How do Minbari counter swarm fleets?

[Karhedron]

My fleet just got its robed butts several kicked by a Demos-heavy Centauri fleet and was wondering if any more experienced admirals could give some tactical pointers? It was a 7-point skirmish game with the following fleets.

Minbari
2 Tigaras
1 Ashinata
1 wing of Nials
1 wing of Flyers

Centauri
6 Demos
2 Sentri wings

I was limited slightly by the models I had painted (no Torothas yet thanks to Royal Mail going on strike :roll: ).

I advanced fairly cautiously trying to get within fusion cannon range but stay outside the magic 8". Basically I got fragged. 3 Demos made their stealth roles on the first turn which slightly above average but not much. Even though I was using Flyers as Interceptors, one Tigara got crippled for only doing a few points in return. The other Tigara and Ashinata scored some more damage but slightly below par rolling meant I failed to do any sigificant damage.

Turn 2 saw the crippled Tigara finished off and thre Ashinata destroyed for no loss of the Demos. Even with the Nials doing their best to mob them, I could do the damage fast enough to even crippled them.

My basic problem was that outnumbered 2:1, my opponent was making enough rolls to get through my stealth. The Demos seems to put out an awful lot of Precise of DD attacks and I could not put damage on them fast enough. I realise Minbari are stronger at higher PLs but really I should be able to put more of a showing in at Skirmish level.

Some of these skirmish level ships seems disproportionately tough. They are fairly sturdy and throw a large number of dice about. How should I counter it? Do I just need to fight fire with fire and bring some Torothas along? Is there another way to counter low level swams.

Any advice greatly appreciated.

 

[Captain Kremmen]

Demos are very tough ships, and I believe that in 2ed slow loading weapons such as the Demos can't miss a stealthed target. i.e. if they don't get lock on they survive to roll again next turn etc until they do get a lock on

I think Demos may be the ultimate stealth Killer. Perhaps ask your opponent to play them as Vorchans against Minbari, that would give you a fighting chance....

Cpt K

 

[Da Boss]

Hi I am not a Minbari player (god forbid )but couple of thoughts - realise limited by models but why two Ashinata's? Its a specialist ship - I would have subbed at least one for a couple of Trotha maybe or another raid level ships? Your ships have AAF so are reasonably safe aginst average fighters and if long range fighter ashinata is not going to help? Also raid level ship give you another fighter..........not sure if any help - a proper Minbari is likely to be along soon

 

[Karhedron]

Sorry, slight typo, I only had one Ashinata not 2. I quite like them as they are pretty tough for a Raid level ship and have 6 AD of TL, MB attacks with 18" range in every arc. Plus they have AAF 6 and the Escort trait. I always try to put one at the centre of all but my smallest fleets as it (usually) does a very good job of surviving and keeping other stuff alive too. Far from being specialised, it is almost a Nova with Stealth.

A couple of Torothas would have been good if I had any but I am not certain they would have saved this battle for me. Those Demos just threw too many dice around for any easy counter-measures. :?

Asking him to play them as Vorchans seems a bit of a cop-out. This was a friendly game but we are starting up a campaign and I guess I will have to take on all-comers.

 

[Lord David the Denied]

From the Centauri viewpoint, your opponent made one simple mistake: no scout. He did ok regardless, but that seems like luck rather than judgement. A single Corvan would have made some of those stealth checks easier, and provided a beam weapon as well.

You really needed to take some Torothas, at least four I'd say, and probaby a Teshlan or two for some long-ranged beams and fighters.

 

[Tzarevitch]

Are you sure it isn't just better than average luck on his side? Your force doesn't seem like it was that bad to me. Minbari do have problems with swarm fleets but 2:1 is hardly a swarm. That is standard Minbari odds. Other than bringing as many ships with Nials or fliers as you can, I am not sure what else you can do.

Unlike most Centauri he slightly outranges you so you have to close the range. You are almost as fast but he is more agile. Honestly, as was said before I would have used Teshlans. Not only do they have nials but they also bring real Neutron Lasers to help offset the range problem. Either attack obliquely to get the Neutron lasers in range (possibly the fusion cannons too) but keep away from his closer range weapons or launch fighters and keep the range open to buy time for the fighters to get in and help.

Don't use Nials for interceptors. Have them attack. Demos suck against good fighters that they can't easily outrun. He didn't have all that many fighters of his own so the ships will have to help them. If you force him divert some ships to kill the nials, you are ahead of the game. If he doesn't, show him why he should've done so.

Tzarevitch

 

[Frohike]

what about teshlans instead of tigaras?

bit more flexible with the neutron cannon plus they are a bit faster...

 

[LaranosTZ]

Also note, unless I am mistaken I am pretty sure they have removed the 4" max seperation for splitting beams, so try and cut some of those smaller ships into more manageable chunks.

 

[Burger]

Also note, unless I am mistaken I am pretty sure they have removed the 4" max seperation for splitting beams, so try and cut some of those smaller ships into more manageable chunks.

You are mistaken. In fact it has been clarified since Armageddon, all the targets need to be within 4" of each other.

 

[Arch Lector Petrovski]

Try not to give them the advantage that their numbers would normally generate. Use the terrain to your advantage and try and get them to come to you on your terms. That and you can't go far wrong with Minbari fighters as long as the enemy's anti-fighter capabilities aren't too impressive.

 

[H]

sounds like some lucky stealth rolling undid you, as he wasn't scouting and his fighters seemed to have limited impact. Thats the joys of Stealth :-(
don't panic, give it another go, but try to get those torothas involved, they have a good stealth score and improved weapons, as long as they stay at 9" or so, you have a decent chance of taking down the demos.

Admittedly the Demos is one of the tougher ships in terms of firepower (sickeningly so). Stick your fighters in support of your ships to intercept, rely on your minibeams and AAF to deal with sentri's, as soon as you get rid of enough sentri's, get Nials in the rear arc of Demos.
A good option IF and when you get Torothas, is to keep a couple in hyperspace, then they can jump into a non firing arc of the demos and maul them

try a few larger scale games, the Minbari are weaker at lower pririties, but you should see an improvement in some bigger games.

 

[Burger]

try to get those torothas involved, they have a good stealth score and improved weapons, as long as they stay at 9" or so, you have a decent chance of taking down the demos.

Torotha at 9" does damage like a wet rag!

 

[Triggy]

At the very least I'd take Teshlans instead of Tigaras - this gives you more range and also (probably more importantly) weapons that can't be intercepted (thus negating the real advantage of the Demos).

 

[Karhedron]

Thanks for all the input guys, plenty of food for thought there. I have always fielded Teshlans in the past and they have usually done well. I tried Tigaras thinking that the short-ranged punch might be more potent. However the opposite seems to be the case and I may revert to Teshlans in future for preference.

Looking back I guess my opponent may have been a bit lucky with the dice rolls but it was kinda hard to tell. He just rolled so many of them that some of it was bound to stick. :shock:

Torothas and Teshlans next time. Unfortunately I forgot to check if the scenario allowed ships to be kept in hyperspace. JP bombing a teshlan in right behind the Vorchans would certainly have helped break up the pack a bit. Note to self, always RTFM!

Also we were playing without terrain in this game as our stellar scenery isn't quite ready yet. Hopefully some gas clouds will aid my cause in future.

Thanks the ideas guys and keep 'em coming if you have any more inspiration.

 

[inq101]

Scenery is easy to improvise. Cotton wool for dust clouds, gravel for asteroids, half a foam ball for planets (or a CD works)

 

[Centauri_Admiral]

Sounds pretty much to me mate like you played to your enemies strengths a little.
Centauri, especially in 2e, are a heavy frontal hitting fleet with plenty of firepower in their forward arcs to rake across the local vicinity of any stealthed ships. By taking ships with a shorter range, forcing you to get closer to the centauri, and having less numbers you made it virtually impossible for yourself to do what you MUST do against centauri . . . outflank.

If you could have outflanked him, then all the slightly lucky stealth rolls under the sun, wouldn't have helped. Like some of the other guys pointed out, teshlans have longer ranged and heavier weapons, thats going to enable you to knock out one or two demos before he can close range, plus with their speed you might possibly manage to turn A flank.

Other than that, as you rightly said, a victim of taking what models were at hand. A few torothas should have definetely meant you secured the outflanking, perhaps also offering up your ashinta in the centre as some nice juicy bait. The fighters I'd have perhaps moved across to the opposite flank in attempt to draw out some fire, if he shoots and destroys a couple of flights, less firepower to throw at Torothas, if he ignores them then he'll soon learn that heavy fighters up the arse can come sharp . . . especially if they aren't using lube.

WHat I'd have done for what its worth.

 

[stryve]

As far as scenery goes, there's a wide selection to print out over at epicarmycard.com under 'Resources'.

 

[Court Jester]

I will stick my hand up and admit that I was the other player in this game...

:wink:

Indeed the Sentri's did nothing and so were a wasted point. I would love to have a Corvan in the fleet but due to the postal strike I held off ordering one (I have only been seriously collecting the Centauri for a couple of weeks). As it is I only have 8 Vorchan/Demos models...

After thinking about it I agree that the Tigara was maybe a poorer choice over the Teshlan. As it turned out I was able to sit my ships in that magic range corridor between 8" and 12" meaning the Tigara only had 4 dice to throw at me coupled with being able to keep most of my ships in just one of the Tigara/Ashinata's arcs lowered the number of dice considerably.

I don't think the scenario "A Call to Arms" allows Hyperspace reserves but I could be mistaken. I had to endure 3 Jump point bombs from Blue Stars on Monday night whic although not as bad as I feared was still distressing. I saw then the need to have the Corvan in my fleet.

I also think I was quite lucky. On turn 1 I failed my first Stealth roll (5+) and then passed the second (5+) and passed the third (4+) and then failed the next two and past the final roll. The fire power from 18 dice of missles and 20 dice of ion cannons were able to destroy the Tigara on turn 1 and it was again 3 ships worth of fire power to take out the Ashinata. I do remember rolling to hit with the ion cannons on turn 2 and scoring 16 hits out of 20 attacks (including the TL re-roll) and what seemed like an abnormal number of critical hits.

Anyhow... sleep now.

 

[LaranosTZ]

Going back to the beam thing, can someone quote the appropriate rule please? After all, rulings for armageddon don't necessarily apply to 2nd ed. I'd like to see it in the rulebook.

 

[Burger]

Going back to the beam thing, can someone quote the appropriate rule please? After all, rulings for armageddon don't necessarily apply to 2nd ed. I'd like to see it in the rulebook.

Look under "Beam" special trait, final sentence.