Heavy Gravity Worlders

[Lee Torres]

My question relates to what, specifically, the upper ranges of the strength attribute translate to in "real-world" terms. From some of the preview T5 materials, there's a scale described like this:

STRENGTH

Str Equivalent
0 Incapacitated.
1 Almost Incapacitated.
2 Very Weak.
3 Somewhat Weak.
4 Weak.
5 Below Average.
6 Average.
7 Average.
8 Average.
9 Above Average.
A Strong.
B Quite Strong.
C Very Strong.
D Remarkable
E Extraordinary
F Superhuman

Now, if a human character (or human sub-species) is from a high-gravity planet, are they capped at 15 (F) or can they increase beyond that? I'm wondering what, in your interpretation, a modern day Terran humans maximum strength would be - in character generation, one can roll a 12 for that, and increase beyond that from term to term - would the limit be 14 (E) since F is described as "Superhuman?"

I'm asking because I'm trying to stat the human inhabitants of Pyrrus, from Harry Harrison's "Deathworld" trilogy, and I'm just looking for what the most common notions are on this subject, since I'm undecided on the best way to address it. Should they be handled as aliens, with a 3D6 strength, or does the current layout handle it, in your opinion?

Thanks in advance!

 

[EDG]

One thing to bear in mind is that realistically the gravity on a "high gravity planet" won't be more than about 1.8G (that's for a high density world that's size 12, so definitely the high extreme). For a high density size 10 (A) world you're looking at more like 1.5G.

So don't be expecting rocky planets with surface gravities of 2G or more.

I don't really know if that extra half-g is enough to turn people into musclebound superhumans though. It means that they'd eventually tend to be shorter (tall people = heart having to do more work to pump to higher extremities), and have to get used to lugging half again as much weight around (which isn't so bad really unless you're already heavy. And extra muscle mass actually would make that harder).

I suspect heavy worlders would be shorter but they'd have more muscle (not the bulky kind) and less fat than someone from a normal gravity world.

Another thing to bear in mind is that you fall faster on a high gravity world. That means you're more likely to break bones or damage yourself, just from tripping over. Heavy worlders won't be immune to that, though perhaps their bones might evolve over the generations to become a bit thicker.

 

[Xoph]

So heavy gravity worlders would be squat, muscular, and square types... perhaps they'd have beards and drink ale and ejoy machines. I swear I've heard of a Squat abhuman like this before. :wink:

 

[rust]

I would not go beyond a Strength of E at best, with the average for High-
G humans closer to C, because I do not believe that the human biology
would be suited to better results than that.
For a Strength beyond E, one would most probably need other materials
than human muscles, sinews and bones, I think.

 

[EDG]

So heavy gravity worlders would be squat, muscular, and square types... perhaps they'd have beards and drink ale and ejoy machines. I swear I've heard of a Squat abhuman like this before. :wink:

That's the thing, I'm not sure that they would look that (fantasy) dwarf-like.

I've seen a few short, stocky adult humans around, and I think that's probably what a heavy worlder would look like too. Maybe a little bulkier and wider shouldered perhaps but I don't think they'd be as exaggerated as fantasy dwarfs.

 

[Lee Torres]

So, if the Pyrrans were on a 1.8 G world (and I believe Harrison did indicate that they were shorter than average), and the planet had been colonized by humans for several generations, would that tend to counterbalance some of the disadvantages of living on such a world? And when visiting a planet with a standard gravity, would they be stronger and more agile than terrestrial humanity, or just grouping toward the high end of what Earthmen were capable of? I'm trying to go for a realistic portrayal, and not turn them into "John Carter, Warlord of Mars" with the superhuman leaps and such...

Thanks for everyone's input so far! Keep it coming, please!

 

[rust]

I think they would be stronger than average humans, but probably not
more agile.
At least their instinct would be to avoid all actions that might unbalance
them and cause them to fall, because on their homeworld falling would
lead to very severe injuries.
In my opinion, they would seem a bit strange, with somewhat above
average strength, but very careful and perhaps somewhat insecure and
slow movements - at least until they got used to the new situation.

 

[DE Traveller]

I don't know the science of high gravity and how that compares to someone in normal gravity going around with weights on them all the time. Is that similar?

 

[EDG]

I don't know the science of high gravity and how that compares to someone in normal gravity going around with weights on them all the time. Is that similar?

Imagine being half again as heavy as you are now (for a 1.5G world). That'll do it. Everything about you weighs 1.5 times what it does now.

Or... imagine being able to jump 2/3rd as high or far with the energy you spend on jumping now. And when you land, you land that much harder because of the gravity. Going upstairs would be a fair bit harder than it is now. If you're skydiving, terminal velocity is about 22% faster than it is on Earth (assuming the same atmosphere thickness and composition - terminal velocity is proportional to the square root of g).

 

[Rikki Tikki Traveller]

Put on a 75-100 lb backpack and carry it around FOREVER. That is the effect of a 1.5g environment.

Having carried a 75lb pack on a 2-week canoe trip, I can tell you it is DAMN HEAVY. Walking even a short distance is VERY tiring. BUT, after 2 weeks, I could go close to a mile without having to stop and I wasn't carrying it all the time. So people CAN adapt, but it will take time.

 

[Shiloh]

[...imagine being able to jump 2/3rd as high or far with the energy you spend on jumping now. And when you land, you land that much harder because of the gravity...

Not so... You'll land with the same energy you took off with. Falling off your chair would hurt more though.

 

[Lee Torres]

So, from a "real world" standpoint, I think you've given me a good idea of what it would be like to live on a heavy gravity world, and it's appreciated!

From a game mechanics perspective, what are your thoughts? Should the human maximum remain at F, or should heavy gravity add a +1 or +2 (essentially having a Notable attribute, like Uplifted animals)?

In short, when the chart above says "superhuman" does that imply that it's on the charts to handle these situations, or can enough +1 Strength results turn up during character creation to put a character at 15 (F) without any unusual circumstances?

 

[Alexander Cecil]

I wouldn't give a strength bonus to high-grav worlders. Think of a heavy, 300 lb. guy; he's likely not much stronger than a 200 lb. man, even though his body is carrying 50% more weight.

In addition, most Traveller characters spend a good deal of time off their home world and jumping between stars. Since the character would no longer spend much time in a high-grav setting, he would likely lose any additional muscle mass.

Regardless, I would definitely increase their max strength. The epitome of human strength, caused by nearly-continuous heavy labor, is greater than that caused by simply living in a "heavy" environment.

 

[Lee Torres]

I wouldn't give a strength bonus to high-grav worlders. Think of a heavy, 300 lb. guy; he's likely not much stronger than a 200 lb. man, even though his body is carrying 50% more weight.

In addition, most Traveller characters spend a good deal of time off their home world and jumping between stars. Since the character would no longer spend much time in a high-grav setting, he would likely lose any additional muscle mass.

Regardless, I would definitely increase their max strength. The epitome of human strength, caused by nearly-continuous heavy labor, is greater than that caused by simply living in a "heavy" environment.

Good thoughts - what would you increase their maximum strength to?

What if you had someone that performed hard manual labor on a high gravity world? While time spent in space would certainly reduce their strength, probably faster than it would impact a standard-g native, if an individual was a power-lifter, or a construction worker (low tech more likely since a high-tech world would probably introduce machinery to assist; in the case of Pyrrus we might theorize that the jungle conditions and local fauna might cause excessive wear-and-tear on the machinery) would their maximum be 15, 16 or 17? If the character had spent their whole life on Pyrrus, but left the planet on a mission and had only been away for, say, two months, how strong would that character be?

 

[rust]

... would their maximum be 15, 16 or 17?

I still do not think so. The possibilities of the human biology are not open-
ended, and human muscles, sinews and bones have an upper limit of what
these materials can do. Therefore, I would see 14 as the ceiling for all hu-
mans, no matter where they came from and what they did.

 

[Lee Torres]

... would their maximum be 15, 16 or 17?

I still do not think so. The possibilities of the human biology are not open-
ended, and human muscles, sinews and bones have an upper limit of what
these materials can do. Therefore, I would see 14 as the ceiling for all hu-
mans, no matter where they came from and what they did.

Okay - here's the big question, and thanks, rust, for posting that response - in the Traveller rules (at least in the playtest 3.2 version - my hardback is at home right now) it says "The maximum level for a characteristic for a human character is 15."

That Marc W. Miller is saying (in the T5 chart in the first post) that 15 is "superhuman" would indicate to me that either he's misusing the word, or that a 15 is not available to humans as we are today.

So, would you draw the line for typical humanity at 14, and high gravity worlders would be one above that, or would you put that hard cap at 14? I like your idea, in that it puts a -2 to +2 mod on characteristics, and -3 only occurs when the characteristic hits 0, which is a good solid hit on a characteristic so impaired... So, rust and everybody else, what are your thoughts on that?

Thanks again to everybody that's joined in, and apologies if I'm seeming obtuse, I'm just looking for a "best practice" to handle this.

 

[rust]

I would put a hard cap at 14, but give high gravity worlders a higher
chance to reach that cap, by giving them +1 or +2 Strength, with the
mentioned upper limit at 14.

The Strength 15 would be reserved for truly very exceptional NPCs,
for example the "strongest man alive" of that High G-planet.

But this is just how I would handle it in my setting, of course other ap-
proaches are equally valid.

 

[Alexander Cecil]

Regardless, I would definitely increase their max strength. The epitome of human strength, caused by nearly-continuous heavy labor, is greater than that caused by simply living in a "heavy" environment.

Good thoughts - what would you increase their maximum strength to?

Oops, I meant to write that I definitely would not increase their max strength.

Let's do an ultra-simplified lesson in biophysics. As a rough approximation, strength increases as a square function of linear body size, while weight increases as a cubic function. This is because strength is based of the cross-sectional area of the muscle, but mass (and thus weight) is based on the volume of the animal. This is why animals only get so big - they eventually become too heavy to be lifted by their own muscles (think of the mathematical relationship between x^2 and x^3).

This relationship is going to be amplified in a high-grav environment, where weight increases even more with size, but strength does not (x^2 vs. 1.5x^3). It is quite possible that organisms will not want very much muscle tissue at all, if the weight of the tissue quickly outstrips its lifting power. It is an awful lot pain for very little gain.

Simply put, being hugely muscled is even less of an advantage in a high-grav environment than it is in a standard-grav environment. I would give no strength benefit of any kind to humans from a high-grav world.

 

[EDG]

This relationship is going to be amplified in a high-grav environment, where weight increases even more with size, but strength does not (x^2 vs. 1.5x^3). It is quite possible that organisms will not want very much muscle tissue at all, if the weight of the tissue quickly outstrips its lifting power. It is an awful lot pain for very little gain.

Simply put, being hugely muscled is even less of an advantage in a high-grav environment than it is in a standard-grav environment. I would give no strength benefit of any kind to humans from a high-grav world.

Yeah, that's pretty much what I was saying earlier - the last thing you want it MORE muscle mass to lug around in a high-G environment.

 

[Lee Torres]

Good information! I think I've got enough to move forward with - thanks, everyone, for your time and shared knowledge!