.

It kills me as the Abbai were one of the technologically savvy races in the league, only held back by philosophy and raw economic size. Yet they have some of the weakest ships in space. Tough, but no maneuver, range or real punch.

I really don't understand why the combat laser didn't go out to range 18 in this edition like the Centauri one. With general range upgrades to a number of races the Abbai really needed some help. Add in the general interceptor upgrade given to everyone else (fighters) and even the quad arrays just become annoying. Insult to injury they stripped weapons and interceptors off ships that had the least real potential in the game.

I just don't get it, what was the supposed strength of this race?

Ripple

 

[Garibaldi]

Ripple,

I play Vree and I have lost to the Abbai every time I play against them!

one word: Interceptors!

Every weapon the Vree have is interceptor-able? So, just load up on them...then get in close and roll those 50 6 sided dice!

Boom!

 

[Ripple]

Maybe you missed second ed, but most of the interceptors are gone. They start to appear on the Bimith (1 die, the most important one true), Lakara (1 die again), Juyaca (2 dice, my personal sweet sport for interceptor bang for the buck). That's it, even the Brivioki gets none. Virtually every other fleet in the game has as many or more now that fighters can act as interceptors. With the exception of the Abbai, every other race has at least one choice that can act as an interceptor.

As to you losing to the Abbai with the Vree, maybe you should use the maneuverability and range advantage you have to not get in range of those quad arrays. You do realize that with the new Vree list you generally have range of 15 to 25 on all major guns. Five ships have range 10 guns and those are on the escort scout and the raid and higher ships.

While I can't argue the interceptable reality you face as the Vree, so do the Abbai, and if you look at the total AD in any one arc the numbers don't favor the Abbai by more than much, and yours are SAP, DD and/or twin linked. Given the range and arc advantage you have, you have much greater ability to concentrate fire and over come interceptors.

Given your fighters can act as interceptors, you even likely have to have a much higher number of ships with interceptors, if you can hold back from destroying ships with them.

So if your losing with the Vree to the Abbai, I have to ask are you doing flyovers with all power to engines after drawing the Abbai to a table edge, are you using your fighters to intercept when you get pressed, are you using your range advantage to get one to two shots before the abbai can respond with anything other than a one or two die combat laser?

All fairly important questions...and honestly I don't know what abbai fleet you have gone up against. Was it a 'swarm' fleet. I've found this to be the most effective Abbai fleet, all tiraca/milani ignoring the larger hulls. But this is more an issue with the fact that the game favors swarms than any strength the abbai have. It allows shots that simply cannot be gotten in larger ship formations.

Tell me more about your fights so I can get a better idea on how the Abbai manage to get range, and survive concentrated fire, something the shield is virtually useless against where interceptors had the fail safe of a flat 6+.

I know I sound testy but I really do want to know, as our Vree player is brutal against Abbai forces.

Ripple

 

[ShopKeepJon]

So, are there any other Abbai players out there?

If you win with them, tell us how you do it.
If you lose with them, tell us why it happens.

ShopKeepJon

 

[Jetbaker]

I am an abbai player that goes a different route. Since most of the Abbai guns are crap I look to ships that can survive the longest. With that I usually load up on Maratas and Bimiths with some actual damage ships like a pack of tiracas or if points allow Lakaras. Never forget that the Abbai scout serves a vital role in not allowing the other side to repair there crits.

As for battle tactics, I use the brick going through a glass house effect. I send my ships straight at the enemy as fast as they can. Sometimes I have used a pack tactic with some Tiracas as a flanking unit. Once I am within range I am able to deathblossom my bimiths. It might not sounds like it does a lot of damage but after awhile, or sooner with lucky crits, the Abbai ships should prove to be more resilient and destroy the enemy.

Thats my 2 cents.

 

[phoenixhawk]

I figured someone would say that the only way the Abbai win is to not fight.

Chris

 

[DontFearDaReaper]

I have also found the Abbai an extremely frustrating race to play especially with the mods in the 2nd edition. The combination of relatively slow/average speeds, lumbering for all Raid level and above ships, and short range weapons make them easy pickings for almost any other race.

I am playing in a campaign and the campaign master recently took pity on me and allowed me to expand into a League fleet instead of a pure Abbai fleet.

Am I missing something here? I would think ships that can't compete in in the game system wouldn't sell very well and isn't that what Mongoose really wants from business perspective?

Dave

 

[No. 1 Bear]

I think they should just drop the fighteres gun to 1ad and take away the weak trait. There you have your inteceptors.

 

[eldiablito]

I too, seem to think that the Abbai are fairly poor.

Brakiri have some decent ships and a solid amount of firepower. The range of their guns are pretty good on the Avioki and stronger too.

Drazi have lots of firepower and dodge to make up for all their boresights. They also have a decent initiative bonus to boot.

Gaim, well, there are plenty of threads that make them too good in some people's opinion. Lots of range, lots of fighters.

Pak'ma'ra are just tough buggers. Their lack of speed is offset by their innate 6+ save versus everything. Also, combined with the torpedoes, I do not think that they are lacking any firepower.

Vree are fragile, but very maneuverable and have lots of firepower.

What does the Abbai offer? They do not seem to have very good fighters, not very good small ships and even worse capital ships. They have a really bad initiative; fortunately, they have a patrol level scout to help them out in the beginning of the game. Their shields are interesting, but they just seem like weaker versions of interceptors to me... I have not seen shields in action, so I may just be fooling myself. The Abbai firepower isn't too bad with all the twin linked weapons, but this seems redundant as most scouts will not help their weapons in later games (AP would be better for this fleet). Then again, if I was to expand my league ships, why would I take something that would LOWER my already low initiative score?

Trying to make a race of pacifists interesting in a WARgame is completely at odds with itself. It is the same reason why no one paints up shakers or quakers in a colonial, historical wargame.

 

[DontFearDaReaper]

The scout ship for the Abbai (Shyarie class jammer frigate) is essentially unarmed. All it has is comm disruptors which do no damage all they do is give the enemy ship a -2 crew quality check modifier for a turn.

My very first game with the Shyarie we missed the fact that comm disruptors only affect CQ checks and ran them as real weapons. Closest I ever came to winning a game with the Abbai. :twisted: However since they are patrol my Narn opponent quickly took them out since they were they only real threat to him.

Dave

 

[Triggy]

The Abbai aren't too bad but really suffer from a lack of a viable Raid PL ship. The Bimith needs more manoeuvrability and/or more guns - until then it doesn't really add anything to a fleet. The larger ships are all ponderous but effective and the smaller ones are all only moderately tough in a bigger fight but can bring a lot of firepower in multiple arcs.

Improve the Bimith and the Abbai become a lot more fun to play.

 

[ShopKeepJon]

The scout ship for the Abbai (Shyarie class jammer frigate) is essentially unarmed. All it has is comm disruptors which do no damage all they do is give the enemy ship a -2 crew quality check modifier for a turn.

My very first game with the Shyarie we missed the fact that comm disruptors only affect CQ checks and ran them as real weapons. Closest I ever came to winning a game with the Abbai. :twisted: However since they are patrol my Narn opponent quickly took them out since they were they only real threat to him.

Dave

Comms Disruptors also force a CQ check to perform any special action, even those that are normally automatic. This can seriously mess with some fleets.

Weirdly enough it looks like Comms Disruptors can also kill fighters since all that requires is a hit instead of damage... :?

I've just played my first real game using Abbai (with counters). I can see where the designers were going with them. It just doesn't feel like they actually got there. It's possible that I'm missing something, but it feels like the fleet is missing something...

I started this thread because I just didn't get the Abbai. I still don't...

ShopKeepJon

 

[LaranosTZ]

I think the comms disrupters are appropriate for taking out fighters. Something powerfull enough to mess with a capital ships electronics and communication systems is likely to completely short out a fighter's systems.

 

[DontFearDaReaper]

I started this thread because I just didn't get the Abbai. I still don't...

I'm with you ShopKeeper. The only reason I even have an Abbai fleet is that I picked up a painted fleet up on Ebay for less than half the price of the unpainted metal. That didn't earn Mongoose a cent because I bought it in the aftermarket. Its so unplayable as a standalone fleet, I can't see myself get any more ships for it. I've played the Abbai against the Narn, the Drazi, EarthForce, Centauri, and the Minbari. They can't compete against any of those because they stay more than 8 inches away and slowly pick you apart with longer range weapons.

Yes, yes, following the fluff regarding the Abbai race its more "in character" to avoid combat altogether but you don't need to buy ships if you don't plan to fight which again, nets Mongoose no money.

 

[Ripple]

I did a series of five test games against EA (early and third), Drahk, Pak'ma'ra and Vree. The Abbai one a single battle against the early EA because my opponent allowed me to out sink him (early having a two for one buy it was a case of allowing). This became relevant in the end due to me having more ship to grab space as were were playing space superiority.

Oh, and my one win, largely due to his one heavy laser on the command hyperion missing four times out of the five or so it got to fire.

What did we learn, swarm fleets are tough, and don't have bad luck with your lasers. The other battles were not even relevant, the Abbai were wiped out without removing a single enemy ship in most cases, though a number of thresholds were earned.

Fleets tried for the abbai...
2 Lakara, 2 Milani - going for the idea that the ships are tough enough to outlast the opponent.

1 Bimith, 4 Milani, 2 Brisaria, 6 Tiraca - our one winning fleet.

1 Juyaca, ! Milani, 2 Brisaria - doesn't count as tried as the Juyaca was rendered weaponless before the end of turn two... consider it the sixth fight I guess...

2 Bimith, 3 Milani, 6 Tiraca - Destroyed, but was up against the Vree, went for combat lasers and enduring escorts to stop the fighter waves.

1 Lakara, 1 Bimith, 3 Milani, 2 Tiraca - lost to the pak, though it rendered two ships weaponless and inflicted a great deal of damage on the plasma hawks. Called battle due to time... but ships were out of position to continue firing much and the Pak weren't do to being able to fire outisde of their arc with mine trick and/or just more maneuverable.

The Abbai don't run from fights, their armed pacifists. They just won't start the fight and give YOU every opportunity to run. Our local Drahk/Dilgar player thinks they need the particle impeder system to make an appearance. Something like a the ability to make one ship have a harder time hitting you per number on the system. Give a Milani 1 or 2 and go up from there.

Not sure I agree, I think the issue is they need a weapon with more range, or ships with more maneuver (not speed so much...). I also think they need a bit more DD weaponry in the fleet... crit's that kill, as the all single damage just doesn't get you to the thresholds fast enough.

One thing they did wrong was take off the interceptor and replace with shields. The shield doesn't stop any damage, it just averages the damage, no crits but no bulkheads either. So what the abbai got was self-repair without the benefit on DC checks in place of their interceptors.

This was a huge loss, add in the increase in maneuver due to agile on enemy ships and lumbering on all their raid and above and.... well they just suck now. They can still win, but it's because they swarm... virtually any swarm fleet can win, it says nothing about the fleet.

The fluff puts the Lakara as one of the best defended ships in the galaxy, that needs to actually be true if the abbai are going to be viable.

The bimith need to actually be able to defend other ships in the fleet, or get a lot more maneuverable and stronger guns.

The milani needs carrier, even silly as it sounds carrier 1 so it can get all the Kotha off the ship on turn one. This is your main fighter ship, it needs to be able to take special actions by turn two.

marata - should have had command...

Tiraca - actually its okay... should have kept an interceptor die... but even as is it's not bad.

Brisaria - also fine... good like escort ship and the disruptors are nice.

Shyarie - as you can no longer redirect beams either scrap the ship altogether or get it some guns, fighters, something. It adds nothing to the fleet anymore.

Abbai also have a special action problem. To use their best abilities they cannot effectively use any SAs but all power and extra turn. They need to fire out of more than one arc and cannot increase their firepower in any way. You need to be able to increase defense or increase attack through SAs or you are at a serious disadvantage. If All hands increase shield repair, or if intensify defensive fire did something similar, maybe even CBD did... would make the system actually work.

Shield just fail as a primary defense for the abbai... frankly geg would have been a much better choice.

Ripple - hoping he's sobered up enough that made sense....

 

[No. 1 Bear]

Well Said.

 

[H]

hmm, I have to say in my playtesting for second ed, while most Abbai did die reasonably easily, the Juyaca repeatedly wiped out everything. of course this requires a high level game to field.
Of course my general feel is that abbai are left little weak hence why I wrote juyaie, but these are of course not official ships at all, so don't really help the issue.

Perhaps this is one of the fleets that will be looked at. Although i have a sneaky suspicion we will just get more EA ships instead!

 

[katadder]

one of the main problems was the fact they got downgunned but gained no real damage. lost interceptors as well. all for a 1 or 2 SR equivalent and no crits until shields are down, although this also means no bulkheads until shields are down also.

all secondary arrays need to go back to 1e levels. the bimith needs to gain its 2nd turn back and lose lumbering. possibly 1e interceptors back too as this is a short range fleet thats supposed to be able to take damage/hits.