How Can We Attract New Players to MRQ2 and other D100 Games?

[PhilHibbs]

Lankhmar Unleashed was a product of poor decision making, releasing a game without actually play-testing the rules...it just doesn't make sense to me.

When I tried to persuade the proprietor of one of my FLGSes† that RQ2 was better than the older, more problematic Mongoose releases, he brought out a copy of Lankhmar Unleashed and said "Look at this, how can I recommend this to a customer?", so I agree, whoever pushed the "print" button for LU may well have badly injured RQ2. Which is unfair, because the quality has been better since then. But, if it were not for the Glorantha licence, I would not be buying anything from Mongoose, and I won't consider recommending or buying any other Mongoose products unless the RQ product line improves in quality. The actual content is solid gold, but the shoddy quality control is killing it off.

Oh, and I got a "told you so" email when I told the FLGS about the mistakes in Cults of Glorantha (missing Lhankor Mhy spells, wrong Abiding Book grimoire, missing spell descriptions, etc.).

† FLGS = Friendly Local Game Store

 

[TrippyHippy]

Wow! From a thread that started off asking how to promote the game, we now have turned full circle to the point that fans are making ultimatums!

Whilst I don't doubt anyone's judgement call here, it could be useful to know what was specifically wrong with Lankhmar Unleashed - nobody seems to have explained this.

Moreover, I do think there is a tendency to conflate things together - editing issues and the like are common with all game books. Do you really think that Chaosium releases games without mistakes in them too? I assure you they do, as did The Laundry from Cubicle 7 recently (numerous pXXs - and surely if you've made such a big thing of swapping APP back to CHA, then you can remember to include it on the character sheet!). Wizards and White Wolf games have typos and misprints in them - I've got academic text and reference books that have them! - it's just part of the publishing industry it seems.

I do note that Mongoose had a torrid time with their original RQ game, along with some dreadfully poor quality books at and around the same time. But that was years ago now. It strikes me that reputation has led Mongoose to being singled out and overscritinised compared to other companies currently. The actual physical quality of the RQII book is pretty much the best I've seen of any game product for a while - I know it will last at least! Other game books, like Glorantha and Judge Dredd especially are pretty handsome books too. Possibly other books aren't as well polished, although I tend to only get pdf supplements these days anyway.

In any case, if we want to see RuneQuest II be successful, I do think criticisms need to be constructive and positive in outlook at least.

 

[PhilHibbs]

Wow! From a thread that started off asking how to promote the game, we now have turned full circle to the point that fans are making ultimatums!

Attracting new players and product quality are inextricably linked. Mongoose need to know what their reputation is, and do something about it - which they clearly already are, and I did say some nice things about the recent Gloranthan books' content!

 

[hanszurcher]

...editing issues and the like are common with all game books. Do you really think that Chaosium releases games without mistakes in them too? I assure you they do, as did The Laundry from Cubicle 7 recently (numerous pXXs - and surely if you've made such a big thing of swapping APP back to CHA, then you can remember to include it on the character sheet!)

A good point to be made here.

The Laundry RPG was released in PDF form a week before Cubicle 7 sent the final files to the printers. In this way Cubical 7 has benefited from the many critical eyes of it's pre-order customers and the above mentioned editing problems won't be showing up in the print run.

Something the folks at Mongoose my wish to consider.

 

[TrippyHippy]

Hey, I'm not having a pop at you - you can say what you think! But what I am trying to say is that part and parcel of wanting the game to do well is staying positive.

If prospective fans were to check up on threads and find half the current fans complaining, then that's as likely to destroy reputations as anything Mongoose happen to print.

What I think is lacking is public awareness of what Mongoose are producing right now, as opposed to a few years ago. As I said before, RQII is a high quality product - but it's hardly being reviewed much by prominant people (like the aforementioned Game Geeks, for example). Judge Dredd also seemed to go by without a flutter too. These games need exposure to increase popularity, as well as some positive Word of Mouth.

 

[aethelwulf22]

In any case, if we want to see RuneQuest II be successful, I do think criticisms need to be constructive and positive in outlook at least.

I don't think there is any way to be constructive with criticism about poor editing other than to point it out and say I would rather Mongoose took a bit more time and care with it. As hanszurcher says...why rush to release the book? Why not release the pdf before sending the files to the printers so all the nitpickers and armchair proofreaders like me can point out all the mistakes?

That said I am excited about the new RQ and Glorantha stuff...the books look great (the layout and quality of the books isn't in question). Indeed, I've just splashed out on the RQII core rulebook, Glorantha core book and Deus Vult (as well as Clockwork & Chivalry). But I'm wary...I only did so after reading some reviews and checking the forums to see what the editing was like. Unfortunately, the mistakes in Cults of Glorantha just reinforces my wariness.

 

[Mikko Leho]

Deus Vult's character sheet misspells Christian and it only gets worse from there... So even if the editing has gotten better it is still far from acceptable.

 

[Loz]

Unfortunately, the mistakes in Cults of Glorantha just reinforces my wariness.

The errors are regrettable but were probably inevitable. They're also localised and not especially extensive. Fixes are easy, in most cases. It doesn't excuse them, but they are relatively easy to deal with. An eratta will be produced. However... a book of the size and scope of 'Cults' is, by its nature, going to be prone to errors. FWIW, the book was submitted to three separate external people, all with exceedingly good error-trapping skills, before it even went to PDF layout for further proofing. Some errors were caught and rectified, others were missed even by three sets of Glorantha-wise, proof-reading eyes. There's a hell of a lot of cross-referencing, of spells, allied cults, and various rules nuances, plus attempting to ensure that this version of Cults remains as compatible as possible with the previous editions for MRQI and is consistent with older cults material (and some of that stuff contains errors too). I think CoG is about the most complex book I've written, and it took a long time to prepare, write-up, do the initial check, and then get additional people involved in the post-writing, pre-layout phase.

And stuff still got missed. Its galling, I know: galling for me and galling for you. But - and here's the clincher - books have to be produced to a schedule. You can make that schedule as long as you want. You can go over the manuscript a dozen times, and material, especially in a complex work, will always get missed or overlooked. The RQII core rules, for instance, got combed by myself, Pete, and at least three very good playtesters and proof readers about three times before it was sent in for layout and in-house editing: we still missed things! Its a very complex process. It may seem straightforward from an external POV - elementary, even, but its never as simple as you think, no matter how long you have to do it.

Anyhow, I am doing the CoG errata. As to Lhankmar and Necromantic Arts, neither were written by me and I've been involved with my own projects to the point where I haven't had time to look at either of them with a view to corrections. I regret that; but I must prioritise, and I know that Matt is also looking at how best to tackle LU and NA.

 

[Exubae]

With the complexity of the game you can see why errors slip in, but to give them their due quality has improved with the RQ2 line (Lankhmar and Necro Arts as an exception... they look and felt like rush jobs).
I've stopped buying the paper versions because of the poor proof reading, after being stung with lankhmar and by RQ1 books far too often. Now I've gone down the pdf root.

 

[PhilHibbs]

With the complexity of the game you can see why errors slip in, but to give them their due quality has improved with the RQ2 line (Lankhmar and Necro Arts as an exception... they look and felt like rush jobs).
I've stopped buying the paper versions because of the poor proof reading, after being stung with lankhmar and by RQ1 books far too often. Now I've gone down the pdf root.

I've bought a full set of both. Even the ones that a friend sent me dodgy PDF downloads of from some torrent or free hosting place, I bought the PDF legitimately from Drivethru. I want to support Mongoose, because I want to see high-quality Gloranthan material published. I know they can do it - the latest three Gloranthan glossy-cover books are all brilliant.

*Update* Oh, and on the subject of DriveThru PDFs, I just posted a rating and review of Cults, and noticed that I was the first person to do so! Anyone else bought it from them and care to write a few words?

 

[aethelwulf22]

Its a very complex process. It may seem straightforward from an external POV - elementary, even, but its never as simple as you think, no matter how long you have to do it.

As an occasional proofreader for WFRP3e I know it's a long, slow and complex process but the quality of the end product really depends on how much time, care and money is spent on the editing...how many passes the book is given and by how many proofreaders (fresh pairs of eyes!) and how good those proofreaders are. Of course, the odd thing will always slip through but the quality of the editing can always be improved if the care and time is taken, imho.

I also think that releasing a pdf in advance of sending the book to the printers is a great way to get the fans to work for you and greatly reduce the amount of errors. Everybody's happy as those who buy the pdf get the revised pdf later on for free and those who want the book in print, though they may have to wait a couple of months...get a better quality book. It's also free for Mongoose.

 

[PhilHibbs]

I also think that by releasing a pdf in advance of sending the book to the printers is a great way to get the fans to work for you and greatly reduce the amount of errors. Everybody's happy as those who buy the pdf get the revised pdf later on for free and those who want the book in print, though they may have to wait a couple of months...get a better quality book. It's also free for Mongoose.

Interesting idea - is there a perception that an early PDF release might eat into physical sales, if people torrent it instead of buying the book? I think that's unlikely to be significant, anyone who is willing to shell out bucks for the book is unlikely to be happy with a purely electronic copy, and the people that pirate it would probably not have bought it anyway. The timescale for getting the PDF onto Drivethru, onto the harddrives of fans, feedback on the forum, and then corrections, layout adjustment, printing, and distribution is probably going to add a couple of months to the schedule though. Since dead tree copies are (probably, I guess) the bulk of the revenue stream, Mongoose would be foregoing a lot of dollar-days this way so it is decidedly not a free option.

 

[aethelwulf22]

I'm not sure about the short-term business implications but certainly in the long-term a better quality product can only help sales.

A few companies have gone down this route recently...in fact, Cubicle 7 (who are close to Mongoose, I believe) have done this with Victoriana, Starblazer Adventures and Legends of Anglerre. Paizo with their Pathfinder Open Playtest did something similar and now Green Ronin is following in their footsteps with their Dragon Age Open Playtest.

 

[andyl]

I'm not sure about the short-term business implications but certainly in the long-term a better quality product can only help sales.

A few companies have gone down this route recently...in fact, Cubicle 7 (who are close to Mongoose, I believe) have done this with Victoriana, Starblazer Adventures and Legends of Anglerre. Paizo with their Pathfinder Open Playtest did something similar and now Green Ronin is following in their footsteps with their Dragon Age Open Playtest.

There are some spelling / grammar issues with Starblazer Adventures. I don't think that there are bits that have gone missing in the editing/page layout process.

 

[Exubae]

Perhaps Mongoose should look to expand their proof reading pool.
I'm sure they could drum up 'free' assistance from folk in the forums.

 

[Chronos]

I could help proofread. I spent a couple of years copy editing a newspaper. I'm sure there are others like me with similar skills (and perhaps more exposure to RQ/Glorantha than I've got) who also wouldn't mind chipping in - especially if it means a more polished product.

Even if the prereleased PDF idea mentioned before won't fly, sourcing 10 or so sharp eyes from the community certainly would help.

 

[Blackyinkin]

Hi,

The problem is that proofing anything Gloranthan is really, really tricky, you really have to know your stuff to spot mistakes in Gloranthan material. Spellings are notorious, Lhankor Mhy, or is that Lankhor Mhy or Lhankhor Mhy as it has been written in Gloranthan publications in the past is a classic example. Robin played fast and loose with his Pamalt ideas in the first series of books, which required a lot of retro fitting to match the Missing Lands and other published material, but only a hard core Gloranthaphile with a love of the Southern Continent would have noticed.

I do wonder if the pre-release PDF idea is a good one.

On a final note, Phil, whoever your friend is who offers you copies of dodgy torrented versions of books is, give him a swift sharp kick in the broo tackle from me will you. I watch the torrent groups closely and jump on Gloranthan torrenters, ever since my Freeforms and Unspoken Word stuff started to pop up there. We made bugger all as it was, and made even less thanks to Torrenters. If you want to send his details to Matt, Greg or Jeff, I am sure they would be happy to take legal action :-D

Simon

 

[Exubae]

Simon, there seems to be a hell of a lot of aging Gloranthaphiles kicking around the forums. Though whether they've the time is another matter.

A pdf pre-release might be worth producing, keep the layout simple and minimal illustrations, mostly text. It would hopefully push towards the purchase of highly polished hard copy.

 

[TrippyHippy]

I would actually prefer a pre-release pdf version - including playtest versions, particularly if they get updated.

If it's viable as a business move, I don't know - I''m not in a position to be qualified to make that judgement. On the other hand, I have bought hardcopy after picking up PDFs before, so it could work.

Coming back to this point:

Attracting new players and product quality are inextricably linked.

I think the ratio between sales and editing quality is overstated. The energy of the game concepts and ideas are really the 'quality' that fans pick up on. If you look at all the 1st edition WoD books, which were one of the fast selling phenomenas in RPG history, they are all released in playtest form essentially and are riddled with errors (at least two games are well nigh unplayable).

 

[Jujitsudave]

I agree with the TrippyHippy. They could misspell every word in the book but if it's a great game and great concept, I wouldn't care.