How do the Abbai win?

[DontFearDaReaper]

Weirdly enough it looks like Comms Disruptors can also kill fighters since all that requires is a hit instead of damage...

Could someone from Mongoose please confirm or repute this assertion?

Thanks

Dave

 

[ShopKeepJon]

hmm, I have to say in my playtesting for second ed, while most Abbai did die reasonably easily, the Juyaca repeatedly wiped out everything. of course this requires a high level game to field.
Of course my general feel is that abbai are left little weak hence why I wrote juyaie, but these are of course not official ships at all, so don't really help the issue.

Perhaps this is one of the fleets that will be looked at. Although i have a sneaky suspicion we will just get more EA ships instead!

This got me thinking... Maybe we can get some feedback from the playtesters that worked on the Abbai.

So, to all of you playtesters out there, what was the big idea? What do the Abbai do really well?

While we're at it, what level of games were the Abbai tested at? Was it all across the PL spectrum or just at the higher end (where the Juyaca gets to play)?

ShopKeepJon

 

[Ripple]

Not sure they were tested in any kind of systematic fashion.

SFB had a food group approach to testing... go against a number of different strategies with each race, as long as it could win part of the time it was okay.

I know when our group saw the abbai, our initial reaction was they got screwed because Triggy won a tourney with an Abbai swarm. Folks acted as if the Abbai were tough because of it, when really it was swarms and triggy are tough.

Ripple

 

[ShopKeepJon]

Just for amusement and comment I offer these tidbits from the fleet list book...

The Abbai have perfected the powerful particle array turrets used by many other races. Designed to put out an oppressive rate of fire, the Abbai quad array fills space around most Abbai vessels with a cloud of deadly charged particle bursts. If forced to turn these weapons against fighters or small ships there is little hope for them... Larger targets should not consider themselves immune, as once a single Bimith Defender, a warship with a staggering number of quad arrays at its disposal, dismantled a Dilgar flagship into component parts with a single volley!

Wow! That was a lot of crits!

Other major advancements the Abbai have added to their fleets are primarily defensive. Rapid-firing particle impeders, streams that trigger ballistic impacts or alter particle blast routs (much like the Earth Alliance's interceptors), are considered basic ideas to the research scientists of the Abbai.

If it's basic, why do only three ships have them and why so few dice worth?

Augmenting many of their ships are situational gravitic shields. Like a defense turret that throws up a gravitic anomaly to stop incoming fire, the shield generators are very complex and extremely sensitive to abuse. A single misaligned crystal matrix could cause the anomaly to speed up instead of slow down incoming attacks, or even the collapse of the generator in a spectacular and expensive implosion.

If this is true, why does every Abbai ship have shields?:?


This makes me wonder if the Abbai aren't the poor stepchild of ACTA. "Don't worry dear. We'll get to you just as soon as we're done with the important members of the family..."

Mind you, this makes a certain amount of sense. Anyone getting into ACTA for the first time is going to go straight for the big name races. Those are the ones that are going to sell the most and get the most play so they should also get the most thorough testing.

But still, I can't help but feel sorry for the poor child that lives in the attic...

ShopKeepJon

 

[emperorpenguin]

So, to all of you playtesters out there, what was the big idea? What do the Abbai do really well?

While we're at it, what level of games were the Abbai tested at? Was it all across the PL spectrum or just at the higher end (where the Juyaca gets to play)?

ShopKeepJon

I tested them all across the PLs and I found them underpowered. I recommended range increases on their guns. I was also quite keen on changing their weaponry to better reflect their pacifism.
Weapons which caused critical effects without the damage for example

 

[Triggy]

I tested mainly the Tiraca and Milani in my battles and found that at Skirmish and Raid PLs they did (and IMO still do) perform pretty well - particularly at low PL games where they get a chance to recharge their shields over and over.

The Bimith is a lemon at the moment, the Lakara could possibly do with a bit more firepower and the Juyaca is actually pretty solid as the core of a large fleet. It's the Bimith where the Abbai really suffer though as they have an undergunned escort ship at the most important Priority Level (the combination of medium speed, short range and poor manoeuvrability doesn't do it any favours). Give it back a few more AD and Turns 2/45 without Lumbering and it would probably be a good choice again.

 

[Ripple]

We had some concerns with the Juyaca being able to reach the fight at speed five, but it actually is bigger than most ships of equal pl and shield regen usually stops a couple of hits a turn, even up against triple damage weapons.

Tiraca and Milani do well, though I still think it was a mistake to remove a die from the milani's beam, if the Kotha was just a but better, and the Milani had even carrier one (to take advantage of the improved Scramble Scramble) it would have been okay.

Triggy did you try buying up with other races? Just wondering how often folks tried buying up.

Ripple

 

[No. 1 Bear]

The main problem i see with Abbai is that they are too reliant on shields that doesn't actually work well. The shields act like extra damage points and then theres nothing left. The recharge rate is far too low for a race as advanced as the Abbai, i personally feel the recharge rate should be equal to half the shield strength. I also feel that the need for more inteceptors is also needed. Its needed as yet another line of defence. How they should be.

I also feel they should be undergunned. But have a large amount of protection. So it balances out.

 

[Triggy]

Generally with most races after buying up and splitting down, I ended up with a number of ships equal to 150% (almost always between 100% and 200%) of the number of FAPs each side brought to the battle. Abbai were always a race with better Skirmish and Patrol PL choices than higher PLs and unfortunately, whilst the low end ships came down a touch in ability, so did the higher PL ships (when they may even have needed to get slightly better), excepting the Juyaca and Brivoki.

 

[Davesaint]

Generally with most races after buying up and splitting down, I ended up with a number of ships equal to 150% (almost always between 100% and 200%) of the number of FAPs each side brought to the battle. Abbai were always a race with better Skirmish and Patrol PL choices than higher PLs and unfortunately, whilst the low end ships came down a touch in ability, so did the higher PL ships (when they may even have needed to get slightly better), excepting the Juyaca and Brivoki.

So, in a fleet of 5 raid, you would field about 8 ships? That doesn't seem to fit the idea that you are using the lower PL ships to their advantage per say.

I mean at 5 raid, you would have what:

Lakara
Bimith
2 Milani
4 Tiraca?

I don't think that is all that viable of a fleet against many other races.


Dave

 

[DontFearDaReaper]

I mean at 5 raid, you would have what:

Lakara
Bimith
2 Milani
4 Tiraca

I took this very fleet up against the Narn and got my head handed to me.

 

[Davesaint]

I mean at 5 raid, you would have what:

Lakara
Bimith
2 Milani
4 Tiraca

I took this very fleet up against the Narn and got my head handed to me.

I don't doubt it. With the tests I have been running against Ripple, the only way the Abbai win is through swarm tactics. Swap the Lakara for 2 additional Milani and 4 Tiraca, and you might have a chance against the narn. Maybe........


Dave

 

[DontFearDaReaper]

I don't doubt it. With the tests I have been running against Ripple, the only way the Abbai win is through swarm tactics. Swap the Lakara for 2 additional Milani and 4 Tiraca, and you might have a chance against the narn. Maybe........

I suppose but it would be nice if the Abbai raid level ship could compete with other races raid level ships. I'm thinking the Bimith is THE worst raid ship in the game by a significant margin.

Dave

 

[katadder]

I did a battle with the Abbai at 5pt war and beat the EA crusade, fleet was:

2 Jucaya
2x Lakara, Bimith, Milani, 2 Tiraca
4 Bimith

the Jucayas and Lakaras did really well however the bimiths were a bit of a waste of time, once they pass an enemy they never get back in the fight.
I dont know why the bimith got less AD and made lumbering, I was against this the whole way and I agree that shields dont make up for the interceptors lost.
seems EP, triggy and myself were against the abbai changes, so will need another playtester who was for them to explain them. I believe Greg was a big fan of the current version with shields etc iirc our various emails on the subject

 

[Triggy]

Well, I was in favour generally of the Shields but with slightly lower scores and higher recharge rates. The Bimith I made some original suggestions about its AD/Toughness (before playtesting it) and it lost its Turns/gained Lumbering too.

I think the biggest issue was that the Abbai weren't quite playtested enough as most of the focus was on the Milani/Tiraca (which aren't too bad at the moment) as they were mighty ships to use in a swarm and therefore were the biggest concern at the start.

 

[Ripple]

That actually has been one of my biggest complaints on the shields. The rules for how they handle damage multiplier weapons and the tiny recharge has made them virtually useless outside of a very small game.

My question is given the ships ranges why you would want to reduce the AD at all. The ships have to get there, katadder is correct that about getting back around. Even with the 2/45 turns you needed a Come About to expect to get a second shot, now you have to be damn clever in and use all stop and all stop and pivot to get your second shot, assuming your opponent is nice enough to come after you again. It was often a one or two shot ship before, now it's just silly.

Ripple

 

[Banichi]

I mean at 5 raid, you would have what:

Lakara
Bimith
2 Milani
4 Tiraca

I took this very fleet up against the Narn and got my head handed to me.

I don't doubt it. With the tests I have been running against Ripple, the only way the Abbai win is through swarm tactics. Swap the Lakara for 2 additional Milani and 4 Tiraca, and you might have a chance against the narn. Maybe........


Dave

This is a bit depressing, as I have just finished painting a fleet that nearly matches that fleet. Except I took a jammer frigate instead of one of the tiraca.

 

[Ripple]

Get a copy of DaBoss's Darkness Rising and use his drone carrier in place of the Jammer Frigate. Scout does nothing for as an Abbai player past the first turn, and since you have to have more scouts than your opponent its not worth to get in that bidding war with races that actually benefit. You can use it to lower stealth, but since you mostly have to be within eight anyway, not sure it's that big a deal.

Alternately, if your opponents will let you, sub the Shyarie model for a brisaria... it's actually helpful as it allows easier recognition between your tiracas and brisarias. Comm Disruptors are actually useful things, just not enough on their own.

Ripple

 

[Banichi]

Cheers Ripple, thats sound advice. I was wondering why I had got a shyarie, (apart from the fact I really liked the mini).

The first time I trot them out should be, um, interesting. The two main opponants I play against are ISA and Vree. I collected the minies back in 1e, as I had used counter fleets and had some sucesses with them, and one huge defeat at their hands. I fully agree with the comments people have posted about the bimmith, why it got such a downgrade is beyond me.

The main reason I collected the fleet I did is that I like the look of a balanced fleet, with a nice mix of big and small ships. I'm starting to wonder if the collecter and painter in me should have listened a bit more to the wargamer in me :lol: . Oh well, time will tell.

 

[Ripple]

I own three shyarie... it's good looking model. Sad what they chose to make it. I like the carrier version in Darkness Rising, course I also like the other variants folks have come out with for the Abbai. All of them actually fill roles.

Milani bugs me as a carrier because it ends up being your primary fighting ship as the first reasonable access to a beam with multiple dice and decent range. I only wish they had continued with the 3 inch increases as they went up the latter. Eighteen inches on the Lakara would really have help there...

Ripple