Hibernia?

[xeoran]

Thanks, very interesting. I'm sure I've heard of the remains of that fort before, time for a bit more research.

Most Romano-British experditions/raids of course would lack documentation (When I say Romano British I'm thinking roughly from the first appearences of Saxons onwards) for the usual reasons (breakdown of civil service, wear and tear, local actions etc)

 

[emperorpenguin]

Thanks, very interesting. I'm sure I've heard of the remains of that fort before, time for a bit more research.

Most Romano-British experditions/raids of course would lack documentation (When I say Romano British I'm thinking roughly from the first appearences of Saxons onwards) for the usual reasons (breakdown of civil service, wear and tear, local actions etc)

I thought it was rubbish when I first heard about it until I read a few years ago that aside from "The Gallic Wars" we have no evidence that Rome invaded Britain in 55BC. Makes you realise just how fragmentary the historical record really is!

 

[Richgo22]

A little histroy session. . . nice. But Hibernia still is. . . in our SST-hearts.

 

[xeoran]

Thanks, very interesting. I'm sure I've heard of the remains of that fort before, time for a bit more research.

Most Romano-British experditions/raids of course would lack documentation (When I say Romano British I'm thinking roughly from the first appearences of Saxons onwards) for the usual reasons (breakdown of civil service, wear and tear, local actions etc)

I thought it was rubbish when I first heard about it until I read a few years ago that aside from "The Gallic Wars" we have no evidence that Rome invaded Britain in 55BC. Makes you realise just how fragmentary the historical record really is!

Very true, the one that gobsmacked me recently was that the Teutoberger forest battle between Varus and Arminus (or Hermann) was fought not in woods but on open ground in formations.

Only one source...phew...

 

[emperorpenguin]

Very true, the one that gobsmacked me recently was that the Teutoberger forest battle between Varus and Arminus (or Hermann) was fought not in woods but on open ground in formations.

Only one source...phew...

Really? I'd not heard that! The accepted history is they were ambushed Last of the Mohicans style!

Any linkage on that?

 

[xeoran]

Really? I'd not heard that! The accepted history is they were ambushed Last of the Mohicans style!

Any linkage on that?

Uh not really I'm afraid. Sadly like you I read it in a book whose name I cant remember. I think Terry Jones "Barbarian" TV series might have covered it but I cant be sure.

The basic idea goes that Arminus lured Varus into several square miles of open ground in the middle of a forest with a swamp at the Romans back. They then somehow beat them (remember Arminues was ex-Roman army so its a possibility that like some of Caractacus men they aped Roman tactics and formations), possibly through manouver (obviously there are no real sources) and forced them to flee. The Romans then got stuck in the marsh/swampy outskirts where many of them were cut down. The remains found by Germanicus and his merry butchering lads were probably those fleeing, advance guards that were ambushed or corpses/bits of corpses moved there for religious rites, warnigns etc.

 

[The jeske]

ehhh guys I've been there a few times . and I wouldn't call it an open plain . there are lots of hills there . You could hide an army there . and trust me there are woods there (after 2k years of deforestation in germany).

there are lots of small rivers ,dykes and marshes . Fighting in tight formation is not a good idea , when you go one a plank and there are swap an marshes all around and the enemy is throwing spears and shoting with bows.

 

[xeoran]

ehhh guys I've been there a few times . and I wouldn't call it an open plain . there are lots of hills there . You could hide an army there . and trust me there are woods there (after 2k years of deforestation in germany).

there are lots of small rivers ,dykes and marshes . Fighting in tight formation is not a good idea , when you go one a plank and there are swap an marshes all around and the enemy is throwing spears and shoting with bows.

I've been there too. No apparently the site of the battle is a couple of miles of open terrain in the forest.

 

[The jeske]

but ther are hills all around. and troops attacking down hill have more power.

Have you seen the number of old wind and water mills there? Stuning .And some still work. And the monument on the hill. It's not rio Jesus but still big.

 

[Richgo22]

The actual battle location is not where the monument is placed. The former swamp was partly farmland in recent centuries, known as "goldacker", because many a coin was found when plowing.

Estimations are the Armeinus attacked the march collum, which was several miles long. When he attacks, many parts of the marching legions had no hint of what was going on.

Many weapons and a lot of equipment was found at the battle location, which is very long. I myself can only surmise that treachery was as good as an weapon than hit and run tactics for the Germans.

The romans where no big tacticans in battle, unlike Hanibal ot Phyrus. So I never understood what was the big point in beating them up.

And for the Germans. . . the did not maul the Romans for their conquest to the river Elbe. . . they slew them because they tried to impose taxes on the German tribes. . .

 

[The jeske]

well the monument is on a big hill it would be hard to flush 3 legions out of there :lol:

 

[xeoran]

Well the reason beating Romans is such a big thing is because of their discipline and training. Its the equivalent of a bunch of ferocious Japanese schoolgirls beating the US army today. That and the Romans equipment, technological and logistical genius.

 

[Richgo22]

That are the old prejudices. . .

The site of the monument - choosen in the 18th century with a total lack of historical knowlege.

Roman technology - cheap copies og celtic technology. Nearly all weapons and armour were stolen an concept and design.

Roman logistics - why do you think the romans were so shocked of Hanibals advance thorugh the Alpes. . . they thought it impossible!

Amercian discipline. . . dude, do not make me laugh, after the reports from battlefields in the last 60 years and nowadays. I do not want to insult nobody. . . but japanese schoolgirls know a lot more about dicipline than the most of the Amercian soldiery.

 

[xeoran]

Yes many of the pieces of Roman equipment were nicked from the gauls (the helmet in particular) BUT only they used the same equipment- allowing for real logistics- on every man. Not only that but again unlike most enemies they used short swords which are the best form of melee weapon in formations at that time. They also actually use tightly drilled formations, they train to fight, they are professionals, they use forts, siege weaponary etc.

As for the US army, well I'e heard of some shockign lapses but they remain a trained and well equipped army. Compared to enemies like the Taliban or Militias they are the height of discipline (though I dont believe them to be the most disciplined in the world).

 

[The jeske]

Weren't the gladius taken from the etrusk . The chain mail was also a gaul idea .

Guerilla fighters (or freedom fighters) don't need discipline. And I've seen ami troops in kuweit well they are normal men and women [the elit units are a diffrent thing] . Nothing fancy . And the national guard is well ahh well they sure are armed good.

 

[xeoran]

Weren't the gladius taken from the etrusk . The chain mail was also a gaul idea .

Guerilla fighters (or freedom fighters) don't need discipline. And I've seen ami troops in kuweit well they are normal men and women [the elit units are a diffrent thing] . Nothing fancy . And the national guard is well ahh well they sure are armed good.

Not sure where the gladius is from though I wouldnt be surpised if it was a nicked idea. The chain mail is Gallic (though the Lorica Segmentum isnt) but again its a case of the Roamns using it in large numbers, in formation and training with it.

Actually Guerillas do need discipline. Look up the bad effects lack of disipline had on the Marquis 1944-45.

Yes the Americans are normal, soldiers are normal. The fact is until you see them in combat or read accounts then I dont think you will see the difference. How come the Americans won the Second Gulf War so easily? It sure wasnt numbers, in fact I think they were outnumbered 4-1 or something similar even tkaing allies into account. The truth is that the American army is comprised of well equipped professional soldiers. Yes I do think there are better infantry but not many- feel free to name some "superior" troops.

 

[Hiromoon]

Apparently the Gladius comes from the Celtberians (Celts living in Spain on the Iberian Peninsula).... From some of the accounts I've read on Gladiators, the Gladius origionated in the games because the Romans were showing the Roman Public their ancient enemies.. (think of it as OpFor, since many of the Gladiators were origionally from the regions conquered by the Romans, and the fights were to showcase their enemy's fighting styles to the public, though the games themselves were origionally funeral rites).

 

[Mage]

Looks like Hiro beat you on this one Xeoran.

 

[The jeske]

Yes I do think there are better infantry but not many- feel free to name some "superior" troops.

well it does depend what you want to do . do that what americans do or wage a real war. Russians and chinesse(am sure I wrote it wrong ) are very good at ending wars . americans are good at wining.


Well am a XVII cent historian but weren't teh burial rites that romans used very much based on teh etrusk ones. Like the gladiator games were a form of makeing human sacriffice.

 

[xeoran]

Looks like Hiro beat you on this one Xeoran.

We cant win 'em all! :wink: Bet I can beat him on the Hussites though! :lol:

well it does depend what you want to do . do that what americans do or wage a real war. Russians and chinesse(am sure I wrote it wrong ) are very good at ending wars . americans are good at wining.

Well am a XVII cent historian but weren't teh burial rites that romans used very much based on teh etrusk ones. Like the gladiator games were a form of makeing human sacriffice.

Whats a "real" war then? Major conventional war? In which case the last 3 cases are draw, win, win (Korea, WW2 and barely WW1)

Hmm...which wars has China ended recently?

As for the Russians- well how about Chechnya? Thats been going longer than Iraq or Afghanistan and of course the Russians there arent hampered by a bad political situation, different religious groups, an invasive media, a need to help the locals or many other things.

I feel I should also point out the question was about soldiers- can you name me a nation whos basic infantryman rates over a US one? I can think of a few but I'm interested in your answer.

And yes, the Romans nicked a lot from the Etruscans. Gladiatorial games were originally burial ceremonies.