Houserules; Feedback please

[E-Mines Hurt]

At the time, this house rule makes no presumption on what a ship will do. You may start with a fleet with no firing option and a scout, the scout must move first. Then the enemy move a ship forward, then you must move one of the ships that can now fire.

big question - do you have to move the ship into range - or can you declare the ship and either not move it or move it behind terrain rather than into danger?

no, you do not have to move into range, you just have to move it. The rule does not force you do anything other than to tell you which ship you must activate, if your omega could boresight the haven patrol boat that just moved forward it doesn't have to boresight it, the omega merely has to take it's turn.

You can fly that bluestar behind that dust cloud if you want.

 

[E-Mines Hurt]

Shadows: start by moving a Scout into the limits of range of the biggest enemy ship. This ship is now obliged to move because it can theoretically shoot at a target with stealth 5+ at long range. Repeat until you run out of Scouts. Then you move your big ships into place to attack the enemy big ships without being shot at.

I refer you to your own paragraph below

Energy mines can always shoot. G'Kariths, Sataakas and Shuukas, as well as any Olympus or Missile Chronos loaded with a fusion bomb, can act as init sinks without having to expose themselves to fire.

I refer you to your own paragraph above

Now this does mean that behaviour in the approach phase changes. This is why I wanted the feedback, I don't want to change the game completely just get rid of a few gamey exploits.

Ships being forced to move opens up for an ability to skip. Options include a Special Action "Wait and See" allowing a ship to move down one group in priority (lets call that a skip). Automatic or CQ 10, +1 to the CQ check for ships with boresight, we'll see from experience. Allow boresight ships one skip per game? Allow fleets one skip per command point? Allow ships of higher priority that the battle one skip?

Rules lawyers are going to have fun with group 3, "Ships that can perform actions that affect the battle". Any ship can perform an action which will affect the battle - if it moves, the other players is forced to move another ship, thus affecting the battle. Or it can theoretically go at full speed into the nearest asteroid belt and explode, theoretically catch another ship in the blast and theoretically get a 666 critical - just because it can doesn't mean it must try to do this.

The rule does not demand that this be tried, only that if this is possible that ship will be one of the ships that can be activated this impulse. The point of the rule is to prevent the use of ships which cannot do anything as sinks. Group 3 could be rephrased as "Ships that can take Special Actions or use ship Traits or Special Abilities that can affect other ships." e.g. Closing Blast Doors

And finally, if the players in your group are "rules lawyers, nit pickers, power gamers, bad losers and bad winners", and you try to introduce new rules which might get in their way, they'll just veto the rules anyway and insist on playing official rules.

Yes, they are, and they play the game for fun. They hate rules which permit a battle to be won before setup. Seeing the opponent reveal his fleet and thinking "I'm fucked, I can't win" is the most annoying thing about it.

If you are facing a high sink fleet and you picked hyperions you are fucked, if you picked novas the sink fleet is fucked. The sink rule is connected to the fleet availability rule in the sense that if I am going to force you to take boresight ships I'm not going to let your opponent fly 10 patrol boats behind a nebula on the far side of the table and never see your main guns except when you succeed with a Track That Target.

 

[katadder]

concerning scenarios I wrote up some alternate effects on campaigns for winning certain scenarios because I dont think you should get a system for winning a blockade run. I will see if I still have them on my system when I am home tonight.

 

[Da Boss]

At the time, this house rule makes no presumption on what a ship will do. You may start with a fleet with no firing option and a scout, the scout must move first. Then the enemy move a ship forward, then you must move one of the ships that can now fire.

big question - do you have to move the ship into range - or can you declare the ship and either not move it or move it behind terrain rather than into danger?

no, you do not have to move into range, you just have to move it. The rule does not force you do anything other than to tell you which ship you must activate, if your omega could boresight the haven patrol boat that just moved forward it doesn't have to boresight it, the omega merely has to take it's turn. You can fly that bluestar behind that dust cloud if you want.

Ok now I am confused - isn't the Blue Star hiding exactly the issue you are trying to avoid?

If the issue is with the "I can't win this game from the beginning" then it may be tine to look at alternative ways of choosing the forces as you suggest in the first part for your suggestion. Implement ISD restrictions, as Adrian said use the must always have one ship of PL or higher in a battle.

My thought would be try it with that first and see if anything is better before looking at changing in sinking.

Another option is look at the issue of boresight itself - consider removing it entirely. Take the BS ships make them F arc and reduce the range and/or AD, or make it a fixed strip (say the width of a ruler) that any ship that ends up within this strip can be fired on...........

 

[AdrianH]

I refer you to your own paragraph below

I refer you to your own paragraph above

The two paragraphs do not necessarily cancel each other out. They mean that Earth, Gaim and Narn can still use init sinks, and Shadows can force others to move their best ships first. Only if everyone limits themselves to those races do the paragraphs cancel.

Now this does mean that behaviour in the approach phase changes. This is why I wanted the feedback, I don't want to change the game completely just get rid of a few gamey exploits.

Ships being forced to move opens up for an ability to skip. Options include a Special Action "Wait and See" allowing a ship to move down one group in priority (lets call that a skip). Automatic or CQ 10, +1 to the CQ check for ships with boresight, we'll see from experience. Allow boresight ships one skip per game? Allow fleets one skip per command point? Allow ships of higher priority that the battle one skip?

Watch as the Dilgar, whose fleet special ability is to use the Pentacon to skip, object as everyone else suddenly gets the ability.

Rules lawyers are going to have fun with group 3, "Ships that can perform actions that affect the battle". Any ship can perform an action which will affect the battle - if it moves, the other players is forced to move another ship, thus affecting the battle. Or it can theoretically go at full speed into the nearest asteroid belt and explode, theoretically catch another ship in the blast and theoretically get a 666 critical - just because it can doesn't mean it must try to do this.

The rule does not demand that this be tried, only that if this is possible that ship will be one of the ships that can be activated this impulse. The point of the rule is to prevent the use of ships which cannot do anything as sinks. Group 3 could be rephrased as "Ships that can take Special Actions or use ship Traits or Special Abilities that can affect other ships." e.g. Closing Blast Doors

And that effectively wipes out group 4 because any ship can declare a special action (unless prevented by a crit, which it won't have received if it's spent the whole battle acting as an init sink behind a dust cloud).

If you are facing a high sink fleet and you picked hyperions you are fucked, if you picked novas the sink fleet is fucked. The sink rule is connected to the fleet availability rule in the sense that if I am going to force you to take boresight ships I'm not going to let your opponent fly 10 patrol boats behind a nebula on the far side of the table and never see your main guns except when you succeed with a Track That Target.

No, he'll just fly 5 Skirmish ships with energy mines behind the same nebula. And I'm not sure how the availability rule allows you to force anyone to take boresight ships - for example, you can't force me to take Hyperions because Novas and Olympuses are also "standard", having appeared on screen. So I could take a bunch of Novas plus Olympus init sinks.

 

[AdrianH]

Just to answer something mentioned earlier...

In a skirmish level convoy battle EA defending against Narn, the Narn didn't bring any EMines and the EA brought only fighters.

Why did the Narn not have any EMines? The EA's characteristics are interceptors which reduce the effect of most weapons, and some of the best fighters in the game. EMines are the weapon of choice against EA.

In a blockade scenario ISA brought only bluestarts and ran across the entire table before anybody could react.

Common sense - if you're running a blockade, use the fastest ship available. Besides, Blockade is so skewed in favour of anyone with a ship with speed at least 12 that the kindest thing to do might be to put down a Blue Star, get it over with as quickly as possible, and move onto the next game.

In an raid level ACTA scenario the Narn brought only EMine ships against the ISA.

Again, common sense given that one of the ISA's strengths is Dodge. On the other hand, which EMine ships were they? Dag'Kars are fine at long range and sitting targets at close range; G'Karith EMines are just basic (no AP, DD or TD); and everything else below War level is one-shot.

And, the ISA has the option of either following the Ship availability rules or using the Army of Light.

No it doesn't. ISA is one fleet, Army of Light is another. The player must decide which fleet he's using and follow the rules accordingly. What he can do, at least for a one-off game rather than a campaign, is decide which ships to play and use whichever fleet they'll fit. I have a case containing all my Army of Light but in one-off games I can and will sometimes play EA, Vree, League or ISA (there are also a few ships which are illegal for Army of Light but which, along with my White Stars, can form a modest ISA fleet).

 

[E-Mines Hurt]

No it doesn't. ISA is one fleet, Army of Light is another. The player must decide which fleet he's using and follow the rules accordingly. What he can do, at least for a one-off game rather than a campaign, is decide which ships to play and use whichever fleet they'll fit. I have a case containing all my Army of Light but in one-off games I can and will sometimes play EA, Vree, League or ISA (there are also a few ships which are illegal for Army of Light but which, along with my White Stars, can form a modest ISA fleet).

Not regular rules, but rather as an alternative to showing up with half white stars in a war level battle. It's just for the house rule.



Regarding the skip, the suggestion was to allow some ships to drop categories from the highest priority to move to a lower one. You skip the ship, not the move.

 

[l33tpenguin]

Now this does mean that behaviour in the approach phase changes. This is why I wanted the feedback, I don't want to change the game completely just get rid of a few gamey exploits.

...

Yes, they are, and they play the game for fun. They hate rules which permit a battle to be won before setup. Seeing the opponent reveal his fleet and thinking "I'm fucked, I can't win" is the most annoying thing about it.

If you are facing a high sink fleet and you picked hyperions you are fucked, if you picked novas the sink fleet is fucked. The sink rule is connected to the fleet availability rule in the sense that if I am going to force you to take boresight ships I'm not going to let your opponent fly 10 patrol boats behind a nebula on the far side of the table and never see your main guns except when you succeed with a Track That Target.

You are really adding something that changes a lot of the mechanics of the move phase and seems, based on the discussion here, very unwieldy.

If you are looking for a fix to init sinks, you might want to go with something a little easier and streamlined, such as each player moving a minimum of 1 FAP worth of ships at a time. Its a very fair and easy to impliment. There is little debate over the wording or structure. The only thing that will affect it is how you determine the battle. A 1 War game breaks the rule as it leaves each player with only 1 move. A 90 patrol game has the oppisite effect. I recommend putting the idea forward to your game group and trying it out. In a rather standard 5 battle game, it really evens the playing field.

A possible fix to help larger ships would be 'Any ship worth more than 1 FAP allows the player to skip move a number of turns equal to the FAP value of the ship' This also fixes the 90 patrol game problem

 

[AdrianH]

No it doesn't. ISA is one fleet, Army of Light is another. The player must decide which fleet he's using and follow the rules accordingly. What he can do, at least for a one-off game rather than a campaign, is decide which ships to play and use whichever fleet they'll fit.

Not regular rules, but rather as an alternative to showing up with half white stars in a war level battle. It's just for the house rule.

I'm still not sure what this is supposed to achieve. If the ISA player can go AoL but is not required to do so, then he won't do so unless it's to his advantage. If he wants to field half a fleet of White Stars then he can still do so; in fact, he can do so using AoL as well. If he does not want to field half a fleet of White Stars then the ISA always has the rule to field 1 FAP's worth of ships from an allied fleet. If he does not want to play lots of White Stars then he ought to consider using AoL for the whole campaign.

As for init sinks, I still think the easiest fix is to require at least one ship to be at least the same priority level as the scenario, and preferably keep it down to 2 or 3 FAP's. Maybe have a house rule that if a randomly generated scenario has more FAP's then divide by 2, round up and go up a priority level. So a 5 point Skirmish game becomes a 3 point Raid game and at least one ship must be Raid level or higher. You can still have init sinks, which is part of ACTA, but at least there won't be as many of them.

Note that Army of Light pretty well ignores your fleet availability rules. With the possible exception of the Abbai, Gaim and pak'ma'ra contingents, every single ship of the AoL is in your "standard" category, since they all appeared on screen. (Which, incidentally, is why I like playing AoL - I only buy models of ships which appeared on screen. )

 

[E-Mines Hurt]

So the consensus is

Ship Availability - interesting Idea, needs a bit of tweaking to get all the fleets balanced.

Movement Priority - seems like a silly Idea, come back once you have tested it and demonstrated that it isn't too complicated; doesn't change the game too much while it actually solves the sink problem.

 

[Da Boss]

So the consensus is

Ship Availability - interesting Idea, needs a bit of tweaking to get all the fleets balanced.

Movement Priority - seems like a silly Idea, come back once you have tested it and demonstrated that it isn't too complicated; doesn't change the game too much while it actually solves the sink problem.

yep

The big one for me is that if you are not making people fly towards the enemy guns - it will not actually change things as small ships will still hide behind dust clouds etc

 

[Banichi]

Movement Priority - seems like a silly Idea, come back once you have tested it and demonstrated that it isn't too complicated; doesn't change the game too much while it actually solves the sink problem.

If you really want to solve the whole boresight/init sink problem try playing move and fire. We started using it a while back, it's awesome. When you use move and fire with a boresight fleet you can actually dedicate all your stratagy towards trying to beat the enemy. Rather than trying to beat the stupid initiative system.

All the fixes, house rules, special action, etc that try and solve the init sink issue are just bandages on a rotten leg. So we got rid of the leg altogether. And truthfully, the game is that much better for it.

 

[E-Mines Hurt]

Movement Priority - seems like a silly Idea, come back once you have tested it and demonstrated that it isn't too complicated; doesn't change the game too much while it actually solves the sink problem.

If you really want to solve the whole boresight/init sink problem try playing move and fire. We started using it a while back, it's awesome. When you use move and fire with a boresight fleet you can actually dedicate all your stratagy towards trying to beat the enemy. Rather than trying to beat the stupid initiative system.

All the fixes, house rules, special action, etc that try and solve the init sink issue are just bandages on a rotten leg. So we got rid of the leg altogether. And truthfully, the game is that much better for it.

Any complaints or whingeing, especially of the "this benifits XXXX race too much" kind?

 

[tschuma]

Movement Priority - seems like a silly Idea, come back once you have tested it and demonstrated that it isn't too complicated; doesn't change the game too much while it actually solves the sink problem.

If you really want to solve the whole boresight/init sink problem try playing move and fire. We started using it a while back, it's awesome. When you use move and fire with a boresight fleet you can actually dedicate all your stratagy towards trying to beat the enemy. Rather than trying to beat the stupid initiative system.

All the fixes, house rules, special action, etc that try and solve the init sink issue are just bandages on a rotten leg. So we got rid of the leg altogether. And truthfully, the game is that much better for it.

Can you explain your turn sequence? How do you handle Fighters?

 

[Banichi]

Roll for init as normal

Winner of the roll decides whos fighters move first. Once all fighters have moved, resolve dogfights, attacks on ships, etc.

Player who won init then decides who activates a ship/squadron first. When you activate a ship you do all its turns actions, move and fire. Then the other player activates a ship/squadron, and once those ships have done their thing it's your turn again. Each player take turns activating stuff until all ships have been moved. Then its on to the end phase, which proceeds as normal.

To sum up, a turn goes like this.

-Players A and B roll for init (Lets say player A won)

-Player B moves fighters (player A wanted to be able to react)

-Player A moves fighters

-Dogfights/attacks on ships resolved.

-Player A decides to activate a ship first. Ship moves and fires.

-Player B activates a ship. Ship moves and fires.

-Player A activates a ship.

And so forth until all ships/squadrons have done their thing.

-End phase. Both players launch fighters, repair, move drifters, etc

Any complaints or whingeing, especially of the "this benifits XXXX race too much" kind?

No. Between us my group play a good selection of races, (dilgar, drakk, drazi, gaim being the only ones that we don't have) and we havn't found any particular race to have been made OTT by move and fire. Like I said in my last post, it makes boresight based fleets more competitive. But it doesn't slew the game their way.

At first we thought it might make squadrons more powerful, and yes they can be scary. But by squadroning you give the person you are playing against more units of activation. Which can lead to a squadron being chopped to bits before, or after it has done its thing. And past a certain point in a game people seem to break up squadrons, to send the componant ships off with their own tasks. Or simply to increase the units of activation in their fleet.

One of the thing people on the forum didn't like was the prospect of a powerful ship/squadron moving and firing last in a turn, then first in the next turn. To tell you the truth, it's not that big a problem. The thing about move and fire is that it encourages you to use your big stuff, be it a single war level ship, or a big squadron of skirmish ships, first. If you leave them to the end of the turn they might get destroyed before they do anything. So setting up for a move last/first play is a bit risky. And lets face it ACTA is a dice game. You don't always get the initiative when you want it. And we have all had huge attack rolls go pear shaped, and result in just one or two hits. Both these examples can leave your move last/first ship or squadron out on a limb.

The prime example of how a move last/first play can go west was when my mate tryed to set it for his vree. We both started the game with the same number of units of activation, and he had a squadron of the skirmish torpedo saucers hidden behind a small asteroid field. His thinking was to SM out from behind the asteroid with his last activation, and shoot me up. Then SM back behind the asteroids with his first activation of the next turn. Well, the first part went to plan. Then he lost the init roll, and I ripped the saucers a new one with two hyperions I had squadroned before they could get back in cover.

Move and fire does change the way the game feels. Like I said before, it encourages you to use your big guns first, and then react with your little stuff. Which kind of feels right. What we found with the rules as written was that little stuff tended to go first, be it so your big guys could boresight something worthwhile, or to sink out your opponant, to stop him from boresight something worthwhile.

Basically move and fire stops the whole "my battle level ship is right in front of you, but you can't shoot it with your battle level ship because of my patrol level ship over here behind a dust cloud" thing. Which, for as long as we have played has been the One Great Fault with ACTA. And it does it in a way that doesn't need you to muck about changing ship stats, and it doesn't effect how special actions work.

If you can talk your other players into giving it a try I'm sure you will find the effort worthwhile.

 

[E-Mines Hurt]

Just to ask further

Boresight - I get the impression that they are overstrength because you can't always fire them. Now you can and the weapons are still stronger than F arc beams.

Breaching Pods - A ship with a breaching pod or two on board which moves after another ship can move it's full speed (lets call that 8") running scramble scramble, launch the two breaching pods 3" in the direction of the enemy ship and then in the end phase the breaching pod can move a further 6" for most races and you have just moved a breaching pod 17" without (apart from fighters) possible response from the enemy. Previously you could try to (in addition to using fighters) destroy the assault ship before it launched pods and to move out of the range of the pods.

Special Actions - Presumably this would mean that the Drazi Attack Run SA is pointless, unless you want to try to shoot and possibly ram a ship? What about Close Blast Doors or Intensify Defensive Fire? Do they apply from ship move to ship move can the side with initiative attack a CBD or IDF ship before it activates the action? When is scouting done?

 

[Banichi]

Just to ask further

Boresight - I get the impression that they are overstrength because you can't always fire them. Now you can and the weapons are still stronger than F arc beams.

We havn't found boresight beams to be really overstrength compared with f arc. They still effect (ie point directly at target) how you can move your ship, and that balances against the freedom of movement granted by arcs.

Breaching Pods - A ship with a breaching pod or two on board which moves after another ship can move it's full speed (lets call that 8") running scramble scramble, launch the two breaching pods 3" in the direction of the enemy ship and then in the end phase the breaching pod can move a further 6" for most races and you have just moved a breaching pod 17" without (apart from fighters) possible response from the enemy. Previously you could try to (in addition to using fighters) destroy the assault ship before it launched pods and to move out of the range of the pods.

No offence, and I just might not be getting the gist of your question, but I'm not sure you are using Breaching pods right.

When you use the special action launch breaching pods and shuttles you don't actually get to put them on the table. They are counted as part of the attack on the enemy ship within 4.

When they are on the table they count as having the fighter trait, and move in the fighter phase, not the end phase. Although I like your idea for getting them in close, if you don't get the init next turn they will be pounced on by fighters.

Also you still declare your SA when you move your ship, so if your opponant still has any unactivated ships the assault ship might get pounded before it can launch its pods in the end phase.

Special Actions - Presumably this would mean that the Drazi Attack Run SA is pointless, unless you want to try to shoot and possibly ram a ship? What about Close Blast Doors or Intensify Defensive Fire? Do they apply from ship move to ship move can the side with initiative attack a CBD or IDF ship before it activates the action? When is scouting done?

We don't play Drazi, so I have to confess that Drazi attack run hasn't even crossed our minds.

As for Close blast doors, and intensify defensive fire. We hate Close blast doors, and never use it. For one, it slows down gameplay, which is a pain in the bum. And for two, it makes no sense as a SA. What are warships doing going into battle with all their internal doors flapping around open. And I can honestly say I don't remember ever even using intensify defensive fire. There always seems to be a better SA to use. Maybe thats just us, I don't know. :lol: If you decide to try move and fire just run with what feels best in regards for those two SA.

Scouting is done when the scout ship is activated. So to get any real benifit from it scouts really need to move early in the turn. Which kind of feels right, it's no good reporting info concerning the enemy after battle is joined.

Remember move and fire is about as unofficial as it gets, so if you give it a try feel free to tweek it anyway you like. I would be interested to know how it goes though.

 

[E-Mines Hurt]

No offence, and I just might not be getting the gist of your question, but I'm not sure you are using Breaching pods right.

When you use the special action launch breaching pods and shuttles you don't actually get to put them on the table. They are counted as part of the attack on the enemy ship within 4.

When they are on the table they count as having the fighter trait, and move in the fighter phase, not the end phase. Although I like your idea for getting them in close, if you don't get the init next turn they will be pounced on by fighters.

I'm not talking about the "Launch Shuttles and Breaching Pods" Special Action, but rather the Breaching Pod Auxillary flight. Most (iirc) races can exchange breaching pod flights for fighter flights. The idea is as follows

Target Ship Moves and Fires

Assaulting Ship Moves and Fires (moves 8")

End Phase - Assaulting ship launches Breaching Pod Flights 3" towards the Target Ship

Roll Initiative

Fighter Phase, If side with assaulting ship wins initiative breaching pod flight moves a further 6" and latches on to target.

Basically the assaulting ship can move, launch pod flight and flight can move into contact without the target ship being able to do anything.

Or, maybe, this is you cunning plan for your next gaming day?

 

[Banichi]

If you successfully pull it off then good on you. I guess you would have to try and move the assult ship as your last activation, and hope he hasn't got something left to shoot it with.

If there are fighters acting in support of your target, or he gets initiative, and has fighters in range, then the pods could be in trouble. And they still have to get past any anti-fighter dice. But that's the nature of breaching pods, your idea at least gives them a good chance at reaching their target. And it could be do-able with the rules at written, you would just have to cross your fingers that the assulting ship lives long enough to launch the pods.

 

[CZuschlag]

Actually, it's extremely hard to do it as written; the ships that could be affected by the Breaching Pods can Fire, and (more importantly) move before the Breaching Pods attach. This allows for fleet reorganization, moving out of movement range of the pods (which is typically pretty small) and movement of a Escort to guarding range to lend more A-F dice. Breaching Pods are a very tricky weapon to use in general as it stands, because of the delays they encounter. Changing this changes the nature of marine combat, and close-range combat itself. The Abbai, in particular, with their short-ranged Quad Arrays and moderate to low Trooper scores, would be in a bad way. Without Bimiths, they'd be done like dinner.

Oh, heck -- forgot -- my Drakh! Almost no AF to speak of, have to get to close range with the Raiders to fire, no side guns to speak of on the raider-style fleets, almost no troopers and small crew scores on ships whose primary capability is supposed to be durability -- this would be a substantial balance problem for them. EA could use this by swapping their fighters for pods on many mainline ships of the line, such as hyperions and the like, and create huge area-denial weapons. Can't intercept with fighters (what fighters??) NOT good. Major balance problem.