Houserules; Feedback please

[E-Mines Hurt]

I just have a few houserules my group is using and I am considering suggesting. I'd like some feedback on how these might work.


1 - Ship availability.

Why? - To prevent results of battles being determined by fleet selection.

Examples include showing up with bluestars only in a blockade, by the time the blockader can shoot the bluestars on APTE have moved 48", or the width of the table; and showing up with only fighters an enemy with no fighters and little AF.

What? - The idea is to first of all enforce race character on fleets without banning special ability ships while making the fleet selection predictable. Ships all get classified as Standard, Common, Uncommon, Rare and Unique. Half your FAP must be standard ships, either one ship or one FAP can be of each uncommon type , no more than one FAP and one ship can be of rare type, only one ship can be each unique type and the rest can be common.

Standard - all ships seen on the show or ships with official variants.
Common - all other ships
Uncommon - all ships that are variants, scouts and with fluff describing their uncommoness
Rare - ships with fluff describing their rairity, armageddon ships and home made or unofficial expansion ships
Unique - with the Unique trait

Only exceptions I have off the top of my head are White Stars (scouts) being common and Warlocks (on the show) being uncommon.

So if your enemy is playing against Crusade EA he knows half the opposing fleet will be Omegas, Hyperions, Chronos', Auroras and Thundergbolts and can plan thereafter. On the other hand, however, the Crusade player know half your fleet is Primus', Altarians, Centurions, Vorchans and Havens.


2 - Active movement first

Why? - initiative sinking is a problem, but it also a feature. Using ship movements tactically is part of the game, but it feels both unfair and unrealistic that a patrol boat well out of range of the combat and hiding behind a dust cloud would seriously affect the overall plan of a major battle.

What? - Movement priority of ships is as follows

1 - Ships that can shoot
2 - Ships that can be shot at
3 - Ships that can perform actions that affect the battle (scouting, jump gates, launch fighters etc.)
4 - Remaining ships

This naturally changes per phase. Two sides star far apart approaching could sink (almost) like normal until one side either put his own ship within range (after movement) of an enemy long range ship or put one of the enemy ships within range of his long range weapons. Sinking is still possible, but any sink would be on a suicide mission rather than a sight-seeing mission. Tactics become more interesting, for example you can force the Warlock to move if you place a patrol boat within 43" of him straight ahead (unless some other ship can also shoot at it). Note, the Warlock doesn't have to boresight the patrol boat, it merely has to make the choice thus deciding it's movement.

This also means that a boresighted fleet cannot be rendered impotent by destroying it's sinks, plus that in order to give sink benefits to bigger ships sinks must risk death.

 

[G Quan]

I ´am not a fan of more restrictions to setup my fleet.
The point with max one FAP of unofficial ships I like (without the secund part with the Armageddon ships)
Think the most of us play most times against the same opposing player and their fleets. I (and I think my opposing to) will not see the half of the last 4-5 games fleet every time again :wink:

At the movement all ships on table are part of the fleet and the inisink is in some ways and against some fleets the only way to win the Ini in the first turns. (Minbari +4, Shadow +6 // Abbai -2)
The outnumbert fleet have to fight the smal ones away and this is the way to get the Ini back, the only way and thats ok.

I think you got a little prob with one ISA player in your group that exact know to setup his fleet?
Play a campaigne and let him face a big Narn fleet in the first turns
After loseing the half campaigne fleet and all Blue Stars; may be it will be easyer for the rest of you.

 

[E-Mines Hurt]

In a skirmish level convoy battle EA defending against Narn, the Narn didn't bring any EMines and the EA brought only fighters.

In a blockade scenario ISA brought only bluestarts and ran across the entire table before anybody could react.

In an raid level ACTA scenario the Narn brought only EMine ships against the ISA.

And, the ISA has the option of either following the Ship availability rules or using the Army of Light.

 

[Da Boss]

interesting ideas

initial problems I can see

Some fleets (most League) have zero "standard ships"

Abbai and Gaim

I would need to see the list of what is on the Show - eg the Primus - are the ships seen the Primus or a Secondus? Also it would not stop your example as the Blue Star appears in the show IIRC and so is a "Standad ship"?

Not sure I really understand the Iniaitive variance idea? Can you expand on how it works please

 

[G Quan]

At you examples you stated ...all emine ships, all fighter,all blue stars, why not a real fleet? Are all people in your group powergamer?
May be, you need some houserules to stop this, but we do not.
Outside ower campaign (there is war) no one setup fleets like this^. :wink:

 

[Burger]

1) I also don't like more restrictions on my fleet selection. Blue Stars in Blockade can be shot at on the second turn of movng, they can move 24"onto the table in turn 1 which puts them on the centre line, and then the second turn another 48" puts them on the table edge (not off it). Besides if you're an ISA commander and you need to break through a blockade... why wouldn't you send just your fastest ships?

2) I think this would cause more problems than it solves. Especially, how do you put ships into the categories? Ships that could shoot last turn, or ships that coulld shoot this turn after they make ther move? What if you plan to do something but don't have the target, fail the CQ check, or the enemy moves such that you now can fire? Just adds too much compication IMO.

 

[l33tpenguin]

I've seen a number of attempts at breaking init sinking, this one is probably one of the more difficult to implement. ACtA is supposed to a fast paced game, too many strange and time consuming rules slow things down. The BEST way I've seen to eliminate sinking is to require each player to move a full (or greater) FAP at a time. This also speeds up game play a little as more ships are being moved at once. Of course, as the battle goes on, the advantage does go to the winning player (which makes sense...) as they will get more activations if they have more FAP worth of ships on the table.

 

[E-Mines Hurt]

1 - The idea that each fleet has 1 standard ship in all priorities except war and armageddon (common or uncommon) and (rare). Unless fluff calls a ship rare or uncommon Lakaras and Bimiths would be standard for abbai etc. My proposed availabilities were first draughts. Revision will naturally occur. But a fixed balanced list is needed.

2 - Yes, all the players in my group are wargamers and rules lawyers, nit pickers, power gamers, bad losers and bad winners.

3 - The idea for the active movement first idea

At the start of each movement phase you first identify if any of your ships could move into a firing position if it wanted, one of those ships must the move for this phase. It doesn't have to move to the take the shot.

For example an earth alliance fleet consisting of 1 Omega and 3 Chronos' are all 36" away from an enemy ship. The Omega can take a shot, it can move toward the enemy ship more than 6" and then line up the boresight, the 3 Chronos' cannot, since with APTE and the Rail Gun they can only hit at target 27" ahead of them. If the enemy ship were 26" away the EA player could choose which ship to move, he doesn't have to attack that ship, but he must move a ship which could. The target ship can be an enemy ship which has not yet moved.

As the enemy approaches then you would expect more enemy ships to come into range as the movement phase moves on.

You continue doing this until you have no more ships which could take a shot. Now can see if any of your ships can be shot at before moving. You can move this ships until you have no more ships which can be shot at before moving.

Then you move ships which can perform SAs which affect other ships and then you move ships which cannot attack, be attacked or do special actions.

Basically it prevents you from sinking with ships which cannot do anything to you and those which are outside the tactical scope of the battle.

 

[Da Boss]

1 - The idea that each fleet has 1 standard ship in all priorities except war and armageddon (common or uncommon) and (rare). Unless fluff calls a ship rare or uncommon Lakaras and Bimiths would be standard for abbai etc. My proposed availabilities were first draughts. Revision will naturally occur. But a fixed balanced list is needed.

2 - Yes, all the players in my group are wargamers and rules lawyers, nit pickers, power gamers, bad losers and bad winners.

3 - The idea for the active movement first idea

At the start of each movement phase you first identify if any of your ships could move into a firing position if it wanted, one of those ships must the move for this phase. It doesn't have to move to the take the shot.

For example an earth alliance fleet consisting of 1 Omega and 3 Chronos' are all 36" away from an enemy ship. The Omega can take a shot, it can move toward the enemy ship more than 6" and then line up the boresight, the 3 Chronos' cannot, since with APTE and the Rail Gun they can only hit at target 27" ahead of them. If the enemy ship were 26" away the EA player could choose which ship to move, he doesn't have to attack that ship, but he must move a ship which could. The target ship can be an enemy ship which has not yet moved.

As the enemy approaches then you would expect more enemy ships to come into range as the movement phase moves on.

You continue doing this until you have no more ships which could take a shot. Now can see if any of your ships can be shot at before moving. You can move this ships until you have no more ships which can be shot at before moving.

Then you move ships which can perform SAs which affect other ships and then you move ships which cannot attack, be attacked or do special actions.

Basically it prevents you from sinking with ships which cannot do anything to you and those which are outside the tactical scope of the battle.

I am not totally against different rareties of ships - but there will be difficulties - for instance - all the Shadow and Vorlon ships will always be "Standard" as they only have one ship in each PL (excluding my DR ships)

In sinking - I see what you are trying to do but:

Often In sink ships are either very fast and maneuvable or have good range if low AD weapons.

Lets take the example of several Blue Stars (or havens, Hermes, Missile ShoKov, etc) in one fleet. The player normally uses them as In inks behind dust clouds etc.

now the new movement version.

the player works out that with base spd 16 (24 on APTE), 8" range guns and 2 90 degree turns Blue Star 1 and 2 could reach weapons range if they charged through the dust cloud - so the player nominates them for his first two ships but of course does not actually move them fowards - so exactly the same thing happens? Unless you are going to say that a nominated ship must move into firing range then I don't think it will work as you intend.
Also even presuming this is the case - each time a ship moves, the dynamic for whether or not a given ship can shoot will change.

the only thing I can suggest at this stage is to try it and let us know how it works - but I must admit at first glance it does seem quite complicated.

 

[l33tpenguin]

Ships that can shoot moving first renders boresight ships almost completely worthless.

The majority of boresight ships, especially the larger ones, have extreme ranges ensuring that they will be the first in range and almost always have a target to shoot at. This ensures that they will almost always have to more first. Because of this, even if that Warlock did have a target to line up with its bore, that target will more than likely get to move after it.

Also, is APTE factored in? What happens if you move a ship into range of a ship that previously didn't have an applicable target?

If anything, this sort of rule favors small fast ships with short range weapons.
It also adds A LOT of paperwork to the game. You have to check the speed and range of every ship before the movement phase and determine which are in which category. Thats a lot of work, especially with larger fleets

You also bring up questions of 'would vs could' I could APTE my ship through that asteroid field to get in range but obviously I wouldn't because my ship is unlikely to survive the damage take. I could use APTE with the afterburner on my Victory into a gravity well and use it to slingshot and end up on the other side of the board, thus putting it in range of... something, but would I?

 

[E-Mines Hurt]

Special actions should not be factored in, that adds hypotheticals and naturally the problem of a Come About or a Track that Target succeeding.

Yes, as other ships move, more and more ships might gain the ability to attack. That is the intention.

As for the paperwork. I dont' think there will be any. You just need to ask yourself at the start of each movement impulse what ships could shoot if the enemy declared all stop?. If the answer is a, b and c, then you move a, b or c. If the answer is none then you ask which ships could be attacked if the movement phase ended now that have not moved. If it is a, b and c then move a, b or c. If the answer is none then you ask which ships can perform actions or traits useful to other ships (escort, scout, defensive grid etc.) and so on until you only have irrelevant ships left.

Initially in the approach phase you may be forced to fire on a less than ideal ship due to the long range of your boresight or be forced to define the "cone of danger" of your F or P or S weapons. I concede this is a problem.

 

[Da Boss]

As I noted beofre often In sink ships are either very fast and maneuvable or have good range if low AD weapons.

Lets take the example of several Blue Stars (or havens, Hermes, Missile ShoKov, etc) in one fleet. The player normally uses them as In inks behind dust clouds etc.

now the new movement version.

the player works out that with base spd 16, 8" range guns and 2 90 degree turns Blue Star 1 and 2 could reach weapons range if they charged through the dust cloud - so the player nominates them for his first two ships but of course does not actually move them fowards - so exactly the same thing happens?

Unless you are going to say that a nominated ship must move into firing range then I don't think it will work as you intend. Not seen anything that handles this issue, unless I am missing something?

 

[Greg Smith]

What happens later in he game, when every ship can shoot?

 

[Burger]

What happens if a ship can't shoot at first, but then an enemy ship moves such that your ship can now move into a shooting position?

What about a ship that can't get into a firing position right now, but there is a target that is lumbering and has taken a "no special actions" crit, which will be a valid target since it must move into range this turn?

With a group of powergamers and rules lawyers, I think they'd pick so many holes in your init system that you'll be sick of hearing about it!!

 

[AdrianH]

1: Ship availability: personally I'd like to see more ships as seen on TV and fewer ships invented by AoG or Mongoose. Realistically, most players won't have factored such restrictions in when buying their fleets so any such restriction is probably unworkable. As for the example of Blue Stars in a blockade, it is true that they can cross the table without being shot at once. It is also true that anything with speed at least 12 can cross the table and be shot at exactly once (APE on turn 1, CBD on turn 2, APE on turn 3). Blockade is almost unwinnable by the blockader unless you make up some sort of rule which basically says your fleet can't use the ship most logical for a blockade run.

2: as has been pointed out, the movement priority rules won't help much. Moreover, if your group are "wargamers and rules lawyers, nit pickers, power gamers", then complicated rules will cause more problems than they solve. Lawyers are the result of over-complicated laws, not the solution.

I like the solution to init sinking which was used at the Kettering tournament. 2 or 3 FAP and (at least) one ship must be (at least) the same PL as the scenario. It could be a problem for the Drazi if it's a Battle or War level scenario. (Drazi are always a problem for any scheme to reduce init sinking. ) Perhaps keep Drazi for low level scenarios or start playing League or Army of Light.

 

[Burger]

Drazi aren't that bad now with TTT... if you can ever make the $%&£(% roles!!!

 

[E-Mines Hurt]

What happens if a ship can't shoot at first, but then an enemy ship moves such that your ship can now move into a shooting position?

What about a ship that can't get into a firing position right now, but there is a target that is lumbering and has taken a "no special actions" crit, which will be a valid target since it must move into range this turn?

With a group of powergamers and rules lawyers, I think they'd pick so many holes in your init system that you'll be sick of hearing about it!!

At the time, this house rule makes no presumption on what a ship will do. You may start with a fleet with no firing option and a scout, the scout must move first. Then the enemy move a ship forward, then you must move one of the ships that can now fire.

 

[E-Mines Hurt]

What happens later in he game, when every ship can shoot?

Then every ship can be chosen to move, just as in a normal game.

 

[Da Boss]

At the time, this house rule makes no presumption on what a ship will do. You may start with a fleet with no firing option and a scout, the scout must move first. Then the enemy move a ship forward, then you must move one of the ships that can now fire.

big question - do you have to move the ship into range - or can you declare the ship and either not move it or move it behind terrain rather than into danger?

 

[AdrianH]

Shadows: start by moving a Scout into the limits of range of the biggest enemy ship. This ship is now obliged to move because it can theoretically shoot at a target with stealth 5+ at long range. Repeat until you run out of Scouts. Then you move your big ships into place to attack the enemy big ships without being shot at.

Energy mines can always shoot. G'Kariths, Sataakas and Shuukas, as well as any Olympus or Missile Chronos loaded with a fusion bomb, can act as init sinks without having to expose themselves to fire.

Rules lawyers are going to have fun with group 3, "Ships that can perform actions that affect the battle". Any ship can perform an action which will affect the battle - if it moves, the other players is forced to move another ship, thus affecting the battle. Or it can theoretically go at full speed into the nearest asteroid belt and explode, theoretically catch another ship in the blast and theoretically get a 666 critical - just because it can doesn't mean it must try to do this.

And finally, if the players in your group are "rules lawyers, nit pickers, power gamers, bad losers and bad winners", and you try to introduce new rules which might get in their way, they'll just veto the rules anyway and insist on playing official rules.