how are the Drakh?

[katadder]

the drakh are still a very good force and balanced. and another race doesnt have access to interceptor fighters, the abbai, who are supposed to be the most defensive race in the game.

as for starting with ships on the board, its almost the init sink swarm you complain about so much now. hell with 5pts raid you could get 2 strike cruisers and a couple of patrol cruiser and still end up with 6 ships, 2 of them battle level vessels and 4 skirmish, no other race can do that without resorting to patrol vessels. even taking into account the 2fers someone could get 2 battle and 8 twofers which is the equivalent in ships (although light raiders will wreck most twofers). or you could have 4 drakh scouts, 2 strike cruisers carrying 2 other raiders.

perhaps you should try it instead of complaining the drakh havent lost anything major (lost +1 versus stealth which was too much), in fact they have gained and you did well enough in the vassal tourney with them.

 

[CZuschlag]

I have. Vorchan and/or Demos dominated them before; with the new Close Blast Doors change, they'll eat them alive.

Perhaps you should listen to us instead of just dismissing our opinions out of hand. Apparently they were valid enough to consider us reasonable 2nd tier playtesters --- now that we disagree, they aren't?

They suck.

The Abbai have access to interceptors fighters --- they take the excellent Brokados. They're league .... Obviously! The fleet that has trouble is the Centauri, who have to go to Rutarians to get the job done; an inefficient job at best.

 

[katadder]

which shows how much notice you took as a 2nd tier tester. CBD obviously ignored. sentris obviously ignored. so that seems good enough reason to dismiss your opinions as you dont even read the rules right that you are supposed to be looking at

 

[CZuschlag]

You'll see quoted above the exact text on Close Blast Doors --- there is no such weapon restriction. Something was either not included, or obviously changed, between when we got copy and was printed.

Sentris weren't ignored --- it made the Guardian Array reasonable as it made the Maximus act in a similar role as the fighter escort.

Edit: Didn't notice. The Sentri lost Weak? Yikes.

The Chicago team will get the reference to this:
"I can read."

 

[Da Boss]

The Abbai have access to interceptors fighters --- they take the excellent Brokados. They're league .... Obviously! The fleet that has trouble is the Centauri, who have to go to Rutarians to get the job done; an inefficient job at best.

Without pouring fire on oily water the Centauri can use also Sentris as Interceptors - only Raziks are unable - also the Balvarian means you can get them back through the Fleet Carrier rule.

 

[Da Boss]

which shows how much notice you took as a 2nd tier tester. CBD obviously ignored. sentris obviously ignored. so that seems good enough reason to dismiss your opinions as you dont even read the rules right that you are supposed to be looking at

In defense: It could be that the rules they saw were slightly different to the rules you saw - I understand CBD had to be put back as it was before.

 

[katadder]

which is what i was pointing out (sentris).
although i see what you mean about the CBD in the pdf, dunno why that was left out of that as it had changed months before so apologies on that.

however this still doesnt make the drakh a useless race, far from it. they have the minbari firepower but backed up by better damage/thresholds. only the main defense is differant. GEG versus stealth and depending on your opponents luck or play style stealth can be made almost negligable.
GEG will work against anything but crits.

 

[CZuschlag]

Katadder,

We came up with 9 pages, single spaced, of issues, balance concerns, comments, corrections, and typos. And that was through page 41 of the rulebook; Davesaint had to take over typing for me at that point because it was infringing on my other work. I sort of thought we did a serious job of it. I can't imagine how big the final list became.

We probably missed some things. That I admit. But I also know this:

A person who never admits the possibility that they have made a mistake is either a liar or a megalomaniac.

Or, in the case of certain world leaders, both.

 

[katadder]

I know how much you came up with. and some of it had relevance (the AS&P spinning tops) but doesnt mean that the drakh are broken which is what this was all over.
the drakh are as good or bad as they ever were. some more variants, some ships improved but nothign major lost.

 

[MongooseMatt]

You'll see quoted above the exact text on Close Blast Doors

Except it is wrong.

Seriously mate (and this goes for everyone) _try_ the game before you decide your fleet has been derailed. This was playtested for over a year by people I would fairly call experts in the game, and it was written by someone who has made it his job (that would be me).

_Try_ the game. _Play_ the game. You will find many, if not all, of your concerns are groundless. And, please, please, please make sure you are reading the actual rulebook, not playtest notes. . .

 

[MongooseMatt]

We came up with 9 pages, single spaced, of issues, balance concerns, comments, corrections, and typos. And that was through page 41 of the rulebook; Davesaint had to take over typing for me at that point because it was infringing on my other work. I sort of thought we did a serious job of it. I can't imagine how big the final list became.

And we went through those sheets with a fine toothcomb - the work the second tier playtesters (perhaps better termed playcheckers) did was invaluable, particularly in terms of typoes and clarifications. However, we knew from the start that many balance issues that would be raised would be kneejerk reactions - that did not stop us considering each and every one, but many balance points were things that had been raised _months_ ago by the core playtest team and resolved.

I do not claim the game is complete, without flaw. I do not claim it is bulletproof, nor that there will never be a third edition in years to come. I _can_ say it is solid and that, if you play games with the actual rulebooks in hand, as opposed to PDFs that had not been finalised, I think you will agree.

 

[Right Hand of God]

so can some one who has the actual rule book clarify what the rules for CBD are? There are a number of ships out there with only one weapon, will they be able to shoot if they perform this special action?

 

[katadder]

no. if you CBD you can only fire one weapon. however if you only have one weapon you cannot fire at all.

 

[Right Hand of God]

well I can see why that sucks

 

[katadder]

well being able to fire a one weapon ship would basically give it a permanent 5+ save. things like light raiders getting 4+ save, GEG, 5+ save. or bluestars getting 3+ save, AA, 5+ save over powered.

 

[Right Hand of God]

yep but it doesn't really stop ships with more than one weapon system and dodge from doig the same thing though does it, at least not for a coule of turns until secondaries are in range. A WS at 18 inches is still going to fire its beam weapon, get it's dodge and be able to close blast doors with the only penalty being it an't fire a weapon that is out of range anyway

 

[MongooseMatt]

yep but it doesn't really stop ships with more than one weapon system and dodge from doig the same thing though does it, at least not for a coule of turns until secondaries are in range. A WS at 18 inches is still going to fire its beam weapon, get it's dodge and be able to close blast doors with the only penalty being it an't fire a weapon that is out of range anyway

The difference being that ships with Dodge pay for Dodge. . .

 

[Right Hand of God]

ok that's fair enough with dodge but it still seems to punish ships with just one weapon system regardless of race. My point about the Whiste Star was really an example of the weapon ranges, as I haven't seen any of the 2ed stuff and I know the White Star has a laser at medium and a shorter range secondary.

CBD allowing a ship to fire one weapon system only is fine but as I said before it seems particuularly harsh to stop ships with only one weapon firing at all when ships with more than one weapon system are unikely to have more than one weapon in range for the first couple of turns anyway.

Having played a game with Drakh recently where I had 16 light raiders and 16 heavy raiders sat for a couple of turns on CBD I can easily see why you would not want this to to be a legitimate move, but not every ship with one weapon system will have dodge or GEG will it?

My concern, if that is the right word, is that this unduely punishes ships with one weapon over other ships. It is not a concern about the Drakh in particular. I agree, Matt, with your comment that we, as players, should wait until we actually play the new addition before we go into mass panic and start spouting unfounded claims of doom and despair on the forums. But the change on CBD is not restricted to one race and its result can be seen without the need to play it.

 

[Greg Smith]

Da Boss used to play his 1e Maximus with CDB virtually every turn.

With CDB now stopping crew loss as well, using CDB is a way to improve a ship's survivability by 1/3. There has to be some penalty for it.

There are a very large number of ships with a single long-ranged weapon that would benefit from closing blast door while they are closing. It was a pretty useful tactic in 1e, it shouldn't change in 2e.

 

[Right Hand of God]

I've been thinking about this over night, shows had sad I am, actually my boy was up all night teething and it gave me something to think about other than the high pitched whine that makes my erars bleed!

I think it is exactly because it becomes such a safe bet for so many ships, a no brainer of a move to increase survvabiity by 1/3 that doing this makes sense. I would just like to see it tweaked so that main weapons are affected leaving secondaries unaffected rather than ships still being able to inch accross the board on CBD firing main guns, like a 1st ed Primus.