HELP! Size and Mass

[Rikki Tikki Traveller]

I realize this is probably a VERY old D100 question, but is there anyone that can tell me how to correlate the Size characteristic with the Mass or Length/Height of a creature?

I have Monsters of Legend, but it just made things more confusing.

I DO realize that it is not a straight transition, but I have several RealWorld animals I want to stat up in Legend and I have NO IDEA what their Size should be.

As an Example:

Humans: Average Size: 13, Average Length: 1.7m, Average Mass: 60-70kg
Wild Boar: Average Size: 10, Average Length: 1.5m, Average Mass: 70kg
Cow: Average Size: 16, Average Length: 2m, Average Mass: 1000kg
Chimpanzee: Average Size: 13, Average Length: 1.5m, Average Mass: 50kg

The Cow seems REALLY off (from MoL), it has about the same mass as an Aligator, but an Aligator is 5m long and has a Size of 40!

16 for Cow and 40 for Aligator just doesn't feel right.

I have read and reread the Legend book and I still don't see how to figure out what the Size of a creature should be.

HELP!!!!!!!!!

(thanks)

 

[Dan True]

It is very abstract, and not only a measure of the height * width * mass of the creature.
Think of it as how compact, heavy, dense etc. (combined with its size) the creature is. A cow has low size because frankly.. It's mostly a stomach and milk-production walking around - if you took a sword to its belly, it would slice directly into organs - so it is not very "dense" so to speak. It hasn't a muscle in its body apart from its legs and its gums (I am using the cows I knows, milk cows from Denmark as an example.. properly cows in other countries are different, especially cattle designated for beef).

An alligator though, is tightly packed muscles, condensed into a rather long but small and slender body.

Although, the cow may be off a tad.. I would give it a 14 or 15 instead, due to them being rather heavy and large.. but properly not more.

So, to give a creature its SIZ characteristic think on the following:

"Hit points is based on CON + SIZ".
I wan't my alligator to have a lot of hit points, because it is a dangerous animal and it should be reflected as such. However, simply giving it a high CON will also mean it can run far distances, carry heavy burdens etc.. which properly isn't true.
Sooh, to have high HP but an average CON - I must give it a high SIZ. The SIZ here reflects that it is a compact killing machine, with thick skin (some of that will be reflected by a high natural armour also) etc.
The result: A creature with a SIZ that is properly too high for its mass and length, but is appropriate for reflecting its deadly nature (i.e. - it knows how to use its weight, and that weight is used on muscle and jaws, not on fat).

Now, for the COW:

The cow should not be a particularly dangerous animal. A herd might tramble you, but an ordinary milk cow will simply become beef it you take a sword at it (a bull or an ox is another tale). Sooh, I don't want it to have a lot of HP, but I cannot really give it an below-average CON, since it can walk all day in the sun without problems.. So, to attain low HP, but an acceptable CON I must give it a pretty low SIZ.
The result: I give the COW a SIZ which is obviously too low for its SIZ, but gives it low HP. The low SIZ here reflects that the COW would in a fight not know how to use its bulk as a weapon, and besides most of that bulk is taken up by seven stomachs, a large milk-producing organ and fat... sooh, not particularly dangerous or "dense" meat.

At least, this is my view on the stat. Hope it helps.

- Dan

 

[Lemnoc]

I wan't my alligator to have a lot of hit points...

...The cow should not be a particularly dangerous animal. A herd might tramble you, but an ordinary milk cow will simply become beef it you take a sword at it...

A totally charming and amusing (and internally logical) reply. LOL. Marvelous.

 

[DamonJynx]

Yeah, I think Dan's interpretation is fairly sound. You have to play around a bit with the stats to get something that reflects the nature of the critter, not just its physical attributes. It's not as simple, or scientific, as taking a range of averages for different creatures and comparing them. BRP has a SIZ table that may be of some use if you can find a copy.

 

[Vile]

There is a Basic Bestiary fan document that includes a lot of animal stats IIRC. I've always taken the RQ/BRP SIZ equivalency tables with a grain of salt, and prefer to treat SIZ more or less as mass. Even if that cow isn't as dangerous as an alligator (provided it doesn't take a dislike to you), if it's the same SIZ it's the same mass.

 

[The.Maze.Controller]

There is a Basic Bestiary fan document that includes a lot of animal stats IIRC. I've always taken the RQ/BRP SIZ equivalency tables with a grain of salt, and prefer to treat SIZ more or less as mass. Even if that cow isn't as dangerous as an alligator (provided it doesn't take a dislike to you), if it's the same SIZ it's the same mass.

How much conversion is necessary if any at all to make use of those beasties?

 

[Redcrow]

I've always found the SIZ attribute to be unsatisfyingly abstract in BRP games. Half the time I just ignore it. It functions somewhat when dealing with bipedal humanoids, but falls apart rather quickly when used for other things.

When I create my own creatures I just give them whatever HP feels right regardless of what their CON or SIZ may be. If I want a creature that is CON 3 and SIZ 2 to have 150HP, then thats the way it is.

Don't even bother trying to figure out SIZ.

 

[Hopeless]

I was going with Siz x3 in inches added to a base of 2'2" so that Size 18 would result in 6' 8" and as for weight I was looking at Size x Size so that Size 10 would be 100lbs and 18 would be 324lbs but to avoid the obvious weight problem look at there being a disparity between height and weight so that its when both are compared you come to the true Size score.

Yes well its an idea anyway!

I previously thought after figuring the height to turn it into inches for kg and modify it with the following ((Str-10)+ ((Con-10)/2)- (Dex-10)).

Oh well back to the drawing board!

 

[Vile]

There is a Basic Bestiary fan document that includes a lot of animal stats IIRC.

How much conversion is necessary if any at all to make use of those beasties?

The stat block can be used as-is, although CAs would have to be worked out for use with Legend.

 

[Rikki Tikki Traveller]

Thanks for the quick responses. Obviously, it isn't a simple solution, but the Bestiary definitely helps.

Fake It!

I can do that. (but didn't want to)

 

[Lemnoc]

I was going with Siz x3 in inches added to a base of 2'2" so that Size 18 would result in 6' 8" and as for weight I was looking at Size x Size so that Size 10 would be 100lbs and 18 would be 324lbs but to avoid the obvious weight problem look at there being a disparity between height and weight so that its when both are compared you come to the true Size score.

Yes, probably one reason SIZ comparisons get sketchy is that something twice as tall/long should arguably be three times as massive (volume).

 

[Vile]

Yes, probably one reason SIZ comparisons get sketchy is that something twice as tall/long should arguably be three times as massive (volume).

This is actually an area which I think D20 got right, in using a more geometric progression of stats and sizes. I think the normal range used to work fine in Chaosium RQ2 originally because few monsters got into the truly ridiculous SIZ ranges that became more common in RQ3. I think the Society for Creative Anachronism membership of the original writers does show in the way the system revolves around humanoid, human-SIZ characters and is less well integrated when it goes outside that range.

 

[Cowboy]

Being the pedant that I am, I'd just like to mention that the average mass for a cow isn't anywhere near 1000 Kg and closer to half that amount. Granted, SIZ 16 which is well within the human range is still way, way too low.

I'd personally prefer for the SIZ stat to correlate more directly to mass or, better yet, to just disppear from the system entirely since it doesn't really do much of anything by itself - it's just a super-stat that increases that adds to STR for determining damage and to CON for determining HP.

 

[ryhopewood]

I agree with the previous posts about the abstract nature of SIZ and its relationship to mass. I think what helps is to break the relationship up into three domains.

Domain 1: Small objects.
Under the Brawn skill (Legend p. 47) we are told that SIZ equates to a mass of 3.5 kg. (As an interesting aside this is smaller than in MRQ2 where 1 SIZ = 5 kg). Obviously this does not work for human SIZ values (for example, an average SIZ = 13 would equate to a mass of only 45.5 kg and a 70 kg adult male, which is typical of today, would be SIZ 20). However, it possibly works for small objects / weapons etc.

Domain 2: Humanoids (creature SIZ 1 to 25).
You can go one of two ways here. 1 SIZ = 5 kg. This would make an average SIZ (= 13) human about 65 kg. SIZ for humanoids is also covered in the Chaosium BRP yellow book (chart p. 26). For example, SIZ = 13 equates to a height of between 175 - 180 cm and a weight 50 - 118 kg.

Domain 3: Everything else from cow to rhino to Cthulhu
There was a chart in RuneQuest 3 for creature SIZ up to 100 (RQ3 Deluxe p. 161). I think the progression was that every 8 SIZ the weight doubled. For example, SIZ 8 (50 - 54 kg), SIZ 16 (100 - 108 kg), and SIZ 24 (200 - 217 kg). A simplified version is found in the back of the Call of Cthulhu supplement Malleus Monstrorum, which gives comparative weights for up to SIZ 350 ( a whopping 1591 metric tons).

I think you can go quite specific for domains 1 and 2. I think it helps for these domains to have a specific quantified relationship. As for domain 3, I agree with others that it is not all about mass and a more suck-it and see approach is justified.

Hope this helps,

Ian